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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Iron Man is not a man in armor, he is a fictional character. A actor pretends to be Iron Man, and reads dialogue written by writers who imagine how he talks. The movie that Iron Man exists in is created by hundreds of other people, including a director that has a final say over everything else. Na'at posted:
Ironman(the character as portrayed fictionally in this film) is not(being fictionally portrayed as) a drone. He is(being fictionally portrayed as) a man in armor in the middle of(fictional) combat not(being fictionally portrayed as) an operator sitting in a(fictional) control room in Nevada nor is he(being fictionally portrayed as) AI operating autonomously.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:28
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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:95% of society and comic heroes are white. So these movies shouldn't bother with the other 5%? Edit: Na'at, the issue is that you're treating Iron Man like a real person, not a fictional character influenced by a writer's beliefs. Equeen fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jun 8, 2016 |
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Jun 8, 2016 23:35
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Na'at posted:Ironman(the character as portrayed fictionally in this film) is not(being fictionally portrayed as) a drone. He is(being fictionally portrayed as) a man in armor in the middle of(fictional) combat not(being fictionally portrayed as) an operator sitting in a(fictional) control room in Nevada nor is he(being fictionally portrayed as) AI operating autonomously. I don't know why you're on this drone angle. I'm not trying to correct your sentence, I want you to understand that Iron Man's actions are predetermined. i.e. the situation where he finds some muslims being taken hostage is a creation of scriptwriters. In this thread, several posters argue that inventing such scenario and presenting it as a way for Iron Man to demonstrate his heroism is a callous and shallow depiction of terrorism and heroism. You are arguing that Iron Man made the right choice. These are two different arguments, you are wearing blinders.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:37
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Equeen posted:So these movies shouldn't bother with the other 5%? Oddly enough Black Panther is going to be the 18th MCU film and 1/18 is about 5.5%
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Jun 8, 2016 23:40
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Equeen posted:So these movies shouldn't bother with the other 5%? Movies want to make money, not appease an angry screaming child mewling to be loved. Na'at posted:Oddly enough Black Panther is going to be the 18th MCU film and 1/18 is about 5.5% 
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Jun 8, 2016 23:40
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I don't know why you're on this drone angle. I'm not trying to correct your sentence, I want you to understand that Iron Man's actions are predetermined. i.e. the situation where he finds some muslims being taken hostage is a creation of scriptwriters. You seem to think I don't understand what fiction is. And a hero shooting someone holding a hostage has been a Thing in fiction for as long as we've been able to shoot things. The reason why they are Muslim in this fictional film is because at the time this film was written by Americans for a largely American audience the middle east, which happens to be mostly Muslim, was like the conflict hot zone that audiences would recognize. You are placing too much import on their muslimness.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:46
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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:Movies want to make money, not appease an angry screaming child mewling to be loved. lmao you could have just said SJW. Less words to type.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:46
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Also lol at the idea that 95% of 'society' is white in the first place Like, that's not true in America, let alone the other 6.7 billion or so people most of whom get to see white people blow up stereotypes of them for entertainment This is why the theatrical cut of IM3 is the best Iron Man movie
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Jun 8, 2016 23:50
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Why Robocop?ungulateman posted:Also lol at the idea that 95% of 'society' is white in the first place He originally said 95% of Comic Heroes are white, which is probably true idk seems accurate.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:50
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Jun 8, 2016 23:52
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Consider that when Iron Man was created, Tony Stark was intervening in Vietnam in 1963, back when the status quo was buying the anticommunist line enthusiastically promoted by liberal hawk JFK and not the later utter disgust with the war. The other Marvel character that has his origins tied to the Vietnam War is The Punisher.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well let's consider HOW he participates: he uses his super-advanced weaponry to mechanically kill Muslim insurgents. The imagery emphasises how coolly efficient he is: Again, dudes with guns are going to kill innocents and the hero swoops in to kill them. The rest is you being loving loopy man. I could say The Dark Knight is equally a movie about an orphan coming to grips with loss and finding the answer thru oriental mysticism. Except that would be retarded. It's about Bruce Wayne becoming Batman, anything else is your own take.
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Jun 8, 2016 23:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
Pretty sure their movie was inspired by a comic book called Iron Man. It may have featured elements of the war on terror but it was not the inspiration for the film.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:01
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Na'at posted:I could say The Dark Knight is equally a movie about an orphan coming to grips with loss and finding the answer thru oriental mysticism. Except that would be retarded. It's about Bruce Wayne becoming Batman, anything else is your own take. My god you'd be insufferable to watch a movie with.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:02
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K. Waste posted:My god you'd be insufferable to watch a movie with. Be honest here: nobody in Cinema Discusso would be worth tolerating seeing a film with.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:04
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Aug 19, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 00:05
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Neurolimal posted:Be honest here: nobody in Cinema Discusso would be worth tolerating seeing a film with. I'm sure most of us, outside of this forum, are ordinary people who are considerate enough to shut up during a movie and make polite conversation afterwards.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:08
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Neurolimal posted:Be honest here: nobody in Cinema Discusso would be worth tolerating seeing a film with. It's a fair cop. Phylodox posted:I'm sure most of us, outside of this forum, are ordinary people who are considerate enough to shut up during a movie and make polite conversation afterwards. WellyeahImeanofcoursecausewhynotsorta...
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Jun 9, 2016 00:10
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Na'at posted:You seem to think I don't understand what fiction is. And a hero shooting someone holding a hostage has been a Thing in fiction for as long as we've been able to shoot things. The reason why they are Muslim in this fictional film is because at the time this film was written by Americans for a largely American audience the middle east, which happens to be mostly Muslim, was like the conflict hot zone that audiences would recognize. You are placing too much import on their muslimness. I 100% agree with you that the MCU films are written largely to cater to American audiences. You don't really think about it any further though, wouldn't you consider it strange that the Marvel Heroes are written simply to fight what America deems acceptable to fight? Here's the thing, writing something meant for a specific audience to identify with is basically writing something about that audience. There was probably no concept that was more pervasive throughout the last American decade than the War on Terror. The inclusion of the War on Terror isn't just window dressing, window dressing would be to have Iron Man fight the Mafia, or neo-nazis. But America has given up on the War on Terror. Now the film stands opposed to actual events. Not that the writers were trying to predict the future, but in hindsight the fantasy they created was demonstrably false. The film in which the hero helps fight the War on Terror, framed under American expectations of the War on Terror, is undermined by the actual failure of the War on Terror. The Hero's not actually winning. Amazingly, this happens in the comics too, because Iron Man's origin story is framed around Vietnam.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:12
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This scene of an American using super-advanced drone weaponry to kill Muslim terrorists does not symbolize an American using super-advanced drone weaponry to kill Muslim terrorists. You're just bringing that in yourself.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:15
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Neurolimal posted:Be honest here: nobody in Cinema Discusso would be worth tolerating seeing a film with. They would because some of us take all this lightly with a sense of humor. People like Hundu I think would be cool to watch a movie with.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:42
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Water Sheep posted:It's also a trope as old as Die Hard, with Alan Rickman pretending to be fighting for "Asian Dawn". That's a bit of a different case, where McTiernan decided that the 'legitimate' anti-corporate terrorists of the book were too sympathetic. So he made them into simple liars. That's a whole other kettle of fish from saying Al Qaeda never existed. All those Muslims were only actors pretending to be angry and, offscreen, Tony Stark killed them all - ending terrorism forever. Na'at posted:So shooting an armed person who is at that very second holding a gun to a child's head getting ready to kill the child is bad? Does that mean that watching an armed person shoot a child in the head when you are perfectly capable of stopping the situation good? So does that mean that all superheroes who hero are actually not hero but villain? God this movie form is weird. Wait tho is this movie about capitalism or socialism or fascism I can't remember but I do remember that round these parts imagined subtext counts for more than words on the screen so I just wanna make sure I'm viewing this thing Zizeky enough to get a proper read on it. You seem to be having the same difficulty with reading, where you reduce an entire genre (and reality itself) to this fantasy of a child being shot in the face forever. We're talking like 15 films and hours upon hours of content and the only idea you've gleaned from it is that child death is bad. You're trapped in the 'would you rather' logic of Saw, yet surprisingly unaware of the mechanical contrivance guiding your false choice.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:42
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Neurolimal posted:Be honest here: nobody in Cinema Discusso would be worth tolerating seeing a film with. If you hate this subforum so much why do you continue wasting your time staying here?
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Jun 9, 2016 01:14
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Pirate Jet posted:If you hate this subforum so much why do you continue wasting your time staying here? When did I say that I hated this forum? I have plenty of fun talking about movies.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:15
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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:95% of society and comic heroes are white. The US is not Vermont.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:22
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From what I could find, white people make up around 70-75% of the population of the United States.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:27
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Phylodox posted:From what I could find, white people make up around 70-75% of the population of the United States. Non-Hispanic Whites are about 65% of the population.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:37
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Na'at posted:I'll be sure to let soldiers in tanks with target acquisition software know that they are equally as brave as remote operators half a world away since they're also armored and I'll also be sure to mention that because software is assisting them in identifying potential targets that they are not actually making a human decision to take a life but are actually mindless drones. He pulls the trigger... so quickly, he can't personally tell the difference between shooting a hostage and shooting a "bad guy"? I'm pretty sure the tank operators would tell you Iron Man is a movie. Maybe they liked it, maybe not? I could understand either. It's a cathartic fantasy, but also one barely connected to the reality of the war in Afghanistan. e: The realistic version of Iron Man's story, well, that's the Nick Bergdahl decapitation video. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 01:45
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Does anybody know why the Russos direct the Captain America movies? Did their work in You, Me, and Dupree impress somebody?
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Jun 9, 2016 01:50
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The trick is to learn how to recognize problematic elements in media without letting them overwhelm your ability to enjoy said media. Iron Man is a good, fun movie. Enjoying it doesn't make you a bad person.
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Jun 9, 2016 01:56
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Phylodox posted:The trick is to learn how to recognize problematic elements in media without letting them overwhelm your ability to enjoy said media. Iron Man is a good, fun movie. Enjoying it doesn't make you a bad person. I'd say I enjoy movies more for the fact that I don't associate my enjoyment of them with the degree to which I agree with what they were saying. Sometimes it takes me awhile to decide what I think they are saying and whether I agree with it or not. It took me awhile to sort out whether 300 was for or against the War on Terror, for example. At first, I wasn't sure whether Snyder was putting us in the shoes of the insurgents to have it both ways, or to critique our perspective as a cosmopolitan cultural invading with overwhelming military force.
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Jun 9, 2016 02:01
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Phylodox posted:Enjoying it doesn't make you a bad person. That sort of indictment is reserved for snuff films, zoos and the Cars franchise.
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Jun 9, 2016 02:28
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Hodgepodge posted:I'd say I enjoy movies more for the fact that I don't associate my enjoyment of them with the degree to which I agree with what they were saying. The key to Snyder is the same as with Verhofen. He's a vulgar pornographer. It's always funny to see people saying stuff like "so many people miss the point of Starship Troopers" but they themselves miss the point that the exultation of vile, antisocial poo poo is deeply unironic. He's completely aware of the power of this imagery, do you think he calls RoboCop the American Jesus as a joke?
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Jun 9, 2016 02:51
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Does anybody know why the Russos direct the Captain America movies? Did their work in You, Me, and Dupree impress somebody? Somebody really liked the paintball episode in Community.
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Jun 9, 2016 02:55
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Away all Goats posted:Somebody really liked the paintball episode in Community. It's funny because there's two paintball episodes (three, really, since For A Few Paintballs More is a two-parter) but they somehow have been credited with the first one, a Justin Lin joint, rather than the lesser follow-up they did.
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Jun 9, 2016 03:53
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Osama bin Laden was a hologram created to blame false flag attacks on. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Osama bin Laden is an actor working for an American corporation. Thanks! Shanty posted:How on earth can it not? I am horribly surface-level in most of my first viewings of films and I get lost in things like how the various plot points work to communicate the essentials of the story and the structural mechanics of the thing, because that is more or less my job. This is compounded by the fact that I am pretty terrible in general at initializing theory by myself. That said, I really love knowing other people's interpretations and find that evidence-based arguments for critique usually enhance my understanding and enjoyment of films... SuperMechagodzilla posted:In a misguided effort to attack racism, the film promotes the common truther assertion that there's no way a bunch of simple Arab dudes could pull off these complex attacks. ...like this. Neat!
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Jun 9, 2016 04:40
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It's a matter of looking at the form. (Which, we should note, has nothing to do with 'depth'.) For example: go review the scene from Iron Man 1, the one we've been talking about. Stark is watching CNN while crying and then - what is it, a minute later? - he has on his VR helmet, and he's transported inside the footage. POV is important here: before Stark begins crushing necks and blowing up skulls, we get a lengthy montage of raping and pillaging, shot handheld to mimic the CNN. Undifferentiated, faceless masses wail and run around aimlessly. Eventually, the camerawork settles onto a small boy, being separated from his father. We are shown bunch of vaguely-pornographic close-ups of the wailing, frightened children... the gun approaching the father's head... their wide eyes... Everything's building to the money shot, we're going to see the blood, and then Iron Man crashes from the sky. The camerawork turns tripod-steady. The big part to focus on is the sheer instantaneousness of the travel. Stark can teleport to the other side of the planet almost as quickly as that live CNN footage was broadcast into his home. The barrier between Afghanistan and the living room is membrane-thin - but only in one direction. It is practically a fantasy sequence, as if Stark fell asleep while watching CNN and had the most wonderful dream. But it's not a dream. The CG magic drone-suit technology makes dreams into reality. And so, with the speed of thought, he's there - playing real-life videogames. You are seeing Afghanistan as Stark understands it, in all its abstraction. Everything you are seeing is filtered through his fantasy of heroism, before he even arrives. The film presents the Arabs as a mass of helpless suffering because that is how Stark perceives them. The film focuses on the child and the father because Stark has massive daddy issues. And we get a good, clear view of the kid turning way from his beaten father to smile at Iron Man. It is this fantasy of the smiling child that provides Stark's justification. Again, POV is important: Stark does not actually see the smiling child. He just *knows* the child is smiling. Smiling up, at this avatar. This superior father. This golden god. The film also places specific emphasis on the leader of the bad Arabs, who tears apart the nuclear family, specifically sets out to ruin the father, and operates a sat-phone while dragging around huge cases full of Stark Industries tech. Three guess what he represents.* So: Stark imagines the child. He imagines that he is the child. He makes himself into a killing-child. And so he kills, as a child would. *if you guessed 'a dark mirror to Tony Stark', you're conscious.
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Jun 9, 2016 09:23
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Yea but, the really deep question is who would win in a fight, Iron Man or Batman?
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Jun 9, 2016 09:59
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Captain Magic posted:I am horribly surface-level in most of my first viewings of films and I get lost in things like how the various plot points work to communicate the essentials of the story and the structural mechanics of the thing, because that is more or less my job. This is compounded by the fact that I am pretty terrible in general at initializing theory by myself. That said, I really love knowing other people's interpretations and find that evidence-based arguments for critique usually enhance my understanding and enjoyment of films... Haha, fair enough. I guess my understanding of "trutherism" is very surface-level as well, but "Terrorists are secretly being run by western government/organization/illuminati" is pretty much the core tenet, right? Even without getting into a detailed reading, Iron Man 3 seems like a very deliberate play on the concept to me. Like, that's the joke, right?
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Jun 9, 2016 10:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This scene of an American using super-advanced drone weaponry to kill Muslim terrorists does not symbolize an American using super-advanced drone weaponry to kill Muslim terrorists. You're just bringing that in yourself. Tony Stark is so confident in his autonomous military technology, that he comes all the way out to Afghanistan to demonstrate it himself  Better yet, from earlier in the thread: Why didn't he just fake it in California, like the filmmakers had to?
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Jun 9, 2016 10:27
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