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Ramadu posted:Black Panther did suck though. He really didn't do anything but run and have an accent. He just felt shoehorned in as an origin story better left to his own movie or something. The movie doesn't really change if you remove his character too be honest This is wrong. The whole point of Black Panther was, he was a guy who also was personally affected by the Winter Soldier, but reacted "mercifully", unlike Iron Man. Also he was a major driving force in the second act; T'challa says to freakin Captain America "how long do you think you can keep your friend safe from me?" Honestly if it was just the UN/Accord, Cap and Bucky's team would have had a lot more breathing room.
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May 13, 2016 03:32
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MacheteZombie posted:It wasn't just good timing. Zemo was hanging out in that secured room waiting for them. yeah basically they all arrived to the lab together (with cap and bucky having a head start of at least hours) just as zemo was about to leave (unless we're assuming he was sitting there waiting for them) contrived scenario to say the least
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May 13, 2016 04:11
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TFRazorsaw posted:The Winter Soldier's Russian-ness is, in the context of the film, little more than window dressing. A smokescreen. A mask, preying upon anti-communist fears and tendencies to create a boogeyman for the real threat, Hydra, to hide behind. You're ignoring the very essential point that he is effectively walking branding designed to obfuscate a more sinister enemy that had infiltrated not just SHIELD but the USSR. What's far more important is his name, a reference to The Winter Soldier Investigation, which investigated the morality of war and ties into TWS's themes of corruption managing to infect a national institution. Stark is Hydra.
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May 13, 2016 06:43
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Gyges posted:
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May 13, 2016 06:58
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Terrible Horse posted:This is wrong. The whole point of Black Panther was, he was a guy who also was personally affected by the Winter Soldier, but reacted "mercifully", unlike Iron Man. Also he was a major driving force in the second act; T'challa says to freakin Captain America "how long do you think you can keep your friend safe from me?" Honestly if it was just the UN/Accord, Cap and Bucky's team would have had a lot more breathing room. What? No. He would have had the exact same breathing room. The germans just woulda machine gunned a bunch more cars instead of having a black guy run real fast. He didn't do anything at all integral to the plot. You could replace the wakandan king with Merkel and have the same chase scenes and in fact have it mean more since he killed their head of state as far as they knew. One throwaway line doesn't matter here. He's completely invisible for most of the movie and the only thing remotely interesting he does is save baron zemo from killing himself. This movie might even have been stronger without him because that would have been a situation where they could have used their powers or something and were hamstrung by the accords and let to more of the interesting non punch mans stuff before caps completely childish position emerged. Same thing with ant man. Why would ant man join cap and whoops now hes at the bottom of the ocean. Just useless to the story in a story that already has a bloated cast. It handled the cast better than age of ultron, but then again pretty much any movie handled multiple characters better than that pile of trash. BP shoulda gotten his own movie for his origin and had him fighting like the white gorilla dude in that valley of the dead black panthers or whatever over vibranium. He was just totally extraneous to everything here other than having a convenient connection to royalty that needed to die.
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May 13, 2016 07:03
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While I don't think Black Panther is the best part or anything crazy like that you are pretty alone with your "he sucks" opinion. Sure, he's mainly there to be introduced and be cool so people can get hype about his own movie, but if that bothers you why are you even watching MCU movies?
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May 13, 2016 07:18
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I don't know why I even bothered.
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May 13, 2016 07:19
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When Ant-Man went big I said "Holy poo poo" out loud and then Spiderman also said "Holy poo poo" and it made the audience all laugh and look in my direction so that owned. Good film for good people.
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May 13, 2016 08:09
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Man, superhero movies always have the most contrived dialogue. My eyes almost rolled out of my head when the climax came down to two god like super humans arguing about who was who's best friend. Team America allowing themselves to be captured to allow an escape had all the dramatic weight of a party balloon. Of course they were going to be broken out almost immediately, like what happened literally earlier in the movie. They build up how hardcore the prison was to add tension but then they just did it off screen.  Too many characters, too many plots, zero dramatic tension. Is the next one is going to have 2 superhero teams? Yeeesh. Superheroes should stick to TV. The TV format compliments their serial nature, while movies just highlight their absurdity.
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May 13, 2016 08:11
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Terrible Horse posted:This is wrong. The whole point of Black Panther was, he was a guy who also was personally affected by the Winter Soldier, but reacted "mercifully", unlike Iron Man. Also he was a major driving force in the second act; T'challa says to freakin Captain America "how long do you think you can keep your friend safe from me?" Honestly if it was just the UN/Accord, Cap and Bucky's team would have had a lot more breathing room.
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May 13, 2016 09:25
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Zemo was actually pretty cool, the best character in this movie and the closest thing to a good villain the MCU has had.
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May 13, 2016 10:03
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SlipUp posted:Too many characters, too many plots, zero dramatic tension. Is the next one is going to have 2 superhero teams? Yeeesh. The franchise was starting to write itself into a corner where they had about a dozen active superheroes who were all good buddies and would be more of a match for anything that came along so they had to break up the team. They got around this in the Winter Soldier simply by ignoring the issue and not explaining it (Cap/Widow/Falcon/Fury had to save millions of live on their own, the other Avengers were simply absent) but they can only pull that trick once or twice before it would become totally ridiculous. In any case you wouldn't want all the Avengers to appear in all the films even if there weren't budget and contract issues restricting their appearances.
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May 13, 2016 10:56
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Widow/Falcon Going to jump on this because gently caress it: These characters are among the cast of regulars which drag the MCU films down in terms of being emotionally engaging or worthwhile. First, Black Widow: She is apparently an extremely well-trained (From childhood!) spy and assassin, which can work. But these movies don't showcase her blending into crowds of varying social castes, leveraging her skills as a manipulator, or her ability to affect great change from the shadows, as spies and assassins do. Rather, Black Widow is part of a garishly colourful and public team and her functional (Action) scenes involve her unconvincingly using lame judo moves on bad guys who are polite enough to not make a serious effort to shoot/fight her, opting instead to move into physical contact range and pause for her to initiate action against them. Falcon is much the same except he doesn't even have a convincing or cool backstory, he's just some dumb guy with a jetpack who'd be killed immediately in any fight involving bad guys who don't conveniently wait for him to strike his pose with his dumb wings. poo poo, if they just gave Hawkeye a gun he'd solve every battle they have in seconds. People talk about the shaky cam, the barrage of continuity-breaking closeups, and quips in MCU action scenes, but the greatest sin they commit is a lack of verisimilitude. It all feels fake and stupid because even accepting the physics of the Marvel universe the action scenes make no sense. They really are dumb escapism for manchildren with all the emotional weight of mashing action figures together while making fight noises. For a superhero movie with internal coherency and a sense of verisimilitude look to Man of Steel's Smallville scene with Faora tearing through the US government troops in a manner befitting a humanoid with super strength and speed.
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May 13, 2016 11:12
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Doesn't he admit that he did know, and didn't tell Tony and justified it to himself that it was for Tony's good? Followed by saying that was just easier to think about than owning up to not telling Tony because it was easier that way? After Cap does his little thing about not knowing for sure, Tony calls bullshit and demands that Cap cut the semantics and asks again "Did You Know?" Cap then says "Yes", because he did know that Tony's parents were killed by Hydra, most likely by Bucky. Then he tries to do the not telling him because it was easier thing and Tony is done talking and gets to hyper-mechanized revenge attempting. Bucky is the one issue where Steve and Tony switch sides from their little discussion in the room with the FDR pens.
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May 13, 2016 11:24
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Wheeee posted:Zemo was actually pretty cool, the best character in this movie and the closest thing to a good villain the MCU has had. The Mandarin.
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May 13, 2016 12:25
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Haven't seen the movie yet, but does Cap ever refer to Zemo as Sock-face?
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May 13, 2016 13:17
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He doesn't wear the sock, so no.
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May 13, 2016 13:27
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Wheeee posted:Zemo was actually pretty cool, the best character in this movie and the closest thing to a good villain the MCU has had. Loki was better*. * In Thor.
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May 13, 2016 13:33
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Wheeee posted:
If it makes you feel better, the same goes for the comics. It never made sense for her to be in The Avengers.
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May 13, 2016 15:05
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I thought the movie was plenty entertaining, but there were a slew of things that felt rough: -Captain America's reasons for not signing the accord are ridiculous the entire movie. Simply mentioning that SHIELD was a government agency that 'went bad', or having some part of the accord be meaningfully anti-hero would have made more sense. -Iron Man locks up Wanda without letting her, or any of the other Avengers know, while expecting them to sign-off and just be OK with this until he massages it out later. -Black Panther has more character development and self-realization than anyone else, despite not belonging in the movie. Stark literally lost Potts due to his ego, yet cannot overcome that same ego when he knows for a fact Bucky was mind-controlled when killing his parents. Stark could overlook the murder of hundreds of people by brainwashed-Bucky, but couldn't overlook his elderly parent's murder. He'd break the law to come help Captain once he knew Bucky was being controlled, but as soon as it personally effected him he goes nuts? C'mon. -Ant Man spent his entire movie working towards getting visitation rights to his daughter. Hawkeye finally retired. Why the gently caress would they both join up with Captain to be criminals just because Cap says he's the 'right one'? Why did this movie even need those two additional characters? -"Tony Stark, you have 32 hours to find your friends or we send in the big guns." "Well, we have some of the most powerful beings on the planet, but let me waste some time going to the Bronx to check out this cool Youtube teenager to help us out." Sort of funny that Zemo's entire plan hinged on Cap's unrelenting friendship to someone who barely remembers him. If Cap just didn't get involved, or if the Avengers weren't forced to bring Bucky somewhere Zemo could access, the entire plan falls apart. Also an incredibly minor point, but when Zemo gets to the soviet base the door looks quite large, but when Cap and Bucky walk up the door seems tiny.
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May 13, 2016 15:15
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Atoramos posted:Stark could overlook the murder of hundreds of people by brainwashed-Bucky, but couldn't overlook his elderly parent's murder. He'd break the law to come help Captain once he knew Bucky was being controlled, but as soon as it personally effected him he goes nuts? C'mon. Only thing that felt wonky to me was how brutal the airport fight was. Like, it's framed in 'everyone is fine, mainly' kind of way, but you know, cap dropped a semi trailer on top of a literal child. That's hosed up.
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May 13, 2016 15:32
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He'd already seen how strong and durable Spider-Man was. He just needed to slow him down for a bit, and dropping that walkway on him wouldn't hurt him.
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May 13, 2016 15:37
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Slugworth posted:Only thing that felt wonky to me was how brutal the airport fight was. Like, it's framed in 'everyone is fine, mainly' kind of way, but you know, cap dropped a semi trailer on top of a literal child. That's hosed up. And that's them explicitly pulling their punches - especially noticeable with War Machine, Iron Man, Ant-man, Vision, and Witch, who could be literally tearing everyone apart but are deliberately setting weapons to stun and using non-lethal secondary weapons.
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May 13, 2016 15:38
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Slugworth posted:It's ridiculous that someone would be affected by the murder of their parents. Especially in the realm of superhero comics, where that has literally never been an essential part of any superhero. Yes. It is legitimately ridiculous that Tony just had a trusted ally prove him wrong about Bucky, knows Bucky's being controlled, listened to Zemo explain "my plan was to have the empire destroy itself from within!", and knows he's personally struggling with ego issues (his character arc over the last three Iron Man movies and now lost Potts). He then has less self-realization about parents killed years and years ago or self-control than Black Panther who's father was literally just murdered.
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May 13, 2016 15:39
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Atoramos posted:Yes. It is legitimately ridiculous that Tony just had a trusted ally prove him wrong about Bucky, knows Bucky's being controlled, listened to Zemo explain "my plan was to have the empire destroy itself from within!", and knows he's personally struggling with ego issues (his character arc over the last three Iron Man movies and now lost Potts). He then has less self-realization about parents killed years and years ago or self-control than Black Panther who's father was literally just murdered. Yes, Tony is not a well adjusted person.
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May 13, 2016 15:42
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Phylodox posted:Yes, Tony is not a well adjusted person. It wouldn't have been as ridiculous if Black Panther wasn't there as such a contrast 'obviously this is how a sane person would react'. Also it really felt like the viewer was intended to be able to side with either Tony or Captain, but after him causing Avengers 2, secretly locking up Wanda, and completely losing his poo poo at the end, Stark's a full-on villain. The movie really glosses over this: you don't get a reaction to Tony locking up Wanda from anyone but Vision and Captain. You don't see Tony directly blamed for Ultron, just feeling the guilt the other Avengers are. Captain America 2 was about 'Government gone wrong' and Avengers 2 was about 'Tony Stark learns he's not infallible', but this movie was not about SHIELD being a good reason not to sign the accords and Tony lets the rest of the Avengers accept the blame for Sarkovia.
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May 13, 2016 15:56
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Atoramos posted:It wouldn't have been as ridiculous if Black Panther wasn't there as such a contrast 'obviously this is how a sane person would react'. Also it really felt like the viewer was intended to be able to side with either Tony or Captain, but after him causing Avengers 2, secretly locking up Wanda, and completely losing his poo poo at the end, Stark's a full-on villain. The movie really glosses over this: you don't get a reaction to Tony locking up Wanda from anyone but Vision and Captain. You don't see Tony directly blamed for Ultron, just feeling the guilt the other Avengers are. I disagree, I see Tony as the hero of this movie. A flawed hero as always, but a man seeing the big picture where Cap's thought processes begin and end with BUCKY!
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May 13, 2016 15:58
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They're both wrong.
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May 13, 2016 16:08
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Cap might ultimately be wrong in a lot of ways about the accords but he is right on so much else that it is very easy to side with him over Stark. They both make good points regarding what the accords are trying to do and how effective that will be, but Tony just wants to blindly rush into it with the first incompetent people who suggest it (I mean they get infiltrated on day one). Also while Cap may be somewhat biased by his loyalty to Bucky, what he is basically doing is trying to keep him from getting killed on sight (he flat out says as much when he and Bucky and Sam are arrested and both Rhodes and Natasha are like "wow good job you made things worse!") which I find extremely hard to argue with. If he was all "this guy deserves to be on the Avengers and act with impunity!" I might raise an eyebrow but he doesn't seem to care if he is imprisoned or tried for his crimes, he just wants to stop his death. And not only does it turn out that everything WS has done has been against his will, he also wasn't even the actual perpetrator of the conference bombing!
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May 13, 2016 16:21
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My favorite thing in the movie is when Bucky tells Cap he won't kill the cops in Bucharest then proceeds to give them all horrific internal bleeding injuries
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May 13, 2016 16:29
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Atoramos posted:It wouldn't have been as ridiculous if Black Panther wasn't there as such a contrast 'obviously this is how a sane person would react'. Also it really felt like the viewer was intended to be able to side with either Tony or Captain, but after him causing Avengers 2, secretly locking up Wanda, and completely losing his poo poo at the end, Stark's a full-on villain. The movie really glosses over this: you don't get a reaction to Tony locking up Wanda from anyone but Vision and Captain. You don't see Tony directly blamed for Ultron, just feeling the guilt the other Avengers are. I agree completely that Stark is the clear villain, I just honestly have no issue with him being upset about his parents' murder. I don't even agree that it makes him a damaged person to react how he does. Obviously BP is the ideal reaction, but Stark's is pretty human. Rational thought goes out the window in the face of something like that. Nobody is confused when Mills shoots John Doe at the end of Se7en, even though just a scene before, he was basically content with sarcastically poo poo talking him.
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May 13, 2016 16:34
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Slugworth posted:I agree completely that Stark is the clear villain, I just honestly have no issue with him being upset about his parents' murder. I don't even agree that it makes him a damaged person to react how he does. Obviously BP is the ideal reaction, but Stark's is pretty human. Rational thought goes out the window in the face of something like that. Nobody is confused when Mills shoots John Doe at the end of Se7en, even though just a scene before, he was basically content with sarcastically poo poo talking him. I think what further enrages Stark in that moment is the betrayal from Cap - that Cap has known for two years that Hydra murdered Stark's parents and didn't tell Tony. Telling Tony that after Winter Soldier and explaining how Bucky's been brainwashed, long before Civil War came up, would have gone a long way towards defusing this conflict before it started. Tony's impulsive but he's not an idiot, and betrayal and secrecy coming from the man hyped by even by Tony's own dad as the pinnacle of virtue had to have hurt. Throughout the movie, Cap knows a lot about Bucky and Hydra that he's not telling anyone who's not already on his side. Black Panther only changes sides during the movie when he learns the truth about Bucky, a truth Cap doesn't like to talk about.
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May 13, 2016 16:43
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hiddenriverninja posted:My favorite thing in the movie is when Bucky tells Cap he won't kill the cops in Bucharest then proceeds to give them all horrific internal bleeding injuries *smashes u with a cinder block* you'll be alright kid
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May 13, 2016 16:48
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hiddenriverninja posted:My favorite thing in the movie is when Bucky tells Cap he won't kill the cops in Bucharest then proceeds to give them all horrific internal bleeding injuries Bucky in Winter Soldier riffed pretty hard on Terminator so it makes that in the sequel he'd be all "he'll live".
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May 13, 2016 16:57
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I'm not sure if there has ever been a conflict in a Marvel movie that had even 24 hours of time to have the UN go 'yup, we approve this' when action was needed. In the last Captain America movie most of the UN would have been murdered. In the movie, Tony is willing to have the rest of the team secretly sign Wanda into imprisonment to relieve the Avengers of the liability of Sarkovia (ect.) when the entire conflict was created by Stark in the first place. Apparently in the comic super heroes making a reality show blow up a school, killing a ton of kids which makes more sense as a moral wedge. None of Tony's points work, and the only time in the entire movie Captain does something morally questionable is the very first time he thinks Bucky might not be the real bad guy and stops him from getting shot to death.
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May 13, 2016 17:00
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SlipUp posted:Man, superhero movies always have the most contrived dialogue. It's funny, recently I watched a Woody Allen movie that my parents raved to me about (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/magic_in_the_moonlight/) - and I found the dialog far worse and more contrived and trite then I could have imagined. So I think this is a problem with movies in general.
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May 13, 2016 17:02
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Atoramos posted:I'm not sure if there has ever been a conflict in a Marvel movie that had even 24 hours of time to have the UN go 'yup, we approve this' when action was needed. In the last Captain America movie most of the UN would have been murdered. In the movie, Tony is willing to have the rest of the team secretly sign Wanda into imprisonment to relieve the Avengers of the liability of Sarkovia (ect.) when the entire conflict was created by Stark in the first place. Apparently in the comic super heroes making a reality show blow up a school, killing a ton of kids which makes more sense as a moral wedge. None of Tony's points work, and the only time in the entire movie Captain does something morally questionable is the very first time he thinks Bucky might not be the real bad guy and stops him from getting shot to death. I'm torn on how much of Ultron is too blame on Tony. He's building peacekeeping bots and working on AI prior to Wanda's mind messing, but the image she shows him does send him in a spiral of paranoia that ultimately creates Ultron. He's always been a weapons developer though, even after he's just making weapons for Iron Man, it is pretty much all he does. So he was likely to make a world ending weapon at some point that could be used nefariously if in the wrong hands.
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May 13, 2016 17:06
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MacheteZombie posted:I'm torn on how much of Ultron is too blame on Tony. He's building peacekeeping bots and working on AI prior to Wanda's mind messing, but the image she shows him does send him in a spiral of paranoia that ultimately creates Ultron. Yeah but that's the point, she just shows him something and his reaction is to build a Hitler bot to protect the world through perfect robot fascism. And like you said he would likely have done something like this eventually just based on his personality, and neither of these things make him a good person. Effectively Wanda just told him about death; like "hey you realize no matter what you do, one day you and all of your friends will be dead, right?" and Tony freaked out and almost ended the world about it.
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May 13, 2016 17:14
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I haven't seen Avengers 2 since it was in theaters, but didn't everyone tell Stark to gently caress off with the staff and he dicks with it and accidentally creates Ultron anyways?
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May 13, 2016 17:16
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ashpanash posted:It's funny, recently I watched a Woody Allen movie that my parents raved to me about (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/magic_in_the_moonlight/) - and I found the dialog far worse and more contrived and trite then I could have imagined. So I think this is a problem with movies in general. woody allen, in addition to being a monstrous child molester, is an incredibly overrated filmmaker. there's good writing out there, just not usually in multiplexes or on the netflix front page
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May 13, 2016 17:20
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