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Yeah, one thing to keep in mind is that the timeline makes the most sense if you follow it with Kain/Raziel than without them because they don't care one whit about paradoxes and the game doesn't either (but they still happen.) After all, the green ghost guys attacking now is new.
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May 11, 2016 22:56
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These games' stories are great but there's a lot you have to take on faith, and a lot you have to sweep under a rug because "a paradox did it". They try their best, lord knows the Blood Omen 2 nonsense didn't help keep things organized, but in the end no matter how good of a writer you are, you can't make incomprehensible ideas easy to follow.
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May 12, 2016 00:28
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They did just about as good as could possibly be done with a multitimeline time travel story to make it make sense.
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May 12, 2016 00:30
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theblastizard posted:They did just about as good as could possibly be done with a multitimeline time travel story to make it make sense. The problem is that Crystal Dynamics didn't build the story before starting the games elaboration; no game anticipated the next one, so no one could insert references that would have became clear in the successive game.
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May 12, 2016 19:38
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The plot in these games is much less important than Micheal Bell and Simon Templeman chewing the scenery, which they do gloriously. VVVV I mean, that goes without saying. Crigit fucked around with this message at 23:08 on May 12, 2016 |
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May 12, 2016 19:44
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Add Tony Jay to that list.
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May 12, 2016 20:44
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Guy Fawkes posted:This chapter exposed one of the timeline problems in the saga: Ariel. Remember, this present encounter doesn't exist for the Ariel of SR2 as it takes place in a new timeline. Ariel indentify Raziel with the Unspoken because she is still sane enough to worry about whoever killed her rather than Kain. Thus Raziel's monstrous appearance lead her to think he's a demon. Remember also what Ariel said to Raziel when he meets her for the first time in SR1: Who are you? A servant of Kain come to taunt this lonely specter? Raziel answers Kain is not his master anymore and things go on. SR1 Ariel didn't forget Raziel, she simply thought he was as dillusioned with Kain than her (their metting being after Raziel and Kain fought in the room she's haunting is also a huge point in his favor) Also even if she forgot or changed drastically her opinions SR1 is 2000 years from SR2 Ariel, she has quite the time to become desesperate enough to latch even to a former ennemy.
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May 14, 2016 00:32
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ganonso posted:Remember, this present encounter doesn't exist for the Ariel of SR2 as it takes place in a new timeline. Ariel indentify Raziel with the Unspoken because she is still sane enough to worry about whoever killed her rather than Kain. Thus Raziel's monstrous appearance lead her to think he's a demon. This explanation would support the theory that all the time travels in the saga are not adjusting the same timeline, but creating divergent timelines with very different outcomes: a very disturbing concept, because the potential disasters implicite. So we would end with a universe which is still decaying, one where there are no more vampires, one with the Hylden triumphants....... And in each and every one of these universes, the only consistent events are those of the only game without time travel: BO2 again and again and again........  ganonso posted:Remember also what Ariel said to Raziel when he meets her for the first time in SR1: Who are you? A servant of Kain come to taunt this lonely specter? Raziel answers Kain is not his master anymore and things go on. The problem here is there is no sign of recognization, no recall. It's clear that EVERY time she sees Raziel for the first time.
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May 15, 2016 10:35
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Guy Fawkes posted:The problem here is there is no sign of recognization, no recall. It's clear that EVERY time she sees Raziel for the first time. As for SR1: In that timeline their encounter in SR2 would have happened. But I think that can be handwaved with it having been 2000+ years and Ariel having gone slightly bonkers due to her imprisonment.
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May 15, 2016 11:02
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Raygereio posted:As for SR1: In that timeline their encounter in SR2 would have happened. But I think that can be handwaved with it having been 2000+ years and Ariel having gone slightly bonkers due to her imprisonment. Not necessarily. Before their SR2 encounter Raziel causes his first paradox by sparing Kain, so he can meet Ariel for the first time even if he hadn't in SR1. I'm not sure if that sentence makes sense, I don't think English grammar is well equipped for dealing with time travel.
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May 15, 2016 15:39
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Let's see I can summarize it in a way that some semblance of sense (Edit: Attempt 2): Raziel meets Ariel in SR1 after confronting Kain at the Sanctuary of the Clans. This is their first meeting. None of their next meetings that we'll see in future games exist in the current timeline. Timetravel shenanigans happens in SR2. The "script" called for Raziel to kill Kain in 30 pre-BO1, he refused however and a new timeline is created. Moebius temporarily dumps Raziel into 100 post-BO1. At this point the rewritten "script" still has Raziel going into the Reaver blade some 600 years earlier during the Sarafan era. The conversation Raziel & Ariel have in Defiance during the BO1 era does not exist as that's yet another separate timeline, produced by the paradox at the end of SR2. So here Raziel meets Ariel for the second time from his perspective. But Ariel now meets Raziel again for the first time. Paradox shenanigans happens at the end of SR2. Kain (alive thanks to the outcome of the paradox at the start of the SR2) prevents Raziel from going into the Reaver blade and a new timeline is created. Defiance starts and after escaping from the Elder God Raziel finds himself in the BO1 era. At the pillars Raziel has his third meeting with Ariel. But from Ariel's perspective this is yet again her first meeting with Raziel as the two above happen 100 and 2000+ years in her future. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 21:59 on May 15, 2016 |
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May 15, 2016 16:52
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Raygereio posted:I don't follow. See, the way that I understant it, when Raziel meets Ariel in SR1, it is their first meeting. Their second (from Raziel's perspective) meeting only happens because Raziel spares Kain (which, according to the timeline, he was not supposed to do) and Moebius sends him to the past. Or, in other words, if Raziel killed Kain in SR2, his meeting with Ariel in SR1 would have remained their first.
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May 15, 2016 17:01
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Aumanor posted:See, the way that I understant it, when Raziel meets Ariel in SR1, it is their first meeting. Their second (from Raziel's perspective) meeting only happens because Raziel spares Kain (which, according to the timeline, he was not supposed to do) and Moebius sends him to the past. Or, in other words, if Raziel killed Kain in SR2, his meeting with Ariel in SR1 would have remained their first.
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May 15, 2016 17:46
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Actually Ariel recognizes Raziel in SR1 when she assumes he's Kain"s servant. She recognizes the creature that defended Kain when they first met. She doesn't argue because they have visibly a common ennemy. Also if she is able to peer into the material realm (which she well could be as she appears here in all her manifestations) she could have well pieced the "the First Raziel I met was a time traveller" thing. Alternatively in other timelines where Raziel killed Kain at the tomb of William the Just Moebius didn't send him 100 years in the future but delivered him immediately to the Sarafan times, so no encounter with Ariel. Also BO2 is, as you will see, only existing in the timeline created by SR2. There is no Second Sarafan Order in the timelines where Raziel is consumed by the Reaver.
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May 15, 2016 21:53
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 And I'm the OP. And have been for over a year. That said, I really like the trippy discussion, keep it on! I apologize for the lack of updates, studies and stuff. Well, just studies, actually. The next one should be coming tomorrow.
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May 15, 2016 22:41
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Remember how I used to do lore? Well, I realized that "used to" is actually the operative part now, I completely lost the habit during BO2. So now I do lore again. Also, this is where we meet the second most annoying enemy in the game. 
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May 17, 2016 00:59
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Kain could have said that the statue was "suspiciously inanimate", but he seems compelled to choose a more sarcastic way of directing attention to it. As if to say "Oh look, this statue seems to be frozen, how amazing." Fourth-wall grammar :P
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May 17, 2016 09:02
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Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense until you look at a dictionary, but Kain's use of "singularly" there was correct (which you do point out in an editor's note in the video, admittedly)--by which he means, yes, the statues were conspicuously, suspiciously inanimate. Deliciously overwritten.
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May 17, 2016 14:24
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Yeah, I just thought that it meant "remarkably" and went full sarcastic about it.
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May 17, 2016 15:04
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I rather like the implication that Kain isn't very good at sarcasm.
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May 17, 2016 15:09
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Except he is. Because he was calling attention to the statue in the most sarcastic way possible. He was basically saying 'oh boy I'm going to have to fight these statues later and it is going to be annoying. joy.' Only using him-appropriate dialogue. Deliciously overwritten indeed.
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May 17, 2016 17:24
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You know what they say about jokes you have to explain... I just like the image of Kain practicing his snark for centuries in front of a mirror or minions tasked with mandatory clapping. I mean, yes, it's a good in-character line but the writing in Defiance gets really ornate even for this series.
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May 17, 2016 19:34
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About the tentacles, for what I can remember, they are kin of the Elder God, lesser membrs of his (hers/its?) kind and under their bigger brother's control.
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May 17, 2016 20:03
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And for the golem fights, I am perfectly fine if you snip them out of the final videos--speaking as someone who recently played through all that bullshit himself.
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May 17, 2016 20:10
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Goons like to pretend it's fun to "watch the runner suffer" or whatever, but please either cut out those fights or give us a note to skip them with.
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May 18, 2016 05:56
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To mend my reputation (yeah, right) with the thread, I mentioned an LoK-themed power metal song in the last thread. Well, I found it. It's, uh, enthusiastic. Uploaded it to tindeck because I can't find any mentions of the band still being around.
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May 18, 2016 10:50
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George posted:Goons like to pretend it's fun to "watch the runner suffer" or whatever, but please either cut out those fights or give us a note to skip them with. I would prefer a note to skip them or speeding them up. Grinding off camera and cutting loading screens don't bother me, but cuts in the middle of the action tend to upset me for some reason (yes, I did watch the previous LPs all the way through). ETA: I'm enjoying the commentary (especially lore/speculation commentary), but if Alexey doesn't want to comment those sections, that's perfectly fine with me. bpACH fucked around with this message at 18:17 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 18:14
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Okay then, I'll do what I did in SR1 and add the annotation to skip these irritating parts (note: only when I don't have anything interesting to say, which may or may not happen, as I have no backlog).anilEhilated posted:To mend my reputation (yeah, right) with the thread, I mentioned an LoK-themed power metal song in the last thread. Well, I found it. It's, uh, enthusiastic. Well, that's... a song. nutri_void fucked around with this message at 22:20 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 22:10
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wow I learned something new from watching this LP. I've played through the series at least half a dozen times, and everytime I've gotten to this part in Defiance I've always wondered what the hell a bunch of humans were doing in the vampire citadel yelling "vampire" at you and attacking you. Now I know. Did I just miss where they are referenced all these times? Either way I'm loving watching your playthroughs. I was tempted a few times to pick them back up and play alongside you, but then I'd watch you suffer through the terrible combat and fight the cameras and I realized I was happier just watching you replay. Although Defiance is the one game that I actually play now and then, since it's actually fun to replay.
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May 19, 2016 02:03
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fullTimeLurker posted:wow I learned something new from watching this LP. I've played through the series at least half a dozen times, and everytime I've gotten to this part in Defiance I've always wondered what the hell a bunch of humans were doing in the vampire citadel yelling "vampire" at you and attacking you. Now I know. Did I just miss where they are referenced all these times? Actually, it's never addressed in the games. IIRC, the stuff about the feral humans is from a Prima guide.
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May 21, 2016 22:12
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We'll be here for a while.
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May 21, 2016 22:12
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And now we've officially reached where I dropped this game, twice... Younger me just got through this to a certain point and then ran around confused, fighting the same encounters over and over, until the game was simply put down.
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 22:54 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 22:42
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Interestingly enough, I totally forgot about this area. In much the same way I totally forgot about most of Blood Omen 2. I remember everything which happens before and after Vorador's Mansion but watching Alexey play through this just made me confused.
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May 21, 2016 23:05
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I also don't remember this chapter even though I did play through this game to the end.
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May 22, 2016 00:39
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Holy poo poo, what is it with people forgetting about huge chunks of LoK games  Xoidanor posted:And now we've officially reached where I dropped this game, twice... Younger me just got through this to a certain point and then ran around confused, fighting the same encounters over and over, until the game was simply put down. Yes, you essentially have to run through the same two routes three times each, with an elemental temple shoved between the second and third runs. It's confusing as all hell if you're not being very careful to where and why you're going. Which you aren't during your run of Defiance, because the rest of Defiance is a lot more linear than that.
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May 22, 2016 00:41
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[CONTROLLERS RANT] Okay, so, I now know why the controller is so loving hard to adjust to after 20 years of keyboard and mouse. It's not just the precision and confusing thumbsticks because your brain is used to camera and movement being different hand movements, not just different hands. It's worse than that. Camera control and 90% of actions are done by the same extremity - right thumb. Meaning that you can't press an XYAB button and move the camera/crosshair at the same time. You can with a mouse.
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May 22, 2016 01:16
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Alexeythegreat posted:Holy poo poo, what is it with people forgetting about huge chunks of LoK games And the combat & puzzle sequences required to open that pool-portal is a friggin long one. It also doesn't help that it has you running from from one end of the level to the other and back multiple times. All the runs back and forth through the same hallways just sort of become a blur after a while.
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May 22, 2016 01:40
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Alexeythegreat posted:Holy poo poo, what is it with people forgetting about huge chunks of LoK games For what it's worth, Vorador's Mansion is about the only section of Defiance I don't remember compared to everything but the Eternal Prison of Blood Omen 2, so Defiance must be doing something right. Probably because other locations have memorable dialogue more frequently interspersed throughout the levels.
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May 22, 2016 11:19
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This is the section of the game I mentioned that gets really tedious with its backtracking. I think it's the worst section of the game--by which I mean, of course, if you can get through Vorador's mansion, the rest of the game will be better. I don't know how (if at all) this is related to the lore thing you were referring to, Alexey, but I find the naming scheme of vampire weapons here interesting/amusing, or at least the consistency of it. They all follow the same convention--Heart Seeker, Blood Drinker, Soul Stealer... Blood/Soul Reaver. It's not really anything special in and of itself, but it strikes me as a good world-building detail for some reason.
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May 22, 2016 14:15
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KieranWalker posted:This is the section of the game I mentioned that gets really tedious with its backtracking. I think it's the worst section of the game--by which I mean, of course, if you can get through Vorador's mansion, the rest of the game will be better. Raziel: first Heart Seeker (as Sarafan), then Blood Drinker (as a vampire) and then Soul Stealer (as a wraith and later as the "Soul" in "Soul Reaver")
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May 22, 2016 14:19
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