NZpol: A Dick-Burning Dumpster Fire

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Are you a This poll is closed.
homeowner	39	22.41%
renter	69	39.66%
stupid peace of poo poo	66	37.93%
Total:	174 votes

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The Rabbi T. White: Jul 17, 2008

Vagabundo posted:

The soft-shell crab is pretty good.

Also, Water Drop Cafe in Flat Bush, if you're OK with Taiwanese buddhist vegan food.

Oh. I was meaning that their laksa is the only good one around. I was not ragging on the rest of their menu, which is also great.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 03:20

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# ? May 18, 2024 13:54

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

oohhboy posted:

So Tulips then? The Government isn't going to pop the bubble because it makes the GDP numbers look good. There is also no reason why popping the bubble excludes lowering real demand by changing our immigration policy as popping will still leave people living in garages as outside money will still come in snapping up those now cheaper properties well before they get anywhere near the bottom.

It is all part of the tool box the government is refusing to use like social housing, zoning for high raise apartments, improving real wages, taxation, investment policy and so on. Not talking about immigration in this context because of perceived racism is playing into the current government's narrative of half assing housing reform.

People will still live in garages even with lower real demand because they are living in garages due to high rents which are due to speculators wanting to recoup their mortgages as quickly as possible so they can plow back into more homes with cheap finance that is the cause of high prices which means larger mortgages and larger payments they need to recoup from the people they are renting to.

newtestleper posted:

"Speculative demand" is not some weird beast completely independent from the simple requirement for each person to be housed. Of course the perception of long term supply gaps is baked into prices, but if anything this means that actual changes that change this perception are likely to decrease prices even before they actually have real effects on the lack of housing.

This is true when the speculative demand is of the sort taking place in a futures market where people are effectively betting on how many potatoes will be needed in the future. It's not true when the bet is not on how many potatoes but simply that potatoes will continue to exist and be needed in the future. Flooding the market with potatoes simply does not matter when every potato magnate can simply buy as many as they can, storing them at slightly below cost if not a profit, and will only ever lose money if the entire crop is blighted.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 03:39

The Rabbi T. White: Jul 17, 2008

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/85447300/income-inequality-is-it-getting-worse-or-isnt-it

Right-wing thinktank claim everything fine, rich not getting richer, poor not getting poorer in any meaningful sense...
Unless you actually bother to read what even their slanted findings say.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 04:37

oohhboy: Jun 8, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Are you suggesting there is nothing we can do about the property bubble? You're talking yourself into a self constructed prison. You are walking into the governments narrative of "Not being able to do anything" by not examining the tool box and not using them in combination. The lowest end will need social housing anyway and being the government it can act outside of market forces and do things the market fails to do.

Having reasonable excess supply of a necessity is a good problem to have. Those people holding extra property will eventually have to let those property go as there is no profit in it. The richest will holdout and will require additional tools to push them out but placing disincentive on buying houses as investments is a good thing.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 04:39

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

No, I'm saying the property bubble is a financial bubble for which you need to get the finance tools out of the kit rather than the social tools.

The problem is that we are at a point where it's not possible to have a reasonable excess supply of housing without a massive government investment, while having a government that can't even achieve 1% of its commitment to meet 25% of projected needs. Let alone the necessary affordable housing which is required to actually solve the problem. People holding extra property right now do not have to let property go as there is no profit in it - in fact, the Auckland market has deteriorated to the point where all you need is capital because rents will cover your mortgage repayments. The market doesn't care about providing houses to live in, it cares about providing houses to sell, and it's selling those houses to the people with the capital who are renting those houses at a a small loss or gain, and will on-sell those houses for a significant profit or at a tax write-off loss to other landlords who will do the same. In some cases even bothering to get people to move in costs you money because it makes it harder to sell it at the other end.
People have to live somewhere, and they either have the capital to buy, or they rent. They rent at the landlord's rates or they're homeless. More supply is simply more landlords because they are already the ones with capital to shift around and collateral to leverage for finance. Property will only lose value when people start literally abandoning entire sections of the city due to rents, and that might display itself as temporarily stagnating sale prices, but it won't display itself as dropping prices without the whole house of cards coming down and with a market crash.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 05:14

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

whiter than a Wilco show posted:

I guess I'd just rather be a racist than another bougy "liberal" classist brutally loving the poor while using the correct buzzwords to maintain social standing and whining when Key inevitably gets elected every term for the rest of his unnatural lifespan.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 05:25

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

So, Marx, how much do you think of Lange-style Socialism?

# ? Oct 18, 2016 05:36

oohhboy: Jun 8, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I don't see why we couldn't use both social and financial tools to attack the problem from both ends. On the social end you can provide government housing and place rent controls on the market end. The market has failed and we need some people to lose some of their shirts so other more needy people can have a shirt.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 05:38

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

WarpedNaba posted:

So, Marx, how much do you think of Lange-style Socialism?

Lange's government was boring social democracy then went hard neoliberal, so I'm not sure what you mean

# ? Oct 18, 2016 05:43

Somfin: Oct 25, 2010; In my🦚 experience🛠️ the big things🌑 don't teach you anything🤷‍♀️.; Nap Ghost

oohhboy posted:

I don't see why we couldn't use both social and financial tools to attack the problem from both ends. On the social end you can provide government housing and place rent controls on the market end. The market has failed and we need some people to lose some of their shirts so other more needy people can have a shirt.

And on the social end? Please be specific about why you want a small cut rather than a total halt and removal.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 05:56

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

WE B Boo-ourgeois posted:

Lange's government was boring social democracy then went hard neoliberal, so I'm not sure what you mean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lange_model

I think we might be talking about different Langes.

I always felt that if you had a planned economy for fundamentals (Housing, food, education, so forth) and a regulated capitalist market for luxuries, that was the optimum economic focus for an ideal society. Similar to the Nordic model, I guess.

Then again, I'm one of those guys that believes that it is utterly impossible to implement a classless society.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 06:10

oohhboy: Jun 8, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Somfin posted:

And on the social end? Please be specific about why you want a small cut rather than a total halt and removal.

Are we talking immigration? I don't think anybody here has proposed ending it nor advocated deportation. Reducing immigration is certainly a tool that can be used to help the housing problem both in the physical sense and slowing the inflow of money.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 06:15

Ratios and Tendency: Apr 23, 2010; MURALI

Somfin posted:

And on the social end? Please be specific about why you want a small cut rather than a total halt and removal.

You're the only one bringing up deportation??

# ? Oct 18, 2016 06:23

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

How would a reduction in immigration slow the inflow of money when immigrating isn't a requirement of putting your money in?

# ? Oct 18, 2016 06:31

Moo Cowabunga: Jun 15, 2009; [Office Worker.

Have you dweebs stopped whinging about dem foreigners making your lovely tiny houses too expensive yet or are you now talking about something that really matters?

# ? Oct 18, 2016 06:51

bobbilljim: May 29, 2013; this christmas feels like the very first christmas to me

poo poo plastic bags, next they'll be coming for our sugary drinks!!!!

# ? Oct 18, 2016 06:58

cptn_dr: Sep 7, 2011; Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies

bobbilljim posted:

poo poo plastic bags, next they'll be coming for our sugary drinks!!!!

First they came for the immigrants, but I did not speak out because I was not an immigrant.
Then they came for the plastic bags...

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:02

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

WarpedNaba posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lange_model

I think we might be talking about different Langes.

I always felt that if you had a planned economy for fundamentals (Housing, food, education, so forth) and a regulated capitalist market for luxuries, that was the optimum economic focus for an ideal society. Similar to the Nordic model, I guess.

Then again, I'm one of those guys that believes that it is utterly impossible to implement a classless society.

Seems like a frankenstein model that can't deal with the modern world or the future of work, to me.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:11

voiceless anal fricative: May 6, 2007

Displeased Moo Cow posted:

Have you dweebs stopped whinging about dem foreigners making your lovely tiny houses too expensive yet or are you now talking about something that really matters?

These kinds of tax are v effective at reducing plastic bag use.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:12

Somfin: Oct 25, 2010; In my🦚 experience🛠️ the big things🌑 don't teach you anything🤷‍♀️.; Nap Ghost

Ratios and Tendency posted:

You're the only one bringing up deportation??

If the presence of foreigners is part of the problem, and all y'all fuckers are sayin' it is since you want that number to get larger at a slower rate, then surely you believe their immediate removal will lead to a faster alleviation of the problem than simply reducing the number coming in?

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:16

Ratios and Tendency: Apr 23, 2010; MURALI

Somfin posted:

If the presence of foreigners is part of the problem, and all y'all fuckers are sayin' it is since you want that number to get larger at a slower rate, then surely you believe their immediate removal will lead to a faster alleviation of the problem than simply reducing the number coming in?

Maybe stick to arguing with what people are actually saying rather than whatever retarded poo poo you imagine we think.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:22

Moo Cowabunga: Jun 15, 2009; [Office Worker.

bike tory posted:

These kinds of tax are v effective at reducing plastic bag use.

378 stuff readers felt compelled to post post post on the topic

So it must be bad

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:25

Somfin: Oct 25, 2010; In my🦚 experience🛠️ the big things🌑 don't teach you anything🤷‍♀️.; Nap Ghost

Ratios and Tendency posted:

Maybe stick to arguing with what people are actually saying rather than whatever retarded poo poo you imagine we think.

Yeah, you're just arguing that if we reduce the number of immigrants it'll help things.

I'm just arguing that you should want to reduce the number of immigrants more if you actually believe that it'll help things.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:26

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2016/10/on-need-for-sustainable-immigration.html

quote:

Now I�ll be the first to admit that house prices are an actual problem. If something is not done about them soon, it is quite possible that the bubble will burst and the small country will no longer have an economy with which to support its population, old and new. However, I would argue that one could hardly blame migrants for this fact, and that maybe if the small country�s politicians didn�t divide their time equally between lamenting the problem and reassuring home owners that they will never, ever, ever, ever do anything to reduce the value of their properties, it might be possible to find a solution and still fit quite a few more people in.

In the meantime, however, anti-immigration sentiment on the putative left of the small country is a real thing. So for instance over the weekend the co-leader of the local Green Party went on television to inform the nation that net migration should be capped at 1% of the population every year including returning nationals. He said so in the name of a �sustainable immigration policy�, so that the country has time to build houses and roads and the other things that people need to live. �They are coming over here, and they are taking our infrastructure,� he all but said. And it still might have been a half sensible argument, or at least I might have found it less surreal, were it not for the fact that the world is on fire.

Thousands of migrants die every year trying to cross the small bit of sea that separates Northern Africa from Southern Europe. Many of them would be classed not as refugees but as economic migrants, and of course none would come close to qualifying for the number of points necessary in order to �express interest� in moving to the small country at the bottom of the world. They die because, in the words of Warshan Shire, that sea is safer than their land. Why else would you attempt a crossing that kills so many? And that is saying nothing of the five million people who have had to flee Syria to date, of which the small country is slated this year to take seven hundred and fifty, or the six million Syrians who are �internally displaced�. Or the over 15 million refugees from other countries and regions of the world awaiting resettlement.

The co-leader of the Green Party of Aotearoa thinks net immigration should be capped at 1% because, he says, that is the historical average, or the rate at which people could be peacefully accommodated by the small country. His 1% edict applies to voluntary migrants, but his party�s policy makes the same argument with regard to refugees, insisting that any increases of the paltry quota must be gradual �and the size of [the] total intake keyed to the provision of resources to provide adequate services for them�. We�re no longer talking single digits here, but fractions of a digit. Zero point zero one six per cent: that�s how much 750 people is to four and a half million. A number the Greens are willing to double now, and then subsume to the general principle that immigration policy should be sustainable.

The thing about historical averages is that we need to forget about them. And while we�re at it, gently caress �sustainable�. The world is on fire, and nobody should know this better than the Greens, who are willing to extend the status of refugees to people fleeing the consequences of climate change. We are a developed country blessed by geography and whose political class is aware and accepting of what is about to happen. It is unconscionable that we should be having any conversation other than how best to prepare over the coming years and decades for the arrival of people � so many it scares us, so many we may have to learn all over again how to live in this place.

Ecology is a really worthless ideological base

# ? Oct 18, 2016 07:29

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

bike tory posted:

Speculative demand also affects prices much more so than rents, which are better measure of actual demand. Anyone want to share how much rent theyre paying in Auckland rn?

I pay 230/week for a literal garage with a toilet attached but I have both motorbikes and cats so maybe it's easier for people with children and cars?

# ? Oct 18, 2016 08:08

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

WE B Boo-ourgeois posted:

Seems like a frankenstein model that can't deal with the modern world or the future of work, to me.

But enough about Socialism, what's a more effective way of creating a government type that provides an effective safety net while still allowing for human ambition to be harnessed?

bike tory posted:

Speculative demand also affects prices much more so than rents, which are better measure of actual demand. Anyone want to share how much rent theyre paying in Auckland rn?

$215 a week for a room and all utilities sans food, close enough to catch the train and walk the rest of the way to work so about $30 transport a week.

WarpedNaba fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Oct 18, 2016

# ? Oct 18, 2016 08:56

voiceless anal fricative: May 6, 2007

Somfin posted:

Yeah, you're just arguing that if we reduce the number of immigrants it'll help things.

I'm just arguing that you should want to reduce the number of immigrants more if you actually believe that it'll help things.

You can't see the difference between denying someone's residency application and deporting a NZ resident?

# ? Oct 18, 2016 08:57

voiceless anal fricative: May 6, 2007

WE B Boo-ourgeois posted:

http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2016/10/on-need-for-sustainable-immigration.html

Ecology is a really worthless ideological base

Thats dumb as poo poo^

(The greens suggesting we lump refugee intake in with general immigration)

# ? Oct 18, 2016 09:02

Xik: Mar 10, 2011; Dinosaur Gum

bike tory posted:

Speculative demand also affects prices much more so than rents, which are better measure of actual demand. Anyone want to share how much rent theyre paying in Auckland rn?

Partner and I pay $420 a week for a two bedroom unit in what is considered "central" (just off Dominion Road). It's a 15 minute bus then a 15 min walk to work. We both pay $3.10 per trip, twice a day to get there and back (~$250 a month without pulling up the budget).

This rent is quite "low" based on our searching for alternatives, the property manager that used to be in charge appeared to be fairly incompetent and kept failing to bump the rent. Since he was replaced it's been increasing at the maximum amount allowed by law.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 09:12

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

Oh hey, my landlord hasn't bumped the rent since I moved in in March.

Might be because there's a paranoid schizophrenic in one of the rooms and his constant screaming at night is making it hard to pull in renters and keep them.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 09:24

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

I was paying $290 for a 22sqm unit in the central city - ~$40 less than my neighbour because I'd been there so long. The apartment I bought has a rental appraisal of 100-150% of my 15 year mortgage payments.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 09:54

Somfin: Oct 25, 2010; In my🦚 experience🛠️ the big things🌑 don't teach you anything🤷‍♀️.; Nap Ghost

bike tory posted:

You can't see the difference between denying someone's residency application and deporting a NZ resident?

Not in terms of reducing stress on New Zealand's infrastructure, which is what y'all keep banging on about.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 10:11

Xik: Mar 10, 2011; Dinosaur Gum

I just came back from Wellington for a few days with a colleague (work related visit). It is honestly disgusting just how indifferent I've become about seeing people sleep on the streets.

Our hosts made a comment that the part of the city we were in has a high number of homeless. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I see more by walking 500 meters along Queen Street then I have the entire time I was there.

:smugdog:

Auckland! We do everything better! :smugdog:

# ? Oct 18, 2016 10:12

Xik: Mar 10, 2011; Dinosaur Gum

Also Wellington is pretty and I want to move there.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 10:16

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Xik posted:

I just came back from Wellington for a few days with a colleague (work related visit). It is honestly disgusting just how indifferent I've become about seeing people sleep on the streets.

Our hosts made a comment that the part of the city we were in has a high number of homeless. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I see more by walking 500 meters along Queen Street then I have the entire time I was there.

Auckland! We do everything better!

Yeah I was in Auckland in the weekend, it was bad. They were begging way more proactively than in Wellington too, like you could tell they had 'experience'

It's got way worse in Wellington over the past couple of years. I really hope Lester's wet house A. actually happens and B. works

# ? Oct 18, 2016 10:23

The Rabbi T. White: Jul 17, 2008

Auckland rent check in: $550 for a 3.5 bedroom house in Hillcrest - but that is rented off the inlaws, so it is in the cheap. Market rate would put it at about $800.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 10:24

Spiteski: Aug 27, 2013

Last year we were in a pukekohe 3 bedroom that the owner had sub divided into a single unit house from the garage and the main house we were in. We paid 430 per week for the house and garden and two car spots. Other guy paid 320 per week for a one bedroom unit with the space in front of the garage.

Before moving to where we are now we were waiuku for 380 a week for a 3 bedroom with a small lawn area.

Not really auckland city but we're part of the Supercity so checking in regardless.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 11:08

klen dool: May 7, 2007; Okay well me being wrong in some limited situations doesn't change my overall point.

WE B Boo-ourgeois posted:

Yeah I was in Auckland in the weekend, it was bad. They were begging way more proactively than in Wellington too, like you could tell they had 'experience'

It's got way worse in Wellington over the past couple of years. I really hope Lester's wet house A. actually happens and B. works

People aren't homeless because they are alcoholics, but I agree with the sentiment - it'll help those that are.

I've definitely been seeing a lot more vulnerable homeless over the last couple of years, they seem to be getting younger, and more females as well - like I've seen girls who can't be more than 20 sleeping on Courtney place. It's used to be late 20's to middle aged men, beards, and booze. But now it's younger people, claiming mental illness issues (I believe their signs btw) or just a straight up lack of jobs.

It's hosed up, and the WCCs solution was to tell people to not give the the homeless money when they ask for it and instead give it to some religious charity's who will decide who gets the money. I refuse to call it begging, as begging implies they are inappropriately asking.

# ? Oct 18, 2016 11:13

voiceless anal fricative: May 6, 2007

Hekia Parata isn't standing in next year's election. That's probably a good thing for the unions tbh, hopefully it means she won't fight as hard against their upcoming industrial action

# ? Oct 19, 2016 03:57

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# ? May 18, 2024 13:54

edogawa rando: Mar 20, 2007

I guess it also explains why she's trying to push through so much poo poo driven by ideology rather than any actual evidence, like bulk funding.

# ? Oct 19, 2016 04:55

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