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Letting the writers do their own thing different from the comics is probably a bad idea, because that's what the second half of the season was.
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May 1, 2016 08:50
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Ninjas? In my Daredevil? It's more likely than you think. I thought the ninja stuff was kind of lovely just because of fight choreography, to be honest. The ninja poo poo from season 1 was great for me, because the magic kung-fu ninjutsu was either really story-efficient like Gao clowning Matt in the heroin factory, or intensely grueling and visceral like the Nobu fight. It's not really about thematic or plot/tone inconsistency, from my perspective. It's about the entire physical logic of those scenes. If there were a small handful of ninjas that were utter behemoths who prompted visceral, exhausting action scenes, it'd feel more like the rest of Matt's battles. The Nobu fight worked because it was desperate, kinetic, tiring, and had intense stakes. 50 identical ninjas fighting Matt and Elektra on a rooftop is Power Rangers. I'd have preferred, say, 5 ninjas who are all insanely skilled and evenly matched.
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May 1, 2016 08:50
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For all the "Ninjas are what daredevil is ABOUT, man" stuff, lets be honest; You could easily fill 10 seasons of a daredevil TV show with stuff lifted directly from daredevil comics without every once featuring a ninja, or at least not a collective noun of them. Daredevil was created in the 60s, in the last 50 years of monthly stories hes done a wide variety of poo poo, a lot of it ninja related, but a lot of it not. I mean, daredevils initial costume in the comics is a yellow and red clown suit. In the show he instead started out wearing black. Presumably because they looked at the original suit and went "Well, thats not going to work on TV". This is (to me) a healthy attitude to have when adapting an existing work. Look at it, and take the bits that work and leave out the bits that wont work in a different medium (or in some cases the bits that have dated really badly). Karen Page isnt (I would hope in the year 2016) likely to get hooked on drugs, go into porn, sell out Matts secret ID, get aids and die in the TV show. I doubt many people would argue that the TV show SHOULD go down that route, but on a basic level that is as much if not more a part of the daredevil character than "he fights ninjas lol". On a basic level, I'm not anti-ninja. I, broadly speaking, like the hand and think they SHOULD be part of the TV show in some form or other, but to act like people who thought they were awful just dont "get" daredevil is frankly lovely. And the 2 complete pages of "you are arguing execution, not concept" or whatever is dumb as poo poo; Of course we are arguing execution, everyone is always arguing execution. You could put in any ridiculous poo poo in any show and if the execution is good people will just roll with it. For fucks sake, we just had an ant-man movie. Goddamn ant man. And not even one of the interesting Ant-Mans, but Scott Lang ant-man. Guardians of the Galaxy features a tree who is best bros with a talking racoon. But because these were executed well, it worked. Any concept, literally ANY concept, can work if you nail the execuion. The problem is, when execution fails, it shows up the concept, and if the concept is dumb, people will push back. "Daredevil fights oh so many ninjas" as a concept isnt so strong that when the execution is botched people can just go "good idea, didnt quite come off". As I say, personally I didnt hate the Hand stuff. Didnt love it either, probably the weakest part of S2, but it was okay. I can however see where the people who think it shouldnt have been there are coming from; It may be a big part of a lot of stories in the comics, but this isnt a comic, and if it isnt going to work on TV then cut it and throw it into the same box that the red and yellow tights and DD teaming up wiith spiderman to fight an evil transplant surgeon are kept in.
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May 1, 2016 11:16
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Xealot posted:Ninjas? In my Daredevil? It's more likely than you think. The more it went on the more I started thinking about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and my primary take-away from the ninja stuff this season was "I now see why TMNT was created to parody some of this bullshit, because it's so freaking ridiculous." I never really got it until then.
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May 1, 2016 11:50
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enraged_camel posted:A Daredevil show without ninjas would be like an Ironman movie without high-tech titanium-alloy suits. Ninjas define Daredevil. They're a big part of the character's background. I'm not sure there was a NInja in Brubaker's entire run. If I remember right, they were minimal in Bendis' run too. It was mostly Yakuza, the Owl, Bullseye and Kingpin.
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May 1, 2016 12:52
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Yakuza and ninja are almost interchangeable sometimes though.
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May 1, 2016 13:58
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ImpAtom posted:Claiming something is a 'defining element of the character' when it isn't present in the television show is meaningless because the television show proved that you could tell a Daredevil story with little to none of that so-called defining element. Season 1 involved Matt Murdock being trained by a blind ninja to fight in the ninja wars, something he gets pulled into in later, ending with him going "I don't want no part of your ninja wars man". Like you can like the more understated way it was a part of his character in season 1, but it was a major part of what happened and what defined him. It was never left out, it was never really glossed over. Daredevil is a big ol' Catholic ninja. Is now and ever shall be.
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May 1, 2016 14:08
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The ninjas were bad because they were boring undeveloped characters, not because ninjas are inherently bad. You go from interesting well developed villains like Kingpin and Punisher to cardboard cutouts.
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May 1, 2016 15:45
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Is there like a boss ninja in the hand organization they can use as the villain in the futue?
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May 1, 2016 15:58
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Electra, Wilson Fisk, Matt Murdoc. Who hasn't run the Hand at some point?
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May 1, 2016 16:02
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marktheando posted:The ninjas were bad because they were boring undeveloped characters, not because ninjas are inherently bad. You go from interesting well developed villains like Kingpin and Punisher to cardboard cutouts. Pretty much. The Hand part sucked because Nobu doesn't have the character or charisma to pull it off. Elektra next season should be better.
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May 1, 2016 16:21
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Boogaleeboo posted:Electra, Wilson Fisk, Matt Murdoc. Who hasn't run the Hand at some point? I want to say Foggy, but I've got a bad feeling someone is going to post a panel of ninja commanding Nelson.
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May 1, 2016 16:26
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ImpAtom posted:No, it happened because a disaster occurred. There is no plot point in Daredevil that relies on it being an alien attack. It is intentionally written with as minimal reliance on the MCU as possible. Kingpin isn't trying to find a Chitauri artifact that was left behind, there's no ruined alien battleship sitting in the middle of the city, Daredevil didn't get his powers when Loki teleported back in time to shoot him in the face. The disaster that occurred could have been literally anything and in fact Daredevil downplays any element of it. You can't just blatantly disregard plot points whenever you need to make your narrative work. I'm sorry these movies don't exist in bubbles, but you can't just push them in their own boxes as you see fit. Thor does exist in this universe. The disaster was an alien attack. Proposing hypotheticals doesn't add to anything at all. Yes it could have been something else, but it wasn't and we all know that. So let's not pretend we don't just for the sake of arguing.
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May 1, 2016 16:34
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SiKboy posted:For all the "Ninjas are what daredevil is ABOUT, man" stuff, lets be honest; You could easily fill 10 seasons of a daredevil TV show with stuff lifted directly from daredevil comics without every once featuring a ninja, or at least not a collective noun of them. Daredevil was created in the 60s, in the last 50 years of monthly stories hes done a wide variety of poo poo, a lot of it ninja related, but a lot of it not. This is the best post to come out of this dumb argument. Give it more love and acknowledgement.
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May 1, 2016 18:31
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marktheando posted:The ninjas were bad because they were boring undeveloped characters, not because ninjas are inherently bad. You go from interesting well developed villains like Kingpin and Punisher to cardboard cutouts. Also Jon Bernthal rocked as The Punisher, while the Elektra side plot wasn't as interesting or intense by comparison.
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May 1, 2016 18:38
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SonicRulez posted:You can't just blatantly disregard plot points whenever you need to make your narrative work. I'm sorry these movies don't exist in bubbles, but you can't just push them in their own boxes as you see fit. Thor does exist in this universe. The disaster was an alien attack. Proposing hypotheticals doesn't add to anything at all. Yes it could have been something else, but it wasn't and we all know that. So let's not pretend we don't just for the sake of arguing. Sure I can when the show itself does. The show doesn't actually spend any time on the alien aspect. Matt Murdock doesn't have a crisis of faith upon the realization that humanity isn't alone in the universe and what does that mean for his religion. The shows aren't actually interconnected with the movies except in dumb ways that TV Tropes people focus on. You can scream all you want about it being an alien attack but when you change two lines or dialogue and a newspaper clipping and nothing changes then it isn't actually relevant to the story it is an alien attack. The fact that Thor exists in the universe is utterly meaningless because "cinematic universes' shouldn't be an excuse. Thor existing in a universe doesn't mean a story can't be out of tone or style even if there happens to be a magical guy with a hammer. If Daredevil ended with him finding an infinity stone and defeating Kingpin in a dance off powered by friendship it would still be entirely inappropriate to the story regardless of the fact that Guardian of the Galaxy showed that can happen. You can tell a story using Daredevil and Ninjas but not when you're doing it because "the comics said so" and justifying it with "but Thor!" etalian posted:Also Jon Bernthal rocked as The Punisher, while the Elektra side plot wasn't as interesting or intense by comparison. I thought the Elektra side plot was interesting when it was about her basically being a temptation for Matt and showing that he really actually wants to do these things. It dovetails nicely with the Punisher plot by having Matt realize that he's more interested in the excitement and adventure than in the actual justice of the situation, with him leaving Foggy in the lurch to go off and beat up dudes with the hot lady who tried to make him kill someone. Like a lot of the story she becomes less interesting when it is revealed she was a plant for Stick who was just trying to manipulate Matt the entire time and is actually a magical ninja messiah and her entire personality changes and yada yada yada. She stops being about being a temptation and mirror for Matt and starts being about the ninja plots. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:11 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 19:04
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I think the issue at stake is less that the ninjas are dumb or bad in and of themselves than that the ninjas in season 2 are used and executed poorly.
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May 1, 2016 19:05
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Cythereal posted:I think the issue at stake is less that the ninjas are dumb or bad in and of themselves than that the ninjas in season 2 are used and executed poorly. Yes, that's what Toxx is trying to say but he can't help but turn it into a giant argument regardless. There's one or two guys who are saying that you can't do ninjas well at all, but most are not.
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May 1, 2016 19:14
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ed: not worth it
NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 19:17 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 19:15
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Cythereal posted:I think the issue at stake is less that the ninjas are dumb or bad in and of themselves than that the ninjas in season 2 are used and executed poorly. Mysterious, faceless ninjas are only interesting for so long. Especially in large numbers where they're individually harmless. While The Hand may be an iconic part of Daredevil's lore, the way it was presented here is frustrating because you're expected to spend half a season caring about an enemy that's faceless, swarms in large numbers, and has no real discernible motive to their actions. It worked in season one as a one-off mystery showing there was more to the world than just Hell's Kitchen and that Matt's in over his head. In season 2 they just refuse to explain anything beyond a few nebulous ideas regarding the Black Sky being super-important to them (already known season 1) but expect you to stay engaged.
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May 1, 2016 19:17
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ImpAtom posted:Sure I can when the show itself does. The show doesn't actually spend any time on the alien aspect. Matt Murdock doesn't have a crisis of faith upon the realization that humanity isn't alone in the universe and what does that mean for his religion. The shows aren't actually interconnected with the movies except in dumb ways that TV Tropes people focus on. You can scream all you want about it being an alien attack but when you change two lines or dialogue and a newspaper clipping and nothing changes then it isn't actually relevant to the story it is an alien attack. I don't have a horse in the ninjas debate, but your point of "The show doesn't focus on aliens therefore it didn't happen" is ridiculous. The show is relatively more grounded than Thor, yes. That doesn't mean you have to throw a fit or start completely ignoring things when he moves outside of that box. I don't have to scream about it being an alien attack. It's common knowledge. It's how the story went. Since the show does nothing to outright contradict that, you cannot substitute in your own narrative as you see fit. Daredevil could've ended with an infinity stone and dance off with Kingpin. If it were written as entertaining as I felt S1 was, I wouldn't have blinked twice. It's the Marvel Universe and even if I ignore the comics (which I do since I don't really know a ton about DD) that poo poo is totally plausible. At least as plausible as "Blind ninja can smell guy on the ground floor of a building with like 10 floors". Mysticism is part of the show from the jump. You excused that with "Yeah there was some Gao stuff, but that was short" and that just seems like a cop-out to further your argument without having to acknowledge the other side. Aliens, magic, ninjas. It's all there. How much of it you feel is tolerable is a personal preference thing and that's fine, but to say "Nah, there's no Thor, it doesn't fit" is kinda bratty.
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May 1, 2016 19:32
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Almost every Marvel film and TV show is a self-contained story that has its own themes and ideas. These themes and ideas can include references to the other films but, at least in the ones that don't suck, they are not working against the themes. The fact that Thor exists in the universe isn't a blanket pass for "well, do whatever!!!" and the fact that people use it that was is a reason the MCU idea is flawed in the first place. It leads to people caring more about what something says about the universe than what the thing says about itself. Daredevil, taken on is own, does not rely on the MCU in the way, say, Civil War does despite both being repercussions from the events of Avengers. It is a self-contained story. Any amount of connection to the MCU is an easter egg at best. It contains mysticism but it also is careful how it handles it. Daredevil Season 1 is pretty tight with its themes, concepts and ideas. Almost everything in it is about Matt, the Kingpin, or their respective ideologies and how they interact and clash. Every character feeds back into the central idea and even when Stick shows up he and his story are minimized except for how they feed into Matt's own plot. You can watch Daredevil without any knowledge of the MCU and you wouldn't miss anything because it is an well designed show that doesn't require that. This doesn't mean it can't include fanciful or amazing things but merely including them because the comics had them is lazy. "Ninjas are an iconic part of Daredevil" isn't actually meaningful if they're being included because they're iconic and not because they're a well-thought out part of the story. As I've said repeatedly, you can absolutely do a good story using The Hand, but not when you're more focused on it being universe-building and comic-accurate instead of trying to tie into the themes and ideas of the story. Punisher does a great job of that and that is why the first half of the season is stronger, not just because he's a good actor. Punisher forces Matt to confront a lot of things he doesn't want to and plays into almost every central element of the story. There's absolutely something intentional about the fact The Hand divorce Matt from the rest of the plot, of course, but it doesn't tie back around. The Punisher and The Hand plots barely intersect and a lot of the time it is like watching two different shows entirely, even when Matt crosses over from one to the other. Basically I'd have no problem with The Hand if they felt like something the writers wanted to include and not something they felt obligated to include because the comic has a lot of ninjas in it, but it seems to get defended almost entirely with "the comics."
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May 1, 2016 19:56
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Frankly if your argument for something is "but the comics" then you have no argument. This is a TV series, not a comic book, and on TV hordes of toothless ninjas doesn't work. Despite the highs of the Punisher arc, season two of Daredevil was pretty weak as a whole. Jessica Jones was much better.
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May 1, 2016 20:18
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Wheeee posted:Despite the highs of the Punisher arc, season two of Daredevil was pretty weak as a whole. Jessica Jones was much better. I'm totally with you on the ninja argument, but I'm just starting to watch through Jessica Jones right now and the show is kind of awful. It's tries so hard, so loving hard, to make Jessica Jones edgy and sarcastic but Krysten Ritter just can't sell her lines. Moss, Tennant, and pretty much every other main character out-acts Ritter's cold, emotionless gaze in every scene.
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May 1, 2016 20:30
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I honestly think Jessica Jones is more a show I wanted to like than I show I liked, if that makes sense. I really like (some of) the things it tried to do but I don't think it sold as many of them as it should have.
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May 1, 2016 20:32
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ImpAtom posted:Almost every Marvel film and TV show is a self-contained story that has its own themes and ideas. These themes and ideas can include references to the other films but, at least in the ones that don't suck, they are not working against the themes. The fact that Thor exists in the universe isn't a blanket pass for "well, do whatever!!!" and the fact that people use it that was is a reason the MCU idea is flawed in the first place. It leads to people caring more about what something says about the universe than what the thing says about itself. I thought the ninjas were obtrusive, but overall did not detract from the show in a memorable way. I haven't rewatched the series since it came out, but I don't remember being that upset about it. I liked a foe that Matt couldn't easily trounce, I thought the stuff with Stick and Elektra was complex, and I felt for Matt as he tried to balance an ex-love with his new responsibility. I can see where people didn't like it, but the defense of it is not "comics". That's too much of a taboo around these parts for very many people to really try that. I'm not arguing that comics justify ninjas. I'm just saying the universe had ninjas from the jump, the universe is fantastic enough for the ninjas to be there, and I didn't have a problem with it. Not liking it from a thematic standpoint is justified. Saying that didn't belong at all and shattered the tone of the show is just not true to me. The ninjas were always going to show up, even if your only knowledge going into Daredevil Season 2 was Daredevil Season 1. Again, your argument of "Degrees of Freedom" just isn't working for me. I don't think the fact that there wasn't some arbitrary amount of mysticism or fantasy in S1 means there couldn't be more in S2. If they have it at all, the gate is open.
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May 1, 2016 20:35
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Zzulu posted:Is there like a boss ninja in the hand organization they can use as the villain in the futue? head ninja in charge?
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May 1, 2016 20:46
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Season 1 set the foundation for DD's powers and limitations and stuck to it pretty consistently. Part of why I liked season 1 so much was because Matt was portrayed as pretty much being able to 'see'/hear everything but still had human physical limitations when it came to dealing with situations. When it came time to introduce a new, harder goon for DD to beat up, instead of having them use distractions or loud noises to confuse him (or just be better fighters), they asked for a huge suspension of disbelief that he just magically couldn't sense them. When you consider that DD can sense the smallest bodily processes and literally 'hear' the contents of a safety deposit box that's in the same room as him, it makes absolutely no sense that he can't detect them. These are the same ninjas that Stick shot with a crossbow, over his shoulder, through the window of a moving car.
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May 1, 2016 20:50
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enraged_camel posted:A Daredevil show without ninjas would be like an Ironman movie without high-tech titanium-alloy suits. Ninjas define Daredevil. They're a big part of the character's background.  Zzulu posted:Is there like a boss ninja in the hand organization they can use as the villain in the futue? Since TMNT was inspired from DD, he must be called like, Render or Ripper or something. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 21:00 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 20:57
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LegalPad posted:It's tries so hard, so loving hard, to make Jessica Jones edgy and sarcastic but Krysten Ritter just can't sell her lines. Moss, Tennant, and pretty much every other main character out-acts Ritter's cold, emotionless gaze in every scene. Jessica is a victim of repeated rape who's suffering from extreme PTSD; while her personality has always been sort of "edgy" and sarcastic, as seen in flashbacks, the extent of it in the show's present is largely an affectation she's assumed as a means of protecting herself, and not everyone in the show buys into it. Ritter's greatest failure in the series was her poor running form, girl needs to take some lessons from Tom Cruise. LegalPad posted:When you consider that DD can sense the smallest bodily processes and literally 'hear' the contents of a safety deposit box that's in the same room as him, it makes absolutely no sense that he can't detect them. These are the same ninjas that Stick shot with a crossbow, over his shoulder, through the window of a moving car. This was another tremendous step backwards in season two, the uneven treatment of his special ability. Like everything else involving the ninjas it was just loving stupid and nonsensical even within the established universe of the show.
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May 1, 2016 21:05
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Cythereal posted:I think the issue at stake is less that the ninjas are dumb or bad in and of themselves than that the ninjas in season 2 are used and executed poorly. They were handled like you'd do them in the 80s. Honestly the execution wasn't bad, it was wrong. The same EXACT ninja scenes ported to some on-purpose attempt to make something straight out of '86 would have been rad. Those scenes of like two dozen ninjas all running up the street in unison just needed a John Carpenter soundtrack. The problem is, it clashes with the other tones of the show - well less clash and more "hit them with the pedal down." You can tell there's a different show runner. Also the biggest problem of the season wasn't the Ninjas but the fact they split The Punisher and Elektra into two mini-seasons with nothing to do with each other, so that the Hand's motivations are never clarified and the Punisher's plot still has loose ends (which makes sense going into a series, more than the Elektra stuff). If they had done a WHOLE season with the hand so we knew what the ninjas wanted, what they were planning, and could see the "move, counter-move" dynamic that made season 1 so great.. it might have worked. Problem is we cut all that because they had to double-pack a season. Still, the Punisher parts rocked and I will be shocked if a full series doesn't come of it, so some parts that were merely "not up to standard but still better than most shows like this" could be tolerated. ED: It would be fun to edit down all of the ninja stuff into a 10-15 minute video that makes the whole season look like an awesome cheeseball 80s ninja movie like American Ninja. Would just take a filter and some music. Which is kind of awesome just wrong for this show. - That said, I bet they fix these problems. The show has been willing to listen to feedback and I give them major props for how they handled last season's lovely as hell Daredevil helmet: No retcon but a rapid reason to replace it. So bravo, show runners, that's how you fix goofy poo poo. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 21:23 on May 1, 2016 |
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May 1, 2016 21:17
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Blazing Ownager posted:Still, the Punisher parts rocked and I will be shocked if a full series doesn't come of it Good news! And hey, maybe for season three they'll bring back DeKnight as the showrunner and the action scenes and tone will be consistently good again!
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May 1, 2016 21:23
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Wheeee posted:Jessica is a victim of repeated rape who's suffering from extreme PTSD; while her personality has always been sort of "edgy" and sarcastic, as seen in flashbacks, the extent of it in the show's present is largely an affectation she's assumed as a means of protecting herself, and not everyone in the show buys into it. I'm all for the premise. I get what they are going for with the PTSD and trauma, but how its comes off is like April Ludgate from Parks. I mean the scenes with her and Killgrave in her house was like an angsty teenager giving her stepdad attitude, complete with dinner table commentary and excusing herself from the table to go plop on her bed. The idea of her being held hostage by a guy who has abused her, but also struggling with the decision of if she should try to control him for the greater good is a terrifying and interesting idea. I just don't think they pulled it off.
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May 1, 2016 21:31
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The sad thing is, there is a rad-as-poo poo show about Daredevil vs The Evil Ninja's. Ideally it'd be shot on 16mm film stock that's been sitting in a fridge since 1983, broadcast with that weird yellowish NTSC tint, and Matt Murdoch is played by William Shatner. Going from an in-depth exploration of the arguments for and against vigilantism versus pacifism to 'Oh poo poo, Ninja's!' in like 3 scenes was jarring as gently caress.
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May 1, 2016 21:38
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The trick the ninjas use to hide from Daredevil was introduced in season 1. Nobu did it. It's stupid that he has to be told to listen for their weapons though, because how the hell else are we to believe he was fighting? A heartbeat doesn't tell you the direction a punch is coming from.
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May 1, 2016 21:38
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When the Boss Ninja showed up and Matt recognized him it took me a minute to remember he'd even been in season one. That's how forgettable that poo poo was.
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May 1, 2016 21:57
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No, I think not being able to remember the guy he set on fire and murdered is on you.
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May 1, 2016 21:58
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Aphrodite posted:The trick the ninjas use to hide from Daredevil was introduced in season 1. Nobu did it. Nobu was perfectly still, basically meditating to slow his heart rate and breathing to hide his presence and ambush DD. He was also on the other side of a wall. I can buy that based off what has been established. The ninjas were running and jumping around, somersaulting off of crates and poo poo. Haha, it was just bad writing.
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May 1, 2016 21:59
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Blazing Ownager posted:the Punisher's plot still has loose ends such as?
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May 1, 2016 22:22
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:such as? They introduced that subplot where something happened back in wherever (forget the exotic location name), and there may be some kind of government/military conspiracy thingy going on that involves Punisher. Personally, I hope they don't focus much on that, I'd rather see what they do with the character going forward.
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May 1, 2016 22:26
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