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SovietPotatoe posted:I'm a bit confused as to what that whole corruption business was supposed to be about. I mean its obvious with the circle members in BO1 but other than the implication that Kain's ending choice was the result of his corruption it never seemed to have any effect on him, so I wonder what exactly curing him in the ending is supposed to have accomplished? Or was that the reason he couldn't see the squid? And if so, wouldn't the ancient vampires or whoever have seen it too, since they were never corrupted in the first place? nobody could see the squid. The corruption is basically twisting people. Kain wasn't really a good human to begin with, but was supposed to be. All the pillar guardians were supposed to be more or less good people that stood up for what their pillar represented. Positive side I saw this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWM_Vqh8qAg
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Jul 17, 2016 01:06
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Thank you for doing such a great job showcasing all these games. I recall, in the barbaric times before Let's Plays, watching a friend in college play through everything but the Blood Omen games. It was really nice to revisit and see where the games still held up, and to a lesser extent where they did not. I still love the line about Raziel being Kain's Right Hand, and I took that while Raziel becomes the Soul Reaver, he doesn't go insane because it was his choice to do so, whereas the way history had played out before was he was trapped in it against his will, and that's what made the difference. It was not so much defying fate, as discovering the right reason to follow it.
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Jul 17, 2016 01:13
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SovietPotatoe posted:I'm a bit confused as to what that whole corruption business was supposed to be about. I mean its obvious with the circle members in BO1 but other than the implication that Kain's ending choice was the result of his corruption it never seemed to have any effect on him, so I wonder what exactly curing him in the ending is supposed to have accomplished? Or was that the reason he couldn't see the squid? And if so, wouldn't the ancient vampires or whoever have seen it too, since they were never corrupted in the first place? It has less to do with Kain and more to do with the Pillars. Their well-being is the well being of Nosgoth, their corruption is the corruption of Nosgoth. Kain's original Blood Omen choice was rigged: he could either die and doom the Pillars another day (since they required vampires in order to work properly) or survive and doom Nosgoth to ruin. Curing him is a step to solving the basic problem, since if he's not corrupt, neither are the Pillars and thus neither is Nosgoth (the vampire's decay was a result of his corruption too.) As for the Elder God... No one really knew what it was before Raziel came along. It's likely that when they made the Soul Reaver and came up with the whole Spiritual Forge fail-safe they unwittingly were threatening the Elder God not just by making something that could actually hurt it but also allow them to perceive the truth about it. It's uncertain whether the story writers were going insanely abstract with it's Purification Power (since, technically the Elder God has corrupted all of Nosgoth) or if it's something more concrete.
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Jul 17, 2016 01:37
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Did Kain have any idea of what was going to happen when he cast Raziel into the pit in SR1 or was he just trying to get rid of a threat?
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Jul 17, 2016 04:18
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The latter. Once he found Mobius' Time Teevo collection he figured a couple more things out about what he had actually done.
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Jul 17, 2016 05:25
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Interestingly, his face can be interpreted either way. It's not entirely clear when he first found the time streaming stuff, unless I'm mistaken.
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Jul 17, 2016 07:32
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DOOP posted:Did Kain have any idea of what was going to happen when he cast Raziel into the pit in SR1 or was he just trying to get rid of a threat? According to an interview with Hennig pre-SR2, she said that Kain wasn't just being a monster then, he did it for a reason because Raziel's wings were a sign he'd been waiting for. How much he knew then and how much he learned since is anyone's guess.
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Jul 17, 2016 08:46
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Maybe he saw the same murals Raziel did?
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Jul 17, 2016 09:27
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The whole point of 2 was for Raziel to see the murals by kains suggestion. A winged vampire is going to set off some alarm bells for those who know about the ancients. Why throw Raziel into abyss is a mystery though.
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Jul 17, 2016 10:25
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Well, wasn't that what gave him freedom of choice? Everyone else is bound by Fate or whatnot, throwing into the Abyss made Raziel a free agent. Of course, he was immediately snatched by The Elder God who probably saw him as a possible threat and started manipulating him preemptively.
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Jul 17, 2016 10:51
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Iretep posted:The whole point of 2 was for Raziel to see the murals by kains suggestion. A winged vampire is going to set off some alarm bells for those who know about the ancients. Why throw Raziel into abyss is a mystery though. Raziel's return from the abyss was entirely unexpected. I think what Kain was doing by throwing him in the pit was a) making a statement and b) making absolutely certain he was dead. Raziel was the strongest of the Sarafan and in life and the strongest of Kain's lineage after. Given the kind of nonsense we see other vampires living through, the gigantic death vortex probably seemed like the safest bet. In fact I'd be willing to bet that it was simply Kain's favorite place to execute vampires he didn't like, which he probably did a lot of.
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Jul 17, 2016 10:51
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Molly Millions posted:Raziel's return from the abyss was entirely unexpected. I think what Kain was doing by throwing him in the pit was a) making a statement and b) making absolutely certain he was dead. Raziel was the strongest of the Sarafan and in life and the strongest of Kain's lineage after. Given the kind of nonsense we see other vampires living through, the gigantic death vortex probably seemed like the safest bet. In fact I'd be willing to bet that it was simply Kain's favorite place to execute vampires he didn't like, which he probably did a lot of. Except Kain directly contradicts you at the end of the previous update: quote:I would raise the Sarafan priests to be my closest Lieutenants, and would one day cast the strongest of them, my servant Raziel, into the Abyss - dealing one last hand to play against Fate. But in the end, had it made any difference? Had I misread the signs, as Moebius told me? In my arrogance, had I missed my cast at destiny? Also, Raziel makes good on his threat:  Moebius realises that he's been worshipping a giant squid. I'd say that his faith faltered. Aumanor fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 11:11
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Molly Millions posted:In fact I'd be willing to bet that it was simply Kain's favorite place to execute vampires he didn't like, which he probably did a lot of. Jen Fernádez, Richard Lemarchand, and Kyle Mannerberg posted:Why did Kain have Raziel thrown into the Abyss? The devs are pretty clear on the matter. Though personally I prefer the image of Kain executing Raziel out of spite. Only to later realize Raziel's role and that his jealous temper tantrum was planned by Moebius and everyone else who had a go pulling the string. EponymousMrYar posted:As for the Elder God... No one really knew what it was before Raziel came along. It's likely that when they made the Soul Reaver and came up with the whole Spiritual Forge fail-safe they unwittingly were threatening the Elder God not just by making something that could actually hurt it but also allow them to perceive the truth about it. But I always assumed that the last of the Vampires were actively working against the Elder God and the Spirit Forge was made for this purpose. To arm the Scion of Balance against the Elder God. They also had a time pillar guardian after all. And with their oracle/god having become silent they might have wanted to go looking for answers. Edit: Here's a neat detail that I can't believe I never noticed this before: Check out the Scion of Balance's pose in his mural and compare it to Kain's symbol. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 11:41
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So with Kain's corruption cured, would that means new guardians of the pillars could be born? Or are the pillars still corrupt even when the Scion of Balance isn't anymore? I kind of wonder if this was the angle they were going to go for in Legacy of Kain: The Dark Prophecy before it got canned.
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Jul 17, 2016 12:35
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Mr. Fortitude posted:So with Kain's corruption cured, would that means new guardians of the pillars could be born? Or are the pillars still corrupt even when the Scion of Balance isn't anymore? I kind of wonder if this was the angle they were going to go for in Legacy of Kain: The Dark Prophecy before it got canned. New guardians could be born, but right now we'd be back at the problem of them winding up with human guardians instead of vampires... that, and I'm pretty sure the point is moot now. By the time of Soul Reaver, the pillars have been lost for a thousand years already, unless Kain happened to find a convenient piece of ancient vampire scripture detailing how to restore them from nothing. Granted we aren't in the Soul Reaver era anymore, but that still leaves us with no pillars and only one vampire.
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Jul 17, 2016 13:22
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Kain should go into Hylden Hell and kill them all/reach some sort of agreement (moral choice!) and then you don't need the pillars anymore.
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Jul 17, 2016 13:30
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I forget where I first read it but I saw a fan theory that the final battle arena ... is the starter area for Soul Reaver 1. Based on where on the world map the tower/lake can be found and its location vs other landmarks. In other words the earthquake the elder god started in that final battle is the origin of the Abyss.
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Jul 17, 2016 14:15
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double nine posted:I forget where I first read it but I saw a fan theory that the final battle arena ... is the starter area for Soul Reaver 1. Based on where on the world map the tower/lake can be found and its location vs other landmarks. In other words the earthquake the elder god started in that final battle is the origin of the Abyss.  The Vampire Citadel is to the west of the Pillars, in the Lake of Tears. The Lake of the Dead is to the north east of the pillars. Here's a map of SR1.  It doesn't really match up - especially when it comes to distances, but the Lake of the Dead is still to the north east.
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Jul 17, 2016 14:42
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So something I don't think was mentioned, but forgive me if it was and I missed it, is that Raziel's choice actually cuts the Ouroboros of the Soul Reaver. At the end, when he's being drawn into the sword, he places his right hand--the one that held the spectral reaver--against Kain's chest, and the purified spirit blade disperses into Kain, simultaneously curing Kain and ending the Reaver's aeons of mad, cyclical torment.
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Jul 17, 2016 14:58
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Raygereio posted:The devs are pretty clear on the matter. Though personally I prefer the image of Kain executing Raziel out of spite. Only to later realize Raziel's role and that his jealous temper tantrum was planned by Moebius and everyone else who had a go pulling the string. I think that's more likely. I mean, why bother tearing the bones out of a guy's wings if a winged messiah was foretold? He'll kind of need those at some point. But Raziel was thrown into the Abyss and stayed there for 500 years. That's a long time for Kain to find out smatterings of ancient lore and realize what his actions meant. He hadn't realized it yet, but he had just thrown the coin. While it was spinning he had a long time to make his own plans to guide it to its edge. I can only imagine the tantrum that would have followed after THAT revelation  quote:Edit: Oh, that is awesome. I never realized it.
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Jul 17, 2016 18:19
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I haven't realized it either, drat 
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Jul 17, 2016 18:21
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Ironslave posted:So something I don't think was mentioned, but forgive me if it was and I missed it, is that Raziel's choice actually cuts the Ouroboros of the Soul Reaver. This is something that's always baffled me, since there are now THREE reavers. A lot is said about Raziel's eventual fate as the wraith blade, but not of the fate of the wraith blade itself.
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Jul 17, 2016 19:18
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George posted:This is something that's always baffled me, since there are now THREE reavers. Raziel - Reaver of Souls - entered the Blood Reaver, turner the latter into the Soul Reaver. And the Wraith Reaver was dispersed into Kain. Passing on the purity of the previous Balance guardians onto Kain. And perhaps also returning all the pieces of Kain's soul (which he had used to create his lieutenants and which Raziel "collected"). Edit: Technically there are two copies of the physical Soul Reaver right then and there. There's the newly created one Old-Kain is wielding at the end of Defiance. And the one Young-Kain has at the end of BO1. Which chronologically takes place roughly at the same time. To complete the circle, Old-Kain's Soul Reaver will have to somehow fall into the hands of Moebius, who will gift to William the Just 50 years pre-BO1. Edit2: I was looking back at BO1 dialogue and part of Kain's description for the Soul Reaver is "Kindred, this blade and I." That turned out to be more accurate then Silicon Knights probably intended. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 19:52
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Thank you for the LP!
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Jul 17, 2016 20:57
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I'm about a month behind on the videos, but I'll thank you anyway, Alexey! It's been a great ride! 
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Jul 17, 2016 22:32
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Raygereio posted:Unless I'm misunderstanding you, there's just the one left: The physical Soul Reaver. What I mean is Raziel has the wraith blade when he is absorbed into the Reaver. Or does it go into Kain? That actually works, with Raziel replacing Janos as his heart.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:33
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George posted:What I mean is Raziel has the wraith blade when he is absorbed into the Reaver. Or does it go into Kain? That actually works, with Raziel replacing Janos as his heart. The way the (final as of the end of Defiance) timeline works--or is assumed to work--is that Raziel is absorbed into the Reaver, at some point Old Kain has to give it up or lose it so it'll fall into the hands of Young Kain, who will use it until he eventually shatters it against Raziel in the far future. The wraith blade bonds to Raziel, wacky time-travel adventures happen, the wraith blade is purified, and then the purified wraith blade is dispersed into Old Kain at the same time as Raziel is absorbed into the Reaver. There's still a time loop going on, but it's not the perpetual circle it used to be, with Raziel eternally devouring himself into becoming a ravenous, mad entity that has relived the same horrifying cycle potentially infinite times. Ironslave fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 23:46
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Also remember that while the Wraith Blade is a separate addition to him, it's still a form of his soul. So it gets sucked into the Soul Reaver too. Raziel uses it to purify Kain before becoming the spirit of the sword.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:50
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I think, paradoxically, the Wraithblade was always part of the Reaver.
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Jul 17, 2016 23:56
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EponymousMrYar posted:Also remember that while the Wraith Blade is a separate addition to him, it's still a form of his soul. So it gets sucked into the Soul Reaver too. Raziel uses it to purify Kain before becoming the spirit of the sword. Pretty sure that's not what happens. I read a remark either by Hennig or the other designers years ago (but damned if I can find it now) that dispersing into Kain is the end of the wraith blade's journey. Part of this is because it provides an end and relief to an entity that's known nothing but pain and madness for eternity, but also because in the LoK universe time is "immutable" and time-travel is retroactive. When you change history, you didn't change history--it always happened that way, and memory and the timeline reshuffles events around it. If the end of Defiance supercharged and purfied the Soul Reaver itself, there'd be no need to purify it later, see, due to that.
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Jul 18, 2016 00:05
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George posted:What I mean is Raziel has the wraith blade when he is absorbed into the Reaver. Or does it go into Kain? That actually works, with Raziel replacing Janos as his heart. Also Raziel didn't exactly have the Wraith blade. Like in SR2 it detached itself from Raziel and went over to the Blood Reaver to form the proto-Soul Reaver that sucked Raziel in. My theory is that once Raziel was absorbed, the Wraith had nowhere to go and went into Kain (to fill the physical hole left by Janos' heart and the spiritual hole in Kain's soul from when Kain raised his lieutenants), taking the purity of the former Balance guardians with it which cured Kain of the corruption left by Nupraptor's madness.
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Jul 18, 2016 01:35
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Found the Q&A I was vaguely remembering:QA with Kyle Mannerberg and Jennifer Fernandez posted:How can the wraith blade be sucked into the blood Reaver with Raziel's soul, wouldn't that mean that there are two souls in there?
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Jul 18, 2016 12:35
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Raygereio posted:Found the Q&A I was vaguely remembering: Interesting. So Raziel in a sense, merged with Kain?
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Jul 18, 2016 13:03
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Huh, that Q&A actually reminded me of something that makes Kain's not-dying at Raziel's hands make more sense: in SR1, vampires couldn't be killed by beating them to death, and would only stay dead as long as they couldn't come back to life (say via impaling). Of course, that has its own problem in that Raziel would be aware of that, but maybe he'd be willing to assume ripping out a heart and throwing someone into another dimension is enough to finish the job.
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Jul 18, 2016 13:22
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Interesting. So Raziel in a sense, merged with Kain? And the Wraith is now either at peace inside Kain, or after passing through Kain and curing him ceased to exist and finally died. Though the idea of Raziel now being a voice inside Kain's head and endlessly heckling Kain is a highly entertaining one. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 15:18
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Interesting. So Raziel in a sense, merged with Kain? Honestly, that was the first thought I had when that scene happened. Like "part of him" is in the blade and the other part is with Kain. The way Raziel speaks sounds almost like a coming home.
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Jul 18, 2016 15:40
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With the end of the saga, come the final observations. A great work, with a lot of intense and breathtaking moments, and a few lows (I'm not talking about a particular game that all of us really want to forget). The story was epic, the characters memorable and the plot very well thought.; there are, anyway, a few thinghs that bother me. First, the role of the humans in the series is a little disturbing: human characters tend to be villanous, despicable or useless, and mankind in general is useful only as cattle to provide the protagonists with blood/souls, or challenge (and then food). It is as, while witnessing the decay of Nosgoth and the tragedy of the vampires, we shouldn't remember that men, women and children are suffering the same, while being murdered and slaughtered. When Janus talks about Vorador he justifies his disciple's behaviour saying he sufferd because of humans. Well, we don't know anything of those sufferences, but we witness clearly the slaughter he inflicts on his helpless preys, and we hera him calling the vamires "dark gods" gifted with the right and the duty thu cull the human cattle; sorry if I didn't find him very sympathetic (and I wasn't the only one, in the succesive games the character was quite changed in prder to make him less nasty). Another thing I would have preferred to be different was the role of the Elder God: in SR2 he (it?) started to turn from ambigouous helper to enemy; personally i'd have preferred to keep the giant squid in a neutral role, as a being which only care was bringing back the rightful order of thingh in Nosgoth, whatever the cost. In fact there already was an usable "Big Bad", Hash'ak'geek, whose role has never ben really explained: was it a collective mass of hylden souls, the being that possessed Janos or what? By the way, what ras the relation between the demons and the hylden: allies, rivals or what?
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Jul 19, 2016 20:43
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Guy Fawkes posted:Another thing I would have preferred to be different was the role of the Elder God: in SR2 he (it?) started to turn from ambigouous helper to enemy; personally i'd have preferred to keep the giant squid in a neutral role, as a being which only care was bringing back the rightful order of thingh in Nosgoth, whatever the cost. In fact there already was an usable "Big Bad", Hash'ak'geek, whose role has never ben really explained: was it a collective mass of hylden souls, the being that possessed Janos or what? By the way, what ras the relation between the demons and the hylden: allies, rivals or what? Also I disagree on the Elder God's transformation into an antagonist. It's design is that of a cthulu-like entity from the very start which sets the precedence of 'this entity is not to be trusted, also don't try to fathom it you'll probably go mad.' If anything the slow metamorphosis it goes through mirrors/is a result of Raziel's learning and his finding out the truth behind Nosgoth itself. Finally the Elder God's nature is confirmed by Mobius' reaction when he could see it. If Mobius had knew what he had been serving he might not have been serving it in the first place. Hash'ak'geek, the Hylden General (or Hylden) possessing Voranus is only the big bad in that the Hylden are bad and want revenge on Nosgoth. They only reason they want that is because of the Ancient Vampire war, which the Elder God had a hand in. Considering how the Elder God treated it's previous servants when they no longer fit it's purpose (co-opting Mobius, Mortanius and manipulating Raziel to finish them off) it's safe to say that the Elder God is the source of Nosgoth's misfortune as long as it exists. Also the Elder God is an example of the allegory for the nature of blind faith/belief in religion: it's a dangerous type of faith/belief to have because it makes you very manipulable.
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Jul 19, 2016 22:32
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EponymousMrYar posted:Fair-weather opportunists would probably be the closest analogy you could make to the hylden-demon relationship. They used each other for their own ends and could cooperate but with the incredibly obvious 'once we're in Nosgoth all bets are off' implied clause. Had SR1 finished the way it was originally projected, with Raziel destroying the vampires with the sound of the Cathedral, roles would have changed completely.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:21
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Thank you for this, been enjoying following these LPs.
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Jul 21, 2016 07:05
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