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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I used to think that aikido made sense if you imagined it in a context of swordfighting. Arms-length wrist-grabby grappling is suboptimal in a weaponless wrestling context, but I can imagine the situation arising where two swords lock together so you grab a wrist and send them flying. But then, aikido is from the 20th century, when swords were long obsolete, so idea that idea kind of falls flat. Does Kendo have any grappling associated with it? I assumed for historical purposes it would have retained a few sword on sword clinch maneuvers.
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Feb 24, 2017 23:53
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If it was a historical recreation thing, Ueshiba was the 1920s japan version of a huge weeb
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Feb 24, 2017 23:55
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I'd have to dig into a book to confirm this, but I think aikido is Ueshiba's take on daito-ryu jujutsu, which is closer to a "modern" grappling art instead of a swords-and-knives combative system. I might be mistaken, it's been a while since I read about aikido's roots. You can actually still find schools that teach the latter and claim to have a living lineage however many centuries back, going all HEMA about it wouldn't really make much sense. Ueshiba was pretty weeb, tho, in the sense that he was apparently way nationalist and hung out with right-wing terrorists and loopy cultists.  I really recommend Ellis Amdur's book Dueling with O-Sensei, by the way. Amdur's a bit goony, but the book comes off as a fairly neutral take on aikido's roots. Lots of good stories about Ueshiba's students.
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Feb 25, 2017 00:09
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KildarX posted:Does Kendo have any grappling associated with it? I assumed for historical purposes it would have retained a few sword on sword clinch maneuvers. I've seen a really old Kendo video that had grappling.
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Feb 25, 2017 00:27
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KildarX posted:Does Kendo have any grappling associated with it? I assumed for historical purposes it would have retained a few sword on sword clinch maneuvers. Not really. Footsweeps and throws are 'legal' in police kendo tournaments, but won't score. It's also pretty dangerous, as you are on a hardwood floor. A couple dojo's do what they call 'old style kendo' and have a fair amount of it, but it's not really historical in terms of kendo. Some dojo's do it as a part of 'hazing' on special occasions (birthdays, similar), but it's with a implied consent and always the stronger students who will be exposed to it. (Some Japanese highschool/uni dojo, not so much implied consent, but under the kohai/sempai system, so you can call it cultural consent if you will). On the practical side, taking away 50% of your power in a clinch is a very high risk maneuver. None of the traditional sword arts I've seen and practiced have moves involving grappling once the clinch has started. There would be stuff where you would divert the power of the opponent, but they all focused on then using the 3 foot razor blade in your hand 
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Feb 25, 2017 00:35
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kimbo305 posted:Just parry and move, sort of like how the guy vs TKD was doing to uncommitted kicks. Once the boxer found his range? Threatened with right hands, hooks and body shots? I'm not so sure. Hence the Kai power old dude getting smashed.
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Feb 25, 2017 00:54
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willie_dee posted:Once the boxer found his range? Threatened with right hands, hooks and body shots? I'm not so sure. Hence the Kai power old dude getting smashed. The old man was a fraud and didn't know how to fight at all. That's irrelevant to whether there are non boxing techniques that could manage against a boxing offense.
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Feb 25, 2017 01:13
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kimbo305 posted:The old man was a fraud and didn't know how to fight at all. That's irrelevant to whether there are non boxing techniques that could manage against a boxing offense. I mean a good double leg is a good grappling counter to getting jabbed at.
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Feb 25, 2017 04:59
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KildarX posted:I mean a good double leg is a good grappling counter to getting jabbed at. It surely is. Just better be a -good- double leg, because if you half-rear end it and lead with your face you're getting knocked the gently caress out.
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Feb 25, 2017 11:51
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kimbo305 posted:The old man was a fraud and didn't know how to fight at all. That's irrelevant to whether there are non boxing techniques that could manage against a boxing offense. Oh there are definitely non boxing defences, I just don't think Akido is one of them or that that Akido man would be able to pull a defence off effectively. I want to also see this but for real https://youtu.be/hp9-jKO_K98
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Feb 25, 2017 17:07
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willie_dee posted:I want to also see this but for real A couple related videos later... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl_F9qfxcnc In theory the Muay Thai frame is similar
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Feb 25, 2017 18:56
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Master Wang is probably the second best thing Wing Chun has produced. That dude makes me laugh.
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Feb 25, 2017 19:46
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JaySB posted:A couple related videos later... Right, I want to see it for real.
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Feb 25, 2017 21:32
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willie_dee posted:Right, I want to see it for real. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WNtL4UKcwA
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Feb 25, 2017 21:52
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I wrestled a muscle lady and accidentally grabbed a handful of her vagina. Then she squatted me. Then we had booze afterwards. It was cool, can't wait to have disposable income so I can do more of it.
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Feb 25, 2017 21:57
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willie_dee posted:Right, I want to see it for real. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtQdCuxuWXw
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Feb 25, 2017 21:57
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Lol exactly as I said before, thought so. Thanks.
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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willie_dee posted:that Akido man Again, he was scamming his students for all he was worth, not someone remotely serious about aikido. If aikido has anything to offer, we could never learn that from watching a video of him "fighting."
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Feb 25, 2017 22:48
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kimbo305 posted:Again, he was scamming his students for all he was worth, not someone remotely serious about aikido. If aikido has anything to offer, we could never learn that from watching a video of him "fighting." Agreed. Which is why we have 0 video of any Akido working for real ever.
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Feb 25, 2017 23:05
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I just remembered there actually is an aikido school that competes. It's called shodokan (sometimes called Tomiki aikido after the founder) and the matches look something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eExZFSfelZc Search for 徒手乱取 on Youtube and you'll find a bunch of videos. (At least I hope I used the correct runes.) You can't grab the other guy's gi so it's even more playing pattycake than the aikido vs BJJ videos earlier, but if I squint I can sorta see familiar stuff. Edit: But to be entirely fair I see familiar stuff when I watch freestyle wrestling and that's 100% more entertaining than this. Edit2: Oh, this isn't actively embarrassing to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAFMMci9dS0 Siivola fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 23:40
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willie_dee posted:Agreed. Which is why we have 0 video of any Akido working for real ever. If you think all aikido schools are scams, that's a pretty narrow viewpoint. Also if this is a troll from your repeated misspelling of aikido, 
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Feb 26, 2017 04:50
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kimbo305 posted:If you think all aikido schools are scams, that's a pretty narrow viewpoint. No its not, genuinely interested in the discussion. I think the over all art is a scam, and that different clubs are probably more aware of how much of a scam it is, vs not aware at all and genuinely believe they are teaching good things. willie_dee posted:
I am sorry for misspelling, I genuinely had never noticed it had an extra i in the Aikido.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:05
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Siivola posted:
Disagree.
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Feb 26, 2017 16:07
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What do you th ink of this move! Thanks, Sensei
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Feb 26, 2017 23:33
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So I've been training BJJ for about a month now. It's really a lot of fun. I've noticed that I've got some bruising on my chest. I'm assuming it's from sparring. I tend to end up on the bottom being mounted or in side control a lot while sparring. Is this something that I should worry about or will this lessen over time? They aren't sore nor do they hurt. They're just kind of there. Is there anything I can eat or make sure I get into my diet to help prevent this?
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Feb 27, 2017 04:20
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mariooncrack posted:So I've been training BJJ for about a month now. It's really a lot of fun. I've noticed that I've got some bruising on my chest. I'm assuming it's from sparring. I tend to end up on the bottom being mounted or in side control a lot while sparring. Is this something that I should worry about or will this lessen over time? They aren't sore nor do they hurt. They're just kind of there. Is there anything I can eat or make sure I get into my diet to help prevent this? By bruising what do you mean? Like, bruises from impacts? Because I got a ton of them, assumed it was normal after receiving knee on belly etc More knowledgeable posters will tell you otherwise if I'm wrong I'm sure.
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Feb 27, 2017 04:44
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mariooncrack posted:So I've been training BJJ for about a month now. It's really a lot of fun. I've noticed that I've got some bruising on my chest. I'm assuming it's from sparring. I tend to end up on the bottom being mounted or in side control a lot while sparring. Is this something that I should worry about or will this lessen over time? They aren't sore nor do they hurt. They're just kind of there. Is there anything I can eat or make sure I get into my diet to help prevent this? I used to bruise a lot more but it got less worse as I would train. Just keep at it and rest if you're hurt more seriously.
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Feb 27, 2017 07:49
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That aikido video actually just look exactly like a local judo tournament, right down to the middle school gym venue. And the fighting looks like low grade Judo. Aikido people who want to compete should just go do Judo.
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Feb 27, 2017 18:47
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hi liter posted:Aikido people who want to compete should just go do Judo. While, true, I think that's not the argument being made here. It's that, if we made someone advanced in aikido compete under judo or BJJ rules, whether there are basic elements of the style (that'd be on display) that would make it effective and yet markedly different from typical gi grappling techniques.
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Feb 27, 2017 19:24
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kimbo305 posted:While, true, I think that's not the argument being made here. Can we characterize it as gi grappling if the competition rules we found forbid gi gripping?
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Feb 27, 2017 19:31
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kimbo305 posted:While, true, I think that's not the argument being made here. People in BJJ and Judo train specifically for their sport. This question is similar in my mind to 'what would make a rugby player good in the NFL?'. The have to run fast, hit hard and be strong and athletic. Technique specificity comes from the ruleset and training around that ruleset. To be a good competitor in Judo you need strong gripping, balance, endurance, agility, strength, high quality throwing techniques, and at least enough groundwork to survive, even if you can't score or win points there. You need to understand the rules of the game. If you want to be good at judo, go do judo with other judo people. If you want to be good at basketball or soccer, go play those games with those people and challenge yourself.
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Feb 28, 2017 15:52
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hi liter posted:This question is similar in my mind to 'what would make a rugby player good in the NFL?'. The have to run fast, hit hard and be strong and athletic. A very good rugby player would have a huge leg up on jumping into practice and being told, ok, only tackle the guy with the ball after it's hiked. Much more so than someone who'd never played a ball-carrying contact sport before. The difference between that person and someone who doesn't "train" is huge. In the same vein, someone who does live aikido would show better than someone who'd never actually grappled in their life. I don't care if they are blind to specific tactics and keep getting owned by some basic throw; I just want to see what they try to do in a live setting. The aikido championship videos help with that, in that the ruleset is vaguely familiar and produces action that is comprehensible.
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Feb 28, 2017 16:14
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I agree that someone who has done live training in Aikido would do better in grappling/a fight than someone who's never grappled before. I also think though that if you took a couple reasonably smart people with no combat sports background at all, and got them together a few times a week and just told them to live grapple against each other and figure out what works and what doesnt and write it down, after like a year theyd probably have come up with a better grappling martial art than Aikido, and be better fighters than someone who trained Aikido for an equivalent amount of time. I think the overall body of techniques and the things they encourage are bad enough that youd be worse off doing Aikido (without cross training for context) than just doing whatever I think theres some good stuff in Aikido but its outweighed by the bad. Ive known people who kinda make Aikido work but theyre always big strong guys who mostly can only get the techniques to work on smaller people. I think its a good art for police or bouncers or whatever because in those situations you often have a size/sobriety/numbers/people not wanting to punch a cop advantage and its good to know some basic pain compliance like standing wrist locks etc to move people around and not hurt them. If you just packaged that stuff together and taught it as a 2 week course called Bouncer-Fu youd get about as much out of it as most people will ever use Not to diminish the effort of people who have done a lifetime of Aikido, everyone has different reasons for doing martial arts etc and if you do it that long there are plenty of things to take from it
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Feb 28, 2017 23:10
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manyak posted:I agree that someone who has done live training in Aikido would do better in grappling/a fight than someone who's never grappled before. I also think though that if you took a couple reasonably smart people with no combat sports background at all, and got them together a few times a week and just told them to live grapple against each other and figure out what works and what doesnt and write it down, after like a year theyd probably have come up with a better grappling martial art than Aikido, and be better fighters than someone who trained Aikido for an equivalent amount of time. I think the overall body of techniques and the things they encourage are bad enough that youd be worse off doing Aikido (without cross training for context) than just doing whatever Heh the Aikido apologist I know IRL is like 6'5" and 250 lb.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:29
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manyak posted:I think the overall body of techniques and the things they encourage are bad enough that youd be worse off doing Aikido (without cross training for context) than just doing whatever
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Feb 28, 2017 23:31
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CommonShore posted:Heh the Aikido apologist I know IRL is like 6'5" and 250 lb. And you've got me in this thread at 6 ft and 210. (I'm cutting to 190ish starting tomorrow). Which is funny, because my head sensei is about 5.9 and would be BRUTAL in a sparing match. He's a fast sixty year old who also has a black belt in karate, and is nasty when you spar with him. (He does this sometimes with hire ranks). Chances he'd do a wrist lock or two and if it didn't work he'd just out strike the other person.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:58
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LionArcher posted:Which is funny, because my head sensei is about 5.9 and would be BRUTAL in a sparing match. He's a fast sixty year old who also has a black belt in karate, and is nasty when you spar with him. (He does this sometimes with hire ranks). Chances he'd do a wrist lock or two and if it didn't work he'd just out strike the other person. I know that you're defending your art and sensei and all but have you ever seen him spar with someone who's of similar skill level in another martial art? Or even a similar skill level in Aikido
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Mar 1, 2017 00:16
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Siivola posted:This is a really curious argument and I'd really appreciate it if you went into detail. Well my take is there are a limited number of ways two bodies can engage one another in a fight, and some are more efficient and/or readily apparent, which is why so many martial arts with different origins converge on similar techniques, or even like.. when you see two bears fighting each other they use underhooks and do hip tosses and stuff. I think if you took some athletic competitive people and just gave them a ruleset of "you win by pinning the other person, choking them, or locking a joint" and no other instruction theyd eventually come up with something resembling catch wrestling for instance after a lot of live training, just through trial and error. And my opinion is that what youd get taught at an Aikido school would be a worse use of your time than simple trial and error from scratch, which is kind of the baseline in my mind for deciding if someone has something worth teaching/tradition worth keeping Like when I go to BJJ i learn techniques that i wouldnt have come up with on my own because theres a long line of people competing and thinking about BJJ and that work of trial and error is truncated for me by the instructor/whoever. If i went there and was taught techniques that were either intuitively obvious, or worse, didnt actually work, then it would be a waste of my time to pay for instruction when i could just be rolling and figuring it out myself. Thats the goal of tradition, ideas being passed down so that you dont have to do the work of coming upon them yourself, etc More to the point, most Aikido techniques, like this one i picked at random, would never ever work the way theyre taught and would be modified or discarded quickly under the pressure of natural selection from live training/competition, and so are only interesting for aesthetic or historical reasons (all this is assuming your main goal is to be able to actually fight or defend yourself or whatever nebulous thing). Boxers dont throw a cross the way they do because someone hundreds of years ago told them to - it evolved as the most efficient way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwPgkyalKxI&t=36s Really its just a long-winded way of saying the obvious, that techniques that actually "work" come out of thoughtful, goal-oriented, live practice or competition. Thats the quickest way to end up with something thats actually useful, and tradition is only worth as much as how it gets you to that point. Aikido has a lot of tradition thats a waste of time. Sorry for rambling but you did ask for detail
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Mar 1, 2017 00:35
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manyak posted:Well my take is there are a limited number of ways two bodies can engage one another in a fight, and some are more efficient and/or readily apparent, which is why so many martial arts with different origins converge on similar techniques, or even like.. when you see two bears fighting each other they use underhooks and do hip tosses and stuff. I think if you took some athletic competitive people and just gave them a ruleset of "you win by pinning the other person, choking them, or locking a joint" and no other instruction theyd eventually come up with something resembling catch wrestling for instance after a lot of live training, just through trial and error. And my opinion is that what youd get taught at an Aikido school would be a worse use of your time than simple trial and error from scratch, which is kind of the baseline in my mind for deciding if someone has something worth teaching/tradition worth keeping Here's the only video I could find of that technique, known in Judo as Uki Otoshi, working in competition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVt6VgJK_8c  Uki Otoshi is the first technique in the judo throwing kata because it's pretty much a straight example of the principle of kuzushi.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:40
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JaySB posted:I know that you're defending your art and sensei and all but have you ever seen him spar with someone who's of similar skill level in another martial art? Or even a similar skill level in Aikido Yes. Dude did so with another black belt (cross trainer in aikido, he's a sensei in Karate and owns a dojo). My sensei got him to tap out.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:46
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