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If enemy pods didn't path between you and the objective, they'd end up behind you, which is even worse.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:07
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SweetBro posted:No it's not. If the purpose of it to avoid wasting time hunting the AI down then it should only affect units that have left concealment (which would actually loving make sense). Thats not its only purpose? Timers where added to stop overwatch crawl. Concealment was added to help in bum-rushing objectives without triggering pods on your turn (and ambushes are cool). Pod patrol paths where added so you could have non-static pods that where always 'in the way' so you could ambush them. Not having to hunt down the AI is just icing. We just went over this
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Sep 21, 2016 04:24
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It's gamey no matter which way you slice it, but the pod mechanics have always been gamey. I really dig the idea of activating all pods on the field with constant reinforcement, but that's not the game Firaxis decided to make, and instead they have balanced around pod scale combat, typically 3-6 enemies at a time. It's pretty easy to find the seams in that kind of a design if you try to employ any strategy beyond ambush and then advance. I feel like it's all symptomatic of the idea that Field of View MUST be limited. What if you and the enemy could both see way further than combat range once you broke concealment, then you're not stumbling in the dark and can maybe employ positional tactics over several turns, rather than just grenade+kill/flank+kill.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:30
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Serephina posted:Not having to hunt down the AI is just icing. I miss the one Sectoid that would hide in a trailer indefinitely though.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:37
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NAT-T Ice posted:I miss the one Sectoid that would hide in a trailer indefinitely though. I don't miss having to hunt that one loving Tasoth down who's hiding in a one-tile closet god-knows-where upon this cruise liner. I have NEVER seen the bottom half of cruise liner terror missions for that very reason, I usually just reloaded for a cargo ship.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:39
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The AI doesn't inherently knows where you are, but they tend to camp the objective with multiple pods, since that's their freaking job.
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Sep 21, 2016 08:16
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Doobie Keebler posted:they just saw the Skyranger blast overhead. Except they didn't because then you wouldn't be in stealth and every mission would be no different than ones where you start not in stealth and the guy is like "Hey ADVENT knows we're here".
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Sep 21, 2016 08:59
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Bholder posted:The AI doesn't inherently knows where you are, but they tend to camp the objective with multiple pods, since that's their freaking job. Wrong. I tested this on a non Ironman game with one soldier. No matter where you move him the enemy will always continue to approach him once you get close enough to the objective.
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Sep 21, 2016 09:01
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Bholder posted:The AI doesn't inherently knows where you are, but they tend to camp the objective with multiple pods, since that's their freaking job. Yeah, this is provably wrong based on the code in the game. The Line of Play is a core concept that drives how the pods are positioned on the map. The line of play stretches and squeezes based on the average centre of the squad relative to the objective, and then pods endeavour to maintain their relative position to the line of play. This is why if you have sight on a pod whilst in concealment, and then dash perpendicular to a line towards the objective, it will often seem as if the pod is following you as they try to follow their relative position on the line of play. This is why you can't skip any engagements via stealth, you WILL just get owned as they follow the shrinking line of play.
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Sep 21, 2016 09:52
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Did Beagle get bored? All his recent streams are DnD and Long War.
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Sep 21, 2016 10:56
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concealment is fine. alien rulers and repeaters are not however
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Sep 21, 2016 12:23
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Dongicus posted:concealment is fine. those are HILARIOUS.
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Sep 21, 2016 16:41
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Demiurge4 posted:Did Beagle get bored? All his recent streams are DnD and Long War. He seems to have, yeah. I know he commented recently that he doubted he'd be playing xcom forever. Sad, but certainly can't blame him. I just wish he'd done more with XCOM 2. And yeah, alien rulers and how hard they cheat bothered me so much that I downloaded a mod to give them four actions per turn, but force them to take normal turns. It's still not enough to balance them meaningfully; now they're just big dumb HP sinks. I like the idea of 'Nemesis' type enemies, I really do, but the implementation is just.... ugh.
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Sep 21, 2016 16:47
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Yeah, if they just got 2 actions each turn and a reaction only when you actually damaged them they'd be ok. Reacting on movement is dumb as gently caress though, especially when they show up in certain missions.
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Sep 21, 2016 16:55
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fool_of_sound posted:Yeah, if they just got 2 actions each turn and a reaction only when you actually damaged them they'd be ok. Reacting on movement is dumb as gently caress though, especially when they show up in certain missions. Finally got around to installing the DLC and holy loving poo poo you're right. It's worse that they're given a map evac mechanism and the fact that each reaction procs debuff timers. On the other hand, having a killzone sniper with an extended clip and a plasma rifle almost entirely trivializes encounters against them. Who the gently caress thought this would be a good mechanic? EDIT: Also, lol the ui breaks if you stun a ruler during it's action. SweetBro fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 09:12
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It's not a stealth game. Stop trying to play it like a stealth game.
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Sep 22, 2016 14:32
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I still think the main issue with Rulers for the average player is how soon they appear, not their reaction mechanics in of itself. Like them appearing a few force levels later with this installed does a huge difference in how much doable they can be since you have much better equipment and perks to deal with them (and survive their reaction rounds + the enemy's turn), especially on Legend since 15+ more days can be the difference that has your soldiers having more ranks, having a new tier of weapon/armor, etc.
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Sep 22, 2016 14:39
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A Better Advent adds a sectopod variety that gets a reaction turn when shot at. It's as scary as it sounds.
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Sep 22, 2016 14:51
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You take a shot at the champ, you better not miss. Also I'm getting back into my poo poo after a break, pulled things out of my GW stuff: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=766513507 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=766511505 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=766512413 This stuff should be compatible with mods with enemies with a little configuration.
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Sep 22, 2016 15:01
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Serephina posted:I don't miss having to hunt that one loving Tasoth down who's hiding in a one-tile closet god-knows-where upon this cruise liner. I have NEVER seen the bottom half of cruise liner terror missions for that very reason, I usually just reloaded for a cargo ship.  It was great when seekers spawned in a shed and refused to leave though; it made them completely ineffectual. Re Beagle he said he wanted to wait until there were more substantive/less buggy mods for XCOM 2, which is understandable given that basically all his campaigns ended in horrible crashed and playing WAVECOM for the rest of the night.
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Sep 22, 2016 17:45
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Sep 23, 2016 02:38
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Correct me if I'm wrong but rulers don't actually appear until you do the DLC mission, right? So you can just not do it until you're better equipment. Malachite_Dragon posted:It's not a stealth game. Stop trying to play it like a stealth game. Then don't loving give me stealth mechanics.
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Sep 23, 2016 04:15
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SweetBro posted:Then don't loving give me stealth mechanics. The tutorial tells you exactly how you're supposed to use the stealth mechanics: to get the drop on the first enemies you encounter on your way to the objective.
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Sep 23, 2016 04:18
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fool_of_sound posted:The tutorial tells you exactly how you're supposed to use the stealth mechanics: to get the drop on the first enemies you encounter on your way to the objective. That's like being given a spoon with some ice cream with the instructions of "Only use spoon for first bite, then eat the rest of it with your hands like a loving animal. Why? Because gently caress you." Then the spoon explodes and takes off your hand if you try and use it a second time.
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Sep 23, 2016 04:36
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SweetBro posted:That's like being given a spoon with some ice cream with the instructions of "Only use spoon for first bite, then eat the rest of it with your hands like a loving animal. Why? Because gently caress you." Then the spoon explodes and takes off your hand if you try and use it a second time. It's like being served kebabs as an appetizer, then trying to eat the soup that's being offered for the main course using only the skewers.
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Sep 23, 2016 04:40
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SweetBro posted:Then don't loving give me stealth mechanics. If you want Stealth XCOM go play Invisible Inc. The game is not balanced around stealth beyond giving the player a chance to clear a pod, maybe two off of the board with an initial ambush because you are supposed to be a guerilla resistance ambushing a stronger opponent. It also makes the turn timers not nearly as vicious since the player has until they go hot to make normally risky dash moves across the maps relatively safely.
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Sep 23, 2016 04:41
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SweetBro posted:That's like being given a spoon with some ice cream with the instructions of "Only use spoon for first bite, then eat the rest of it with your hands like a loving animal. Why? Because gently caress you." Then the spoon explodes and takes off your hand if you try and use it a second time. it's exactly like the opposite of this tortured analogy
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Sep 23, 2016 06:15
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No, it is all of you who is wrong.
SweetBro fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 06:18
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Psion posted:it's exactly like the opposite of this tortured analogy It is, however, exactly like being given all the tools for the job but trying to only use the hammer for everything.
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Sep 23, 2016 06:19
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SweetBro posted:That's like being given a spoon with some ice cream with the instructions of "Only use spoon for first bite, then eat the rest of it with your hands like a loving animal. Why? Because gently caress you." Then the spoon explodes and takes off your hand if you try and use it a second time.  and putting your hands in the microwave too because hey in for an explosive penny
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Sep 23, 2016 06:42
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like literally the #1 thing people complained about in EU/EW's combat, aside from bugs, was not being able to set up properly to kick combat off so you'd spend the entire first half of the map never using your gold move because if you were to ever, ever activate a pod on someone's gold move they were probably hosed sideways so they made a fun and cool system to fix that and balanced it in most cases with a timer to poke you along instead of encouraging you to hold your dick in your hands for 15 years waiting for the perfect opportunity and oh wait now i just don't even want to really engage in the tactical combat that this game series has been known for since its inception i make this a double post because i'm not actually saying this to sweetbro, more in general. this has come up a number of times in this thread and i have been a little thrown by the cognitive dissonance every single time Coolguye fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 06:45
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i could get behind more stealth in xcom but the tools and rules in this game are horrible for it and there is nothing in it that encourages any type of stealth run
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Sep 23, 2016 06:46
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Combat in XCOM 2 is amazing when compared to XCOM EW, since I feel like I'm in a better position to just charge around the map blasting fools and destroying cover. Having Battle Scanners not limited to a lovely Sniper perk was also an amazing decision, as well as having a Phantom Scout. Just fantastic fun killing all them ayys and doing it in 6 turns or less.
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Sep 23, 2016 06:59
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embrace the killing, become a monster the aliens would do the same to you
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Sep 23, 2016 07:01
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I did Shen's Last Gift... a little late. Meaning I had pulse/laser shotguns and plasma rifles. One of my soldiers (Wrex) rolled as a Scout from Beagle's Escalation mod - he had Hit and Run by then, which lets the first attack you make against an uncovered/flanked target free. His pulse shotgun also had a Superior Stock. So basically Wrex killed all the robots. I'm not sure whether to bother hitting the Alien Rulers mission - to be honest I haven't played it, just watched it, and it didn't seem like a lot of fun. On the plus side it would be a challenge since everything is getting steamrolled. At least I have a choice between stopping Lids for Everyone and UFO Defense.  VVVV - I just did the Investigate Vial Coordinates mission (after picking up Julian) and somehow avoided activating a pod. I'm not even entirely sure where it was - they may have been on the roof, but probably outside the facility on the opposite side from the evac zone so they were never activated. But yeah, not fighting a pod is extremely rare, sometimes you have to wipe all ayys out to win the mission which really only makes sense with Retaliation missions. monster on a stick fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 07:35
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I think this is a two part problem. The first part of the problem is that it's labeled as stealth, but it's "stealth*". The second part of the problem, is that if it was actual stealth, then the missions would feel a gently caress less monotonous. I don't think I've ever done a mission where I DIDN'T wipe out every single enemy pod, even on Vet which basically makes every single mission the same in terms of playstyle and objective. It also causes a lot of- can I say it? Ludonarrative dissonance. Where you're supposed to be this underground guerrilla resistance, but you've basically got the same tactics as as a ADVENT sanctioned kill-squad and employ gently caress all for guerrilla tactics.
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Sep 23, 2016 07:38
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this reminds me of Dishonored so much right now
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Sep 23, 2016 07:43
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SweetBro posted:I think this is a two part problem. The first part of the problem is that it's labeled as stealth, but it's "stealth*". The second part of the problem, is that if it was actual stealth, then the missions would feel a gently caress less monotonous. I don't think I've ever done a mission where I DIDN'T wipe out every single enemy pod, even on Vet which basically makes every single mission the same in terms of playstyle and objective. It also causes a lot of- can I say it? Ludonarrative dissonance. Where you're supposed to be this underground guerrilla resistance, but you've basically got the same tactics as as a ADVENT sanctioned kill-squad and employ gently caress all for guerrilla tactics. There are a lot of mods that can enhance the stealth part of the game. This user has some stuff that helps: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198016374396/myworkshopfiles/?appid=268500 I also like this one, although it's probably unbalanced http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=641582211 The stealth and the hacking are probably the least fleshed out / worth it parts, so hell yeah mods.
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Sep 23, 2016 07:55
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SweetBro posted:I think this is a two part problem. The first part of the problem is that it's labeled as stealth, but it's "stealth*". The second part of the problem, is that if it was actual stealth, then the missions would feel a gently caress less monotonous. I don't think I've ever done a mission where I DIDN'T wipe out every single enemy pod, even on Vet which basically makes every single mission the same in terms of playstyle and objective. It also causes a lot of- can I say it? Ludonarrative dissonance. Where you're supposed to be this underground guerrilla resistance, but you've basically got the same tactics as as a ADVENT sanctioned kill-squad and employ gently caress all for guerrilla tactics. I agree with this however I disagree with most people's interpretation of it needing to become metal gear style ghosting. I think concealment is still fine the way it is, but the pods should be more proactive and reinforcements stream in as soon as you break it. The absolute most important thing is to decouple pods from the line of play for this to happen, and start bloody communicating. I agree that the play doesn't fit the narrative because you win the field near every time. Which makes no sense really.
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Sep 23, 2016 07:55
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It's fun, stop nerding over it.
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Sep 23, 2016 13:24
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