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I wanna do a Savage Orcs campaign but have a LL to start with. Is this easily possible?
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Jun 16, 2016 17:16
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Is there a goon recommended guide on how to play the strategy level as Chaos? I adore fighting battles with them but my first try at a campaign found myself wandering through the north with a single stack I could barely maintain and the tribes I awakened being immediately targeted by the Norse.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:17
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terrorist ambulance posted:How are you supposed to get an economy off the ground for vampire counts? No one wants to trade and your economy buildings are poo poo. I'm aware you can stack banshees/ necromancer but that's boring and also takes too long If you're not playing on the harder modes (Which appears to be dumb from what people have said. It just gives the AI cheats and penalizes you with hidden debuffs.) it's actually pretty easy. Both Templehof and Scharwtzwhatever can be your allies and vassals. What you want to do at the start is to defeat the starting army and push them back while getting a non-aggression and trade treaty with Schwartzwhatever. Preferably while making a second army to recruit into. Then while the second army lead by a vampire lord is busy getting built push north and taken the two other eastern sylvania towns. Following that, siege the castle owned by Templehof. Take it, and likely stomp his last active army in the process. Then siege the fort. Simply have a character sit on it until attrition sets in (You can use the other army if it's got a weak garrison.) and you can vassalize them. This is actually an intended game play strategy. You can outright play the game like you're Vlad von Carstein (IE: An actual elector count and the true emperor.) instead of Mannfred von Murderous rear end in a top hat. It's actually arguably a far better method too. Since no empire is built or ruled alone. And you'll find that in the mid to to late game that the challenge is maintaining your empire. Having other counties and nations backing you up on that front is useful. Not only are there unique dialogues for having vampiric/necromancer vassals and allies in the diplomacy screen but there are also events too. You'll occasionally get events and quests that bolster your reputation with your other undead nations. You can also use this as a launchpad to get treaties with other nations. Way back in the thread I mentioned vassalizing Zhufbar by reducing them to their Karak capital city and simply holding a siege. This, combined with warring, killing, and raiding the greenskins and other tribes for 80 turns meant that areas of the empire and dwarven factions loved me. Think the story of how Sigmar won their trust. You can basically replicate the same thing on the map with a bit of luck. The empire also will start out with a number of nations with a trait modifier called "Imperial Distrust". This means they hate the other nations listed in the "Empire Provinces" tab of diplomacy. This also means that they will cheerfully ally with you and become long standing friends so long as you don't stab them in the back. Using this intelligently and playing to their needs and wants you can literally force the Empire into a massive civil war by turn 30 or so. Keep in mind that Schartw-whatever is extremely aggressive and ambitious in most games. They will declare on anything they see as weak. Usually not you. But yeah. They will drag you into wars. Usually this is good since it can be used to bolster relations with other nations. By the mid-late to late game this will probably be bad. You'll want to subjugate them before they do too much damage to your political ambitions. Remember. You're a vampire. And vampires are canonically treacherous motherfuckers. 
Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 17:20
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That Chaos thing makes sense. On my first dwarf campaign, I got super hyped to aid the Empire against what I assumed was an onslaught as I was too busy killing orcs when it first began. First combat is against the Everchosen because he's coming to Barak Var. I'm thinking, oh god, the Empire must be on its last legs and now I'm going to get hammered. Close battle, but when I win it's announced that Chaos was defeated, which was pretty lol. From what I can gather, they tried to beeline to me, got wrecked along the way and with Acheon or whatever being the only army to actually make it South like 30 turns after the invasion started. Both the Empire and VC were in decent shape so I can only guess the AI got a little tunnel vision.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:40
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Pinely posted:From what I can gather, they tried to beeline to me, got wrecked along the way and with Acheon or whatever being the only army to actually make it South like 30 turns after the invasion started. Both the Empire and VC were in decent shape so I can only guess the AI got a little tunnel vision. It seems clear that the AI Chaos invasion just beelines for the player regardless of what faction the player actually is or where they are located. Although whether this is because it has a specific bias against the player or just because the player tends be #1 military strength by that point I can't say.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:42
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Chomp8645 posted:It's a little of both. Death magic is just plain overpowered at the moment and VC have free access to it on heroes that are also strong combatants. Theoretically Chaos could be almost as bad if their units were balanced (they have just as much death access but basically their entire roster is overcosted). Fortunately the autoresolve hates the gently caress out of most of the VC roster, so i wiped the VC off the map in my last game with 3 stacks of swords/spearshields/crossbows and just autoresolving everything. One time there were 10 cards of loving bats in a doomstack and it just melted in front of the most basic empire units in the game on Autoresolve, with basically no return casualties.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:44
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Coolguye posted:Fortunately the autoresolve hates the gently caress out of most of the VC roster, so i wiped the VC off the map in my last game with 3 stacks of swords/spearshields/crossbows and just autoresolving everything. One time there were 10 cards of loving bats in a doomstack and it just melted in front of the most basic empire units in the game on Autoresolve, with basically no return casualties. How is it even remotely possible that you read my post thinking I was talking about the campaign?
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Jun 16, 2016 17:46
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Mazz posted:Are you talking MP or SP because they are very different beasts. I don't care about SP balance because the answer is always spend more. MP. Right now MP is mainly focused around general sniping, infantry and Cav. Monsters are traps because they're easy to kill either with archers or with magic and not that good with their slow killing of units. It really weakens the appeal of the Vampire Counts, the one exception being the genuinely quite good Crypt Horrors who are terrifyingly good against almost everything with Poison, AP and Anti-Large. If you fight Vampire Counts in MP expect a lot of them. Trolls aren't bad either if you can keep them away spears. Orcs and Empire though have far better infantry and cavalry than the Vampire Counts. For Empire they got the near invincible Demigryphs and reasonably cheap and solid infantry, while Orcs have Big Un's and Black Orcs to dominate infantry and cheap cav with Goblins or actually fairly reasonable for the their price Boar riders.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:48
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Chomp8645 posted:How is it even remotely possible that you read my post thinking I was talking about the campaign? Because the conversation thread went back a couple of posts and I don't exactly bother following every line of conversation in every thread ever. Particularly not ones where minor misunderstandings can cause bitchy reactions like this one, so congratulations I'm now no longer following any conversation thread you're in to increase the chances of you acting like a tool again.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:50
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Chomp8645 posted:It's a little of both. Death magic is just plain overpowered at the moment and VC have free access to it on heroes that are also strong combatants. Theoretically Chaos could be almost as bad if their units were balanced (they have just as much death access but basically their entire roster is overcosted). I'd disagree with Franz. If you take a Light Wizard his snipe has a longer range than Spirit Leech and you will generally blow the VC wizards away long before they can go for Franz. Just keep him back until you feel safe to send him in to kill any VC lords who are on low health or if they're all dead, to win the day. Artillery I agree is usually a waste in MP that could have been spent on more infantry or cav.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:53
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Coolguye posted:Because the conversation thread went back a couple of posts and I don't exactly bother following every line of conversation in every thread ever. lol do you always get butt hurt this easy? I can believe I'm reading "I'm now no longer following any conversation thread you're in" as a threat. Like wow. Even if you weren't following the conversation my post itself was self-evident. It talks about the gosh darn opportunity cost in gold for taking different commanders even.
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Jun 16, 2016 17:58
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Fans posted:I'd disagree with Franz. If you take a Light Wizard his snipe has a longer range than Spirit Leech and you will generally blow the VC wizards away long before they can go for Franz. Just keep him back until you feel safe to send him in to kill any VC lords who are on low health or if they're all dead, to win the day. Yeah you can try that strategy. I haven't had much luck with it but it might work. The thing is to do Light Snipe good you gotta put him on a Pegasus and that money adds up quick and it's money you want on monster slaying units. Also a decent VC at that point can also use Gaze of Nagash or whatever which is just "vampiric magic missile" so you still can't out range them or anything, and a flying Light Wizard is a very juicy target for that spell. Honestly having Spirit Leech AND vampire magic missile on every VC wizard is a lotta bullshit. Also I don't think that artillery is a waste in MP, just that it's a waste against VC specifically. I feel like I can use it to good effect against basically any other faction.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:00
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Coolguye posted:Fortunately the autoresolve hates the gently caress out of most of the VC roster, so i wiped the VC off the map in my last game with 3 stacks of swords/spearshields/crossbows and just autoresolving everything. One time there were 10 cards of loving bats in a doomstack and it just melted in front of the most basic empire units in the game on Autoresolve, with basically no return casualties. Bats are kinda terrible though. They're the lightest of light cav, weaker than infantry. They're really only good for messing with siege or dropping on the back of a line, both of which dire wolves are much better at (I loving love dire wolves.)
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Jun 16, 2016 18:01
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So since Radious is apparently terrible can anyone suggest another mod to lengthen battles? As it is by the time I get done issuing all my orders half the enemy seems to ave broken already and I wanna enjoy the view.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:02
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Can someone confirm to me how lords work for garrisons reinforcing armies in the field? Does the lord in the field act as the overall lord? I'm about to fight Kislev with the autoresolve bar all to the left and I am rather worried about this...
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Jun 16, 2016 18:05
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Verranicus posted:So since Radious is apparently terrible can anyone suggest another mod to lengthen battles? As it is by the time I get done issuing all my orders half the enemy seems to ave broken already and I wanna enjoy the view. You are going to have difficulty finding a good one because the speed of battle is baked into the design. The only ways to slow things down are basically "increase leadership all over" or "decrease lethality all over" or both. The problem is that doing either of those things fucks with the unit balance in a million ways. I sympathize with the desire for battles that play out a little more slowly but really the only fixes out there at the moment cause more problems than they solve in my opinion.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:13
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Verranicus posted:So since Radious is apparently terrible can anyone suggest another mod to lengthen battles? As it is by the time I get done issuing all my orders half the enemy seems to ave broken already and I wanna enjoy the view. I was messing around with this at release and really enjoyed it: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=691006940 For the most part it simply makes the battles last longer. He has some changes to stamina and such that I felt were quite reasonable to include in the mod, so that units don't get exhausted firing ranged weapons for instance. quote:You are going to have difficulty finding a good one because the speed of battle is baked into the design
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Jun 16, 2016 18:18
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Chomp8645 posted:Also I don't think that artillery is a waste in MP, just that it's a waste against VC specifically. I feel like I can use it to good effect against basically any other faction. I've seen Luminarks used as decent character snipers and they can keep pace with a rushing army. But yeah other than that and maybe mortars/catapults your artillery gets wasted on VC as soon as they close the gap into melee.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:19
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Pierson posted:Is there a goon recommended guide on how to play the strategy level as Chaos? I adore fighting battles with them but my first try at a campaign found myself wandering through the north with a single stack I could barely maintain and the tribes I awakened being immediately targeted by the Norse. There's a decent, short guide in the OP of this thread if you want to take a look. I haven't really enjoyed Chaos so far, but I can offer a couple pointers. Don't feel like you have to awaken/subjugate everything right away - your first couple awakened tribes will be destroyed by Norse/Kislev/Dwarfs and honestly it's kind of a waste of time to even try. My advice is to head west across Norsca and sack every settlement in your way, razing where you can. Just keep going until you run out of land and then turn around, because if you did this right you should finally have some breathing room to awaken some tribes. Awaken/subjugate a couple of them, and keep heading back east, wiping out every Varg and Skaeling settlement in your way. Your awakened tribes will resettle the ruins, but it takes them a while to get off the ground. Hope your neighbors across the sea don't take notice. Kill the Dwarfs if they're still alive. You should be sacking at every opportunity and focus on growing your horde as early and as often as possible. Get the +growth upgrades on your lord ASAP. Some people recommend starting a second horde on turn 1, but I didn't bother until I was around turn 60 or so. Better players than me could tell you if this is a good idea or not (probably not), but I didn't have much need of one until I started fighting Kislev at around turn 70.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:32
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Triskelli posted:I've seen Luminarks used as decent character snipers and they can keep pace with a rushing army. But yeah other than that and maybe mortars/catapults your artillery gets wasted on VC as soon as they close the gap into melee. I want to use and love Luminarchs against VC in multi but good god that price tag! 20s firing cooldown is no joke either and it's just so easy for them to flub a few shots and have that 2000g go right down the toilet. With a cost reduction I could see them being of good use but who really wants to use a Luminarch when you could have Steam Tank for just 200g more or two mortars/cannons with change left over? It's just too hard to justify that expense in my experience.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:32
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Chomp8645 posted:Yeah you can try that strategy. I haven't had much luck with it but it might work. The thing is to do Light Snipe good you gotta put him on a Pegasus and that money adds up quick and it's money you want on monster slaying units. Also a decent VC at that point can also use Gaze of Nagash or whatever which is just "vampiric magic missile" so you still can't out range them or anything, and a flying Light Wizard is a very juicy target for that spell. Honestly having Spirit Leech AND vampire magic missile on every VC wizard is a lotta bullshit. You probably shouldn't put the light wizard on a pegasus, he just gets rushed by some air unit if you do and zoned out. He can snipe most any vampire general from the ground just fine or if the general is on foot or horse, it's a lot harder for him to safely spirit leech you anyway. If your opponent is using gaze of Nagash instead, just put your general inside a unit of spears or something. The damage gets dispersed a bit if it hits a unit and it seems to mess a bit with the missile's ability to hit a target. By the time he'll have killed your general you should have killed his as well, and his is a much larger investment than yours.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:33
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Yukitsu posted:If your opponent is using gaze of Nagash instead, just put your general inside a unit of spears or something. The damage gets dispersed a bit if it hits a unit and it seems to mess a bit with the missile's ability to hit a target. Oooo I didn't realize/think about this. That could help a lot with their snipe attempts. I can always count on you for analysis Yukitsu! Still it sucks that bringing any flying hero/lord against VC is basically a death sentence for them. I feel that's a problem in a general sense if not a balance one.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:36
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Deified Data posted:There's a decent, short guide in the OP of this thread if you want to take a look. Starting a second horde ASAP is really important if you want to beeline for the cooler units. Each horde has its own growth/surplus so the more hordes you have the more buildings you get and the more units you can recruit. Don't wait. The only downside is upkeep costs. I'm having some success having one horde run around sacking Kislev (right from the start) while the second goes West.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:37
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Chomp8645 posted:Still it sucks that bringing any flying hero/lord against VC is basically a death sentence for them. I feel that's a problem in a general sense if not a balance one. The magic is definitely ruining MP right now. I don't really want to play it until the fix how easy it is to snipe a general with magic because every match more or less comes down to who manages to snipe the opposing generals with magic first.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:39
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Fans posted:The magic is definitely ruining MP right now. I don't really want to play it until the fix how easy it is to snipe a general with magic because every match more or less comes down to who manages to snipe the opposing generals with magic first. Haven't played MP. Is it like SP custom battles where your lord has all the end-game spells? Would forcing players to spend points to access higher-tier abilities (at the cost of additional units and upgrades) alleviate some of the imbalance?
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Jun 16, 2016 18:43
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FutonForensic posted:Haven't played MP. Is it like SP custom battles where your lord has all the end-game spells? Would forcing players to spend points to access higher-tier abilities (at the cost of additional units and upgrades) alleviate some of the imbalance? It's exactly the same as Custom battles. Also no making it cost them wouldn't fix the problem because the price would be worth it. Being able to snipe the enemy Lord is just an incredibly powerful ability to have in Total Warhammer. They just need to redo the magic system because the damage spells veer wildly between "Completely useless piece of poo poo" to "Game breakingly powerful" The problem spells need to be made to cost a lot more magic, or have their damage toned down significantly. I like the buffs and debuffs! But you won't see them be used because everyone just uses Wizards to kill units in safety. Fans fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 18:46
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^ I use a few of the buffs/debuffs. They aren't as popular since they don't seem as immediately visual but things like the cloak of fire and curse of the midnight wind, the latter overchanneled are absolute game changers, arguably more than general sniping if your opponent can protect his lord effectively or keep his general protected.Chomp8645 posted:Oooo I didn't realize/think about this. That could help a lot with their snipe attempts. I can always count on you for analysis Yukitsu! If you want to take a flying lord against vampires, take the Brettonians. Just charge anything in the air with pegasus knights, they'll easily take out any air play the vampires can muster, and Leoncuer is a load stronger than Franz with some damage reduction that works against spells and a bit of health regen making him harder to snipe than a normal general. You can even retreat him over your damsel for 12% more magic res putting him in total about on par with a dwarf and giving him time to regen for when your air battle is done. It's possible to do an air counter play as other factions, but it's risky. You need to essentially do something like take 2-3 air mounted captains and hope your opponent can't kite them all to death properly, I've done that with exalted on manticores being lead by a death wizard as chaos though.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:47
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FutonForensic posted:Haven't played MP. Is it like SP custom battles where your lord has all the end-game spells? Would forcing players to spend points to access higher-tier abilities (at the cost of additional units and upgrades) alleviate some of the imbalance? I want this to happen just so that we can actually do different builds for characters. I want to try out leadership vs combat Franz or Vampire vs Death lore Mannfred or whatever, see which works best, or tweak the build around.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:53
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Kaza42 posted:I want this to happen just so that we can actually do different builds for characters. I want to try out leadership vs combat Franz or Vampire vs Death lore Mannfred or whatever, see which works best, or tweak the build around. Yeah, I agree with this. Putting aside whether or not it's necessary for balance, the diversity of being able build heroes/lords different ways would make things more interesting. I mean it's not like we have the AVATAR SYSTEM or anything so this would be about the only way to get some non-cosmetic army customization.
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Jun 16, 2016 18:57
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Chomp8645 posted:I want to use and love Luminarchs against VC in multi but good god that price tag! 20s firing cooldown is no joke either and it's just so easy for them to flub a few shots and have that 2000g go right down the toilet. Well the Luminark has a ton of advantages too. It's tall enough to get an uninterrupted line of fire, it gives a buff to surrounding infantry, it has the speed to keep pace with the firing line, and it just feels right to take with a Light Wizard to up your ability to snipe and control the battlefield. Overall though the developers are going to have to take another full pass at multiplayer before it becomes genuinely competitive. Everyone talks about army painter but I would love the ability to buy items or ranks on my heroes for gold; both as a nerf against magic casting and a buff to the rest of your army. Just to put some rough numbers to the idea, you could snag Mannfred for a cool 500, but you have to spend 50 gold per skill point to assign to him. So if you want Fate of Bjuna you'd have to spend an extra 300 gold for a footslogging 800 coin caster. Be ready to drop even more if you want him to compete with dedicated combat lords. E: Well poo poo, beaten like five different times. Triskelli fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 19:01
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Speaking of lord customization, I'm surprised there hasn't been a mod to put different weapon models on LLs depending on what they have equipped. Kinda takes the satisfaction away from Franz's Ghal Maraz quest when you already start with a big glowy hammer.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:01
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How do you guys spec out Thorgrim?
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Jun 16, 2016 19:02
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FutonForensic posted:Speaking of lord customization, I'm surprised there hasn't been a mod to put different weapon models on LLs depending on what they have equipped. Kinda takes the satisfaction away from Franz's Ghal Maraz quest when you already start with a big glowy hammer. Speaking of how do get that? My Franz is 26 and I've never had the quest pop but the skill is checked.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:09
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Deified Data posted:How do you guys spec out Thorgrim? I build him as an invulnerable buff tank. Lots of leadership with a side in combat skills focusing on defense.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:11
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Speaking of how do get that? My Franz is 26 and I've never had the quest pop but the skill is checked. I think it's defeating 5 orc armies or garrisons.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:13
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Yukitsu posted:
Err, it may or may not actually be a normal pick in MP(I don't know, I haven't touched that aspect), but Terrorgeists will rip through their points value and more of Pegasus Knights. Given that they have absolutely hideously high damage, armor piercing AND anti-large, along with packing quite a bit of armor and regeneration, Pegasus Knights really cannot handle it. Pegasus Knights may win against other flying stuff the VCs have, but that monster is an extremely hard counter. edit: They cost 2000 as opposed to a Pegasus Knight's 1200, but it is perfectly capable of ripping through 2 squads of them at the same time. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jun 16, 2016 |
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Jun 16, 2016 19:24
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Fans posted:It's exactly the same as Custom battles. In TT your own wizards could counter enemy magic and it was part of the balance to keep magic from being OP for vamps. Maybe some sort of counter-spell mechanic?
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Jun 16, 2016 19:35
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Lord Koth posted:Err, it may or may not actually be a normal pick in MP(I don't know, I haven't touched that aspect), but Terrorgeists will rip through their points value and more of Pegasus Knights. Given that they have absolutely hideously high damage, armor piercing AND anti-large, along with packing quite a bit of armor and regeneration, Pegasus Knights really cannot handle it. Have you tried it out in match made yet? The terrorgheist almost always loses that exchange with one pegasus knight unit at about half health and the other close to full. The charge bonus on pegasus knights is actually very substantial and it allows them to keep an aerial opponent caught in stun animations for a fairly long time. And even then no one takes the terrorgheist in match made since they're simply speaking completely awful for their points value.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:48
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Any single unit monster in MP is a bad idea because it will either get magic'd to death or shot to death with range. They're all rather weak to both right now.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:50
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Grognan posted:In TT your own wizards could counter enemy magic and it was part of the balance to keep magic from being OP for vamps. Maybe some sort of counter-spell mechanic? I reckon it would be pretty unlikely to add in any new mechanics now that its actually released, much more likely that they will just fiddle with the numbers until it's passable/they get bored.
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Jun 16, 2016 19:52
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