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There's another thing that seems to affect men more than women and that's homelessness, i'm not entirely sure as to why if men on average earn more and hold higher paying jobs? As I understand it one small thread to the tapestry involves mental illness and substance abuse and the way men and the patriarchy deal with it. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4125.0main+features1310Jan%202013 http://www.homelessnessaustralia.org.au/index.php/about-homelessness/homeless-statistics
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Dec 29, 2016 03:22
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:So you didn't read the article then You mean the article that was never posted in this thread?
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Dec 29, 2016 03:22
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Jarmak posted:You mean the article that was never posted in this thread? So you didn't read the OP then
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Dec 29, 2016 03:24
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:So you didn't read the article then The Politics of Housework? I read it. I'm not sure how it disproves my answer. If the couple shouldn't work together to decide how to divvy up the housework, that should be left to the man?
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Dec 29, 2016 03:25
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Tarantula posted:There's another thing that seems to affect men more than women and that's homelessness, i'm not entirely sure as to why if men on average earn more and hold higher paying jobs? As I understand it one small thread to the tapestry involves mental illness and substance abuse and the way men and the patriarchy deal with it. I think a disproportionate number of homeless people are war vets in some countries.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:25
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Guy Goodbody posted:The Politics of Housework? I read it. I'm not sure how it disproves my answer. If these are your information processing skills I honestly don't think communication is going to fix anything, since the article you claim to read very clearly states that they did start out with a plan to divvy up the housework, which mysteriously did not solve the problem. I'd quote it for you, but I'm not your wife, so do your own work.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:28
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:So you didn't read the OP then Alright that's on me I read it in the other thread and forgot it was one of your posts that was quoted in the OP. You can still gently caress off for suggesting any man who thinks he does his fair share of housework is extra for sure sexist.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:30
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If these are your information processing skills I honestly don't think communication is going to fix anything, since the article you claim to read very clearly states that they did start out with a plan to divvy up the housework, which mysteriously did not solve the problem. I'd quote it for you, but I'm not your wife, so do your own work. Even though we aren't married, I'm willing to quote stuff for you anyway. It's really no trouble here's what Rudatron said rudatron posted:The solution? Make a system. Record keeping, objective data. That's literally the first step you do. Not the last resort, the first. Don't be stand-off about it, just do it. and here's what the lady from the article said quote:why shouldn't we share the housework? So I suggested it to my mate and he agreed So Pat got a verbal agreement for some unspecified sharing of housework. Rudatron suggests coming up with an objective system where both parties agree to specific things and records are kept. You might not see the distinction there, but it's very important!
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Dec 29, 2016 03:33
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Guy Goodbody posted:Even though we aren't married, I'm willing to quote stuff for you anyway. It's really no trouble I'm gonna fast-forward to the end here since poor helpless babymen need everything spoon-fed to them apparently: If you aren't doing your share of the work, saying "you just need to manage me better" is not a solution. That wouldn't fly at your job so you have no business thinking it would fly at home. You are an adult, you should not need your partner to write you out a chore chart like you're a toddler. The chore chart doesn't make you do your housework, you do. A chore chart doesn't solve the problem of ignoring the work, or of demanding to be "taught how" every time something needs doing, or of whining to your partner that she's just so much better than you are at all those boring unpleasant jobs so why doesn't she do them, or of telling her any jobs you don't want to do really don't need to be done at all and why is she so unreasonable about it. You know, the things the article you're pretending you read was about. Rudatron has a long track record of being a sexist idiot and if you guys are going to buy into the sexist idiots' take on every issue FAU should just close this thread now because it will be an MRA cesspit by the end of the week. Sexism and toxic masculinity are very very deeply ingrained into our society. If you're going to try and solve that, you need to be very suspicious of any solution that sounds comfortable to you, because our society's current comfort zone about gender roles is poison.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:43
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I'm gonna fast-forward to the end here since poor helpless babymen need everything spoon-fed to them apparently: If you aren't doing your share of the work, saying "you just need to manage me better" is not a solution. That wouldn't fly at your job so you have no business thinking it would fly at home. Settle down Beavis (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 29, 2016 03:46
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I'm gonna fast-forward to the end here since poor helpless babymen need everything spoon-fed to them apparently: If you aren't doing your share of the work, saying "you just need to manage me better" is not a solution. That wouldn't fly at your job so you have no business thinking it would fly at home. This is why I suggested that both the man and the woman work together to come up with a division of labor that both can agree with. That's what I said when you asked who would do the labor of divvying up the housework. Because, yeah, you're right, if the woman just assigns the guy a bunch of chores, that's probably not gonna work out great. You're arguing against something I never said
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Dec 29, 2016 03:50
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Guy Goodbody posted:So Pat got a verbal agreement for some unspecified sharing of housework. Rudatron suggests coming up with an objective system where both parties agree to specific things and records are kept. You might not see the distinction there, but it's very important! I pretty much agree (and am also unclear on how an article could disprove your "should" claim). But I took Rudatron's advice to mean that people should go into the "I'm unhappy" conversation with a tally of how much work got done in the last week and who did it. Even if the couple doesn't get to the point of a chore chart, it seems like, "I vacuumed 4 times last week, you did it once" would be a much better starting point than "you should vacuum more". Quantifying stuff seems useful for setting expectations, too. If the cleaner partner asks to have the carpets vacuumed twice a week, then that's a conversation about splitting chores. If they want it vacuumed ten times, then that's probably a conversation about reasonable standards. (Again, I don't think we substantively disagree, but wanted to show how numbers could help, even if people aren't making permanent charts)
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Dec 29, 2016 03:50
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Guy Goodbody posted:This is why I suggested that both the man and the woman work together to come up with a division of labor that both can agree with. That's what I said when you asked who would do the labor of divvying up the housework. Because, yeah, you're right, if the woman just assigns the guy a bunch of chores, that's probably not gonna work out great. You're arguing against something I never said If one partner is having an issue with the other not pulling their weight, then the issue is with the one not doing the work being unwilling to do it, assuming, not unreasonably, that the other has mentioned the issue before this point. Whether you sit down together and write a rota is not really the point, the point is that the one not doing the work is going to have to internalize the need to change, at which point they should be quite willing and able to do their work without getting it signed off and documented. The documentation process is entirely irrelevant to the resolution of the issue.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:53
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The easiest set up is just going to be having a list of chores, which you rotate through who is responsible for what depending on the date. I read 'the politics of housework', it suggests 'timesheets' but only as a kind of last resort. It also presents the problem as entirely stemming from some kind of personal failing of the man, which I don't think is necessarily true, or the best takeaway from the situation. The reason businesses have clear, delineated responsibility is because that leads to less hassle in the long run. Treating a system as something only for 'toddlers' (ie inherently infantilizing) is not constructive, if you're wanting to change people's habits then that's going to take time. What's also not constructive is this assumption you have of my sexism, that's just not true. I take all prejudice seriously, because it leads to a lot of suffering in this world, and i don't like being accused of it out of the blue.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:This is why I suggested that both the man and the woman work together to come up with a division of labor that both can agree with. That's what I said when you asked who would do the labor of divvying up the housework. Because, yeah, you're right, if the woman just assigns the guy a bunch of chores, that's probably not gonna work out great. You're arguing against something I never said Yes and as I have said in very clear words written right here in this thread in English (what was that about "communication skills"?) , a chore chart is not the solution. The man in the article, whom you very obviously act just like, did not shirk his chores because they weren't written down for him. You don't do whatever filthy lazy dickheaded things you do because you don't have a checklist either. If that was the problem, a big swingin' dick like you could probably use some of your throbbing brainpower to write himself a list, couldn't he? You are doing the exact thing the article is about, right here. Learned helplessness. You're pretending you can't read, can't understand, that the problem with your obstinance is only that a woman has failed to cater to you enough. FAU put together a nice thread to help you be less godawful in this way. Why did you click on it if you aren't interested in learning anything?
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Dec 29, 2016 03:55
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rudatron posted:The easiest set up is just going to be having a list of chores, which you rotate through who is responsible for what depending on the date. I read 'the politics of housework', it suggests 'timesheets' but only as a kind of last resort. It also presents the problem as entirely stemming from some kind of personal failing of the man, which I don't think is necessarily true, or the best takeaway from the situation. The reason businesses have clear, delineated responsibility is because that leads to less hassle in the long run. Treating a system as something only for 'toddlers' (ie inherently infantilizing) is not constructive, if you're wanting to change people's habits then that's going to take time. What's also not constructive is this assumption you have of my sexism, that's just not true. I take all prejudice seriously, because it leads to a lot of suffering in this world, and i don't like being accused of it out of the blue. It's not an "assumption," rudatron, it's repeated observation. You are consistently, doggedly terrible about all forms of humanity except white men. You are a horrible person and anyone listening to you will become a worse human being.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:57
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rudatron posted:The easiest set up is just going to be having a list of chores, which you rotate through who is responsible for what depending on the date. I read 'the politics of housework', it suggests 'timesheets' but only as a kind of last resort. It also presents the problem as entirely stemming from some kind of personal failing of the man, which I don't think is necessarily true, or the best takeaway from the situation. The reason businesses have clear, delineated responsibility is because that leads to less hassle in the long run. Treating a system as something only for 'toddlers' (ie inherently infantilizing) is not constructive, if you're wanting to change people's habits then that's going to take time. What's also not constructive is this assumption you have of my sexism, that's just not true. I take all prejudice seriously, because it leads to a lot of suffering in this world, and i don't like being accused of it out of the blue. The reason businesses have clear delineated responsibility is because you are not realistically expected to like or care about your employer and they need to know what you have done and who to blame if it is not done. The reason you should not follow this model in your personal life is because you should not have the same relationship with your partner as you do with your place of work.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:58
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So uh thread seems to be nosediving off target perhaps a change of topic is in order. It was brought up before but boys under performing in schools and education and lower enrollments in higher education, Is it really under performing or are they simply being outdone and more women enrolling at university? Improving performance could also help curtail unemployment and higher levels of homelessness.
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Dec 29, 2016 03:58
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Tarantula posted:So uh thread seems to be nosediving off target perhaps a change of topic is in order. I seem to recall when I was in school it was brought up that because schooling places a lot of emphasis on presentation, boys can often struggle with it because they tend to be socialized to be more concerned with the substance, whereas especially earlier schooling uses form to assess things like ability to write and may often set creative assignments in an attempt to make the work interesting. You can view it as an issue with assessment or as an issue with gendered learning trends, or both.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:01
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OwlFancier posted:If one partner is having an issue with the other not pulling their weight, then the issue is with the one not doing the work being unwilling to do it, assuming, not unreasonably, that the other has mentioned the issue before this point. But a chore chart is very helpful for making the guy understand the issue. If they already agreed who would do what, it's a lot easier to get someone to recognize that they are shirking their agreed upon duties. As opposed to something vague, like you don't do enough housework. It also makes clear how much work the woman is doing. Of course there's gonna be a guy who just doesn't care and wants to drink beer and watch the game, but that guy is an rear end in a top hat. If we're starting from the assumption that all men are Ray Romano-style sitcom dads and know they aren't pulling their share but don't care because they're assholes, then gently caress it, sterilize all men and just have women reproduce through cloning.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:01
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yes and as I have said in very clear words written right here in this thread in English (what was that about "communication skills"?) , a chore chart is not the solution. The man in the article, whom you very obviously act just like, did not shirk his chores because they weren't written down for him. You don't do whatever filthy lazy dickheaded things you do because you don't have a checklist either. If that was the problem, a big swingin' dick like you could probably use some of your throbbing brainpower to write himself a list, couldn't he? I gotta be honest, I'm just happy whenever a woman talks about my big swingin' dick and throbbing brainpower
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Dec 29, 2016 04:03
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Do I have internalized sexism if I live alone and don't make my bed every morning, this is a serious question
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Dec 29, 2016 04:03
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Tarantula posted:So uh thread seems to be nosediving off target perhaps a change of topic is in order. Unemployment and homelessness don't have much to do with educational attainment levels. It's a small factor, but far from the biggest one. One of the reasons men are less likely to go into higher ed may be that they have more job opportunities that don't require a college degree. Manual labor jobs are still mostly only open to men.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:04
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Guy Goodbody posted:just have women reproduce through cloning. It does have its appeal. I suppose I am perhaps being overly charitable in assuming that both partners in the relationship might be actually concerned with the wellbeing of each other and generally a sign of that is being willing to put some effort in? Like, if my other half has to write me a sheet of instructions of things to do in order to get me to pull my weight I'm doing something very very wrong in the relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:05
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In university, my roommates and I couldn't get an equitable distribution of housework until we made a literal chore wheel and put everyone's names on a white board with their responsibilities. Entrenched misogyny does not explain why four men couldn't clean a bathroom without such childish measures, but they worked. Sometimes poo poo needs to be spelled out like that.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:07
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Guy Goodbody posted:But a chore chart is very helpful for making the guy understand the issue. If they already agreed who would do what, it's a lot easier to get someone to recognize that they are shirking their agreed upon duties. As opposed to something vague, like you don't do enough housework. It also makes clear how much work the woman is doing. No dude, this is exactly what that article you lied about reading is about. You are an adult. You already "understand the issue." You just don't like the solution to the issue, which is doing chores. You are employing learned helplessness, pretending you're too feebleminded to comprehend something entirely simple that you have no trouble with in other contexts. Again, you are doing a very fundamental thing that is very obvious to everyone but you: There is a problem with your behavior: You don't do your share of chores. The solution you propose is for your SO to change her behavior to make up for your choice not to contribute. Your SO can make you a chart, draw you a picture, do an interpretive dance, or write it in the sky, but if you want to be a spoiled lazy rear end in a top hat you're still going to be one, because the problem is with you. You are in charge of what you do. Not anyone else. And this, my friends and crazy internet MRA stalkers, is toxic masculinity. the trump tutelage posted:In university, my roommates and I couldn't get an equitable distribution of housework until we made a literal chore wheel and put everyone's names on a white board with their responsibilities. Entrenched misogyny does not explain why four men couldn't clean a bathroom without such childish measures, but they worked. Sometimes poo poo needs to be spelled out like that. It actually does, because if you were raised like girls are you wouldn't have thought you could get away with acting like this. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 04:09
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the trump tutelage posted:In university, my roommates and I couldn't get an equitable distribution of housework until we made a literal chore wheel and put everyone's names on a white board with their responsibilities. Entrenched misogyny does not explain why four men couldn't clean a bathroom without such childish measures, but they worked. Sometimes poo poo needs to be spelled out like that. I wonder if there might possibly have been a difference in your four-man relationship that might separate it from a male-female cohabitation relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:09
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OwlFancier posted:I seem to recall when I was in school it was brought up that because schooling places a lot of emphasis on presentation, boys can often struggle with it because they tend to be socialized to be more concerned with the substance, whereas especially earlier schooling uses form to assess things like ability to write and may often set creative assignments in an attempt to make the work interesting. Yea one of the things I hear often brought up with regards to this is boys behavior is seen more as disruptive compared to girls behavior, this isn't helped that girls are conditioned to sit still and not make a fuss, i'd be interested to hear a teachers opinion on this type of thing, if they think boys are more often discouraged instead of encouraged. Another thought that popped into the walnut I call my brain is school shootings and mass shootings, yes I think we are all aware of the causes and why men/boys are more often going to commit these acts but society has clearly failed to address these issues and seems unwilling to actually search for early warning signs or offer help and outreach to the boys/men that desperately need it.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:09
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Guy Goodbody posted:Of course there's gonna be a guy who just doesn't care and wants to drink beer and watch the game, but that guy is an rear end in a top hat. If we're starting from the assumption that all men are Ray Romano-style sitcom dads and know they aren't pulling their share but don't care because they're assholes, then gently caress it, sterilize all men and just have women reproduce through cloning. This was culturally normal 50 years ago. Culture doesn't change simply be expecting everyone "not to be an rear end in a top hat." It also happens in lesser ways than the standard sitcom dad. For instance, a man might be happy to do his share of the dishes (not hard work, visibly improves his environment) but never scrubs a toilet (unpleasant work that can be easily ignored.)
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Dec 29, 2016 04:11
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OwlFancier posted:It does have its appeal. I think you're way off base in assuming that lack of concern about the relationship or the partner or misogyny is the only reason someone doesn't do their share of the housework. Coming up with an equitable division of chores and writing it down is just good common sense. Otherwise you've got both people just sort of doing whatever, and it's basically guaranteed that they're gonna have different standards of cleanliness. A woman might end up doing all the vacuuming because she thinks you need to vacuum every week and the guy thinks every month, and so he never vacuums just because he always thinks the carpets are fine. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his wife.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:11
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rscott posted:Do I have internalized sexism if I live alone and don't make my bed every morning, this is a serious question No it's only internalized sexism if you're a man filling the home maker role or a stay at home dad and do most of the chores
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Dec 29, 2016 04:13
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Guy Goodbody posted:I think you're way off base in assuming that lack of concern about the relationship or the partner or misogyny is the only reason someone doesn't do their share of the housework. Coming up with an equitable division of chores and writing it down is just good common sense. Otherwise you've got both people just sort of doing whatever, and it's basically guaranteed that they're gonna have different standards of cleanliness. A woman might end up doing all the vacuuming because she thinks you need to vacuum every week and the guy thinks every month, and so he never vacuums just because he always thinks the carpets are fine. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his wife. If only someone had written a nice clear article about why that exact specific attitude is a problem.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:14
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OwlFancier posted:I wonder if there might possibly have been a difference in your four-man relationship that might separate it from a male-female cohabitation relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:14
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Guy Goodbody posted:I think you're way off base in assuming that lack of concern about the relationship or the partner or misogyny is the only reason someone doesn't do their share of the housework. Coming up with an equitable division of chores and writing it down is just good common sense. Otherwise you've got both people just sort of doing whatever, and it's basically guaranteed that they're gonna have different standards of cleanliness. A woman might end up doing all the vacuuming because she thinks you need to vacuum every week and the guy thinks every month, and so he never vacuums just because he always thinks the carpets are fine. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his wife. My ex used to say this all the time "You just have higher standards than me" he said. So I stopped cleaning. After a couple of weeks he said to me "You know, you say you do housework all the time, but this place is filthy!"
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Dec 29, 2016 04:15
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Guy Goodbody posted:I think you're way off base in assuming that lack of concern about the relationship or the partner or misogyny is the only reason someone doesn't do their share of the housework. Coming up with an equitable division of chores and writing it down is just good common sense. Otherwise you've got both people just sort of doing whatever, and it's basically guaranteed that they're gonna have different standards of cleanliness. A woman might end up doing all the vacuuming because she thinks you need to vacuum every week and the guy thinks every month, and so he never vacuums just because he always thinks the carpets are fine. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about his wife. Assuming his wife has a tongue and he ears, I would assume that she might mention to him that he doesn't vacuum much. Or perhaps, had he eyes, he might notice that she does quite a lot of it and wonder if perhaps this might be because she likes the house to be that vacuumed. I again grant that I may not have the same concept of a relationship as you but perhaps if you like a person enough to live with them you might engage your brain at some point along that line and ask if perhaps your other half might like you to do the vacuuming this time? Rather than sit in presumed astonishment as they work around you, marvelling because it is not currently the time for vacuuming and yet vacuuming is occuring. the trump tutelage posted:Are you interested in fixing the situation or indulging in righteous indignation? If it resolves the issue then make the chore wheel and pat yourself on the back for making concrete progress. Perhaps treating your marriage the same way you do your job would not actually be a very good solution to anything except the most superficial of symptoms and you could stand to look a little deeper as to why this is necessary? In the context of fostering greater understanding of men for women, it might not be very helpful to suggest we employ methods designed to facilitate work between inherently hostile parties? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 04:15
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the trump tutelage posted:Are you interested in fixing the situation or indulging in righteous indignation? If it resolves the issue then make the chore wheel and pat yourself on the back for making concrete progress. Are we at this stop on the "goon gets asked to learn new thing" temper tantrum train already?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:15
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:No dude, this is exactly what that article you lied about reading is about. You are an adult. You already "understand the issue." You just don't like the solution to the issue, which is doing chores. You are employing learned helplessness, pretending you're too feebleminded to comprehend something entirely simple that you have no trouble with in other contexts. I wanna make this clear. Here is my suggestion for how to deal with inequitable division of household chores: When two people start cohabitating, they should sit down and decide how to divide up the chores in a way that they both think is fair. That should happen at the start of the cohabitation. If they cannot come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to them both, them they probably shouldn't cohabitate. Also, I don't think making this personal is productive. You don't know me, and I don't know you, so let's not make assumptions about each other.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:16
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Are we at this stop on the "goon gets asked to learn new thing" temper tantrum train already? What am I being asked to learn?
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Dec 29, 2016 04:17
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BarbarianElephant posted:My ex used to say this all the time "You just have higher standards than me" he said. So I stopped cleaning. After a couple of weeks he said to me "You know, you say you do housework all the time, but this place is filthy!" OwlFancier posted:Assuming his wife has a tongue and he ears, I would assume that she might mention to him that he doesn't vacuum much. You know what would also solve this problem? Both of the people talking about chores and comping up with an equitable division of labor when they first loving move in together.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:18
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the trump tutelage posted:In university, my roommates and I couldn't get an equitable distribution of housework until we made a literal chore wheel and put everyone's names on a white board with their responsibilities. Entrenched misogyny does not explain why four men couldn't clean a bathroom without such childish measures, but they worked. Sometimes poo poo needs to be spelled out like that. The more I'm thinking about it, I think it actually does. All the roommates I've had that have been dudes have been slobs. I'm not exactly a neat freak but I live alone because I couldn't deal with having a place that I couldn't bring peole home to because it was trashed. All the same the chores I do to keep things clean are done begrudgingly at best because it really isn't something I think is worth my time, even if that time is probably spent doing something completely unproductive. It's an idea I never considered before.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:18
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