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I'm surprised long phrasing passwording hasn't become a universal standard by now. Every site is still "minimum 8 chars, 1 number, 1 capital, 1 symbol" Listen rear end in a top hat, S1y61$brp3 is NOT more secure than thisfuckingdumbpasswordeatsmyassforever Nobody will guess it, nobody will crack it in a million years.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:19
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i get that it may not be best practices or whatever the poo poo, but i would at least wish people that call in would not have huge shitfits that would leave a toddler muttering "jesus christ"
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Feb 8, 2017 22:01
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Loving Life Partner posted:I'm surprised long phrasing passwording hasn't become a universal standard by now. It's a pain in the rear end to type
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Feb 10, 2017 18:07
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https://www.grc.com/haystack.htm Just add a bunch of symbols to the end of a dictionary word and see how long it takes to crack.
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Feb 10, 2017 19:46
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Loving Life Partner posted:I'm surprised long phrasing passwording hasn't become a universal standard by now. i, too, have read xkcd before
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Feb 22, 2017 04:24
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Man, I wish I knew about this thread before I quit my call center job 5 months ago. Let me tell you my two weeks notice period felt like the afterglow of the best sneeze I ever had stretched for the entire period. I worked at a small internet hosting company, starting in the website design team. The point of the team was a retention measure: customers would buy our crappy do-it-yourself website creator program, think "This looks nothing like my business!" and cancel it immediately. We were tasked with getting into a site after the sale was placed, but before the customer saw it, to make it look prettier and more customized. It was $10 an hour temp work, but we were expressly forbidden from touching the phones on our desks, so it was great! I was learning a lot, and producing highly customer rated websites at a faster rate than my coworkers to the point where I became the go-to guy for any trouble cases and got a $1 per hour raise for it. Of course, that didn't last, and it gradually became more and more phone-focused, leading to panic attacks and deepening depression, before finally, on the first day of my supervisor's yearly vacation, before I even got in for my 10am-6pm shift, the manager brought the team into his office, told them the design work was being shifted to the Philippines, and we were strictly phone-based from here on out. From there, I switched to the technical support team for that same website creator. If I was going to be on the phones, I might as well be full time, get a $0.20 raise, and healthcare. Besides, they offered to put me on the custom code team, which meant a little off-phone work...which lasted until three months later, before the GM killed the custom code team. I spent that year walking customers through basic website creator editing, domain issues, billing, and getting yelled at because I didn't support the product the customer was calling about and had to send them to the Filipino technical support team. By the end of this year, I could get a customer's account details verified, explain the difference between a DNS point and transfer of registrar, and walk the customer through performing a DNS point in 4 minutes flat. By Friday night (because, at the end, by some miracle, I was able to work a dream shift of 10am-6pm Monday through Friday), my mouth would be sore and loose from giving the company spiel at the beginning of each call. One day, I was walking into the office thinking, "This is it. This is the day I loving quit. I can't loving take this anymore." That same day, I was offered a 2nd level position on the newly reformed design team. Well, "2nd level," officially we can't have a 2nd level agent, so on paper you're going to be a 1st level agent in charge of website reviews, but it'll be fine, you'll have people under you (but not officially) and you'll be next in line for a supervisor position! At first, it was great. I'd QA the living poo poo out of the Filipino team's website designs, give them detailed notes, and wound up getting decent material out of them. Meanwhile, I had two agents directly under me doing website review work and another 6 unofficially under me due to being the senior agent and our little cadre being separated from the rest of the team due to a seating issue. The only time I'd take a call is the occasional supervisor call. My panic attacks stopped. I'm sure you see where this is going. New manager, two new supervisor positions handed to specific other people without them being officially offered to the rest of the company (one was a friend of the first supervisor, the other was a diversity hire from a temp position thanks to the company getting hit with a lawsuit), and a whole lot of other departmental changes meant more and more of my 2nd level duties were stripped from me, piece by piece. First, I was back on the phones when our lines got busy. Then, I was tasked with writing training documentation for another product entirely, and, well, isn't that funny, OutOfPrint's the only person who really knows the product, let's put him on 1st level calls for it. Then they took away supervisor privileges from me for our call monitoring platform, despite being the only person in my department to take the time to figure out how to get decent information out of it and gave those rights to a buddy of mine without telling me they were doing it. Finally, I was back on 1st level website creator calls, and my panic attacks came roaring back so badly that I couldn't function and had to get my therapist to fill out paperwork for my HR department stating that I can't perform the actions asked of me with the changes in my job description. Incidentally, they changed my job description without notifying me. Not just my unofficial 2nd level stuff; they added a line stating that I would take 1st level calls for my, and any other, department as needed. Neat stuff! In short, I held three jobs there, all three were phone bank, and only one of which I knew was going to be phone bank when I signed up for it. I worked there for five years, four of which were on the phones, one of which I actually signed up to be on the phones. I was passed up for promotion twice due to office politics and a diversity lawsuit, unofficially demoted, and passed up for two other jobs in my company (one for a trainer position for which I apparently gave one of the best presentations their manager had ever seen, but the job went to the guy whose Facebook page was flooded with vacation pictures that just happened to feature two other trainers, and another in our Fraud department because they genuinely just liked the other guy more. I can't argue with that one.). There were some good parts to it, but holy Hell am I glad to be out of it. As a thanks for sticking around until the end of this rant, here's the best call I ever had: CUSTOMER: Hi, I can't edit my website. It's not doing things. ME: Okay, which internet browser are you using? CUSTOMER: Ask Jeeves. I mentally shut down for a solid 10 seconds after hearing that. Turns out he was using AOL, which is still a mindfuck considering it was 20-goddamn-13.
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Feb 23, 2017 21:11
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AOL still has millions of subscribers, most of them are inactive but you'll still see a few here and there. Their business model is actually threatened significantly by the fact that all the baby boomers who are still unknowlingly subscribed and paying for dial up access at $X/month and have been since the 90s are starting to die off. They never canceled because they didn't realize they are signed up, or they still think they need AOL access because that's how the internet works and they pay for that on top of comcast or whoever their ISP is. Seriously, this is a real thing they talk about on earnings calls. AOL planned for this from the beginning, the massive amount of money spent conflating internet access with "AOL service" in the 90s was one of the most effective long term investments any company has made, ever. Pryor on Fire fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 25, 2017 |
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Feb 25, 2017 20:47
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i want to be able to tap into whatever force assholes have that let them know that we're closing for the night soon and should call in NOW to pitch a fit. always 6pm
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Mar 7, 2017 01:14
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I been out of call centers for 7 months but the toll on my mental health from the last 6 years has been heavy. The consistent stress of worrying about being back stabbed, having your day regulated like a prisoner and being overly positive all the time to keep appearances is slowly becoming undone but I already tired to commit suicide a few weeks ago. I was so scared to admit this to my boss as I tried to do this 3 years ago during my first attempt. My old supervisor at the call center took advantage of the situation I explained my feelings and how I needed some time off to deal with things. I could only get to doctor appointments or sessions with a counselor if I played by his rules (aka doing overtime to make his bosses happy) or use my vacation which always got declined by him because it shouldn't be used that way. They did a campaign to get people to remove the sigma of mental health, but it was lip service as they still treated you like poo poo if you admitted it. Now I work for a regional Grocery chain and I am doing payroll for the retail support warehouse. I talked to my current boss and he told me to take the week off to get things sorted out. I cried because I never had anyone who ever cared about my mental health and trying to get better. My HR manager checked to make sure I had people to talk to if I relapsed and they are working with me to make sure I get to appointments with my doctor and the mental health clinic in town with alt work times on those days. It makes life easier when your employer embraces the work life balance than telling you that they do and then make you a slave to their needs 100% of the time. I hate to admit it but I should not have been in call centers in the first place. My province (New Brunswick) attracts them like flies with payroll rebates and loans with no payback periods to have these companies come into the economically disadvantaged areas of the province rather than companies that requires a skilled labor force and having to negotiate with them. The Counselor at the mental health clinic told me that she had seen 10x more cases in the last 5 years and the majority of them are from call center employees who are in the phone.
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Mar 8, 2017 18:29
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OutOfPrint posted:rant omitted to save space Reading this gave me flashbacks to working for a crooked webhosting company that lied to and exploited their customers almost as much as they lied to and exploited their employees. Though what they would do was advertise a 'free website development program' (Microsoft Front Page), then when the customer called in because it was an ancient program that barely worked, we had to try to sell them on a website development contract.
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Mar 8, 2017 20:09
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Whiskey A Go Go! posted:I been out of call centers for 7 months but the toll on my mental health from the last 6 years has been heavy. The consistent stress of worrying about being back stabbed, having your day regulated like a prisoner and being overly positive all the time to keep appearances is slowly becoming undone but I already tired to commit suicide a few weeks ago. I was so scared to admit this to my boss as I tried to do this 3 years ago during my first attempt. My old supervisor at the call center took advantage of the situation I explained my feelings and how I needed some time off to deal with things. I could only get to doctor appointments or sessions with a counselor if I played by his rules (aka doing overtime to make his bosses happy) or use my vacation which always got declined by him because it shouldn't be used that way. They did a campaign to get people to remove the sigma of mental health, but it was lip service as they still treated you like poo poo if you admitted it. I did it for 8 months and I felt like I was near-suicidal by the end of it and I don't know if I would have made it without my wife's support. It's several years behind me now but it's still a vivid memory and I never lost all the weight I gained. It's tough out there; good luck.
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Mar 10, 2017 04:43
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Whiskey A Go Go! posted:The Counselor at the mental health clinic told me that she had seen 10x more cases in the last 5 years and the majority of them are from call center employees who are in the phone. My therapist once told me 2/3 of her patients were call center workers. I'm getting out. April 29 will be my last day on the phones. Still don't know what I'll find after, but I'm quitting. Can't take it anymore. Our company was acquired by a worse company. Pulled back in from being work at home for over a year. Increasingly restrictive dress code. HR screwing with my ADA request to bring in my expensive chair that doesn't cause my literal pain. Gotta get out, gotta get out.
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Mar 10, 2017 04:53
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Sub Rosa posted:Increasingly restrictive dress code. HR screwing with my ADA request to bring in my expensive chair that doesn't cause my literal pain.  I understand a dress code for a loving CALL CENTER that dictates, say, slacks/khakis & polos. More preferable is something as laid back as, say, jeans and a non-offensive T-shirt. How restrictive can you get in a drat call center?
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Mar 10, 2017 15:11
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Takuan posted:Reading this gave me flashbacks to working for a crooked webhosting company that lied to and exploited their customers almost as much as they lied to and exploited their employees. Though what they would do was advertise a 'free website development program' (Microsoft Front Page), then when the customer called in because it was an ancient program that barely worked, we had to try to sell them on a website development contract. Hah! Yeah, sounds like something my old company would do. My old company did some super shady poo poo, including stuff that skirted outright fraud, telling 1st level agents who had customers calling in to (justifiably) complain about stuff we knew didn't work as advertised to say, "Oh, that's new. Let us look into it and we'll let you know in the next few days." They made that even more fun when they introduced sales quotas for all support agents. It was "sell this load of poo poo product you know full well is a load of poo poo or get written up." The company really, really pushed a terrible 1st party implementation of a genuinely good 3rd party product that was broken for most of our customers who purchased it. It could only accept X submissions per month for all people who purchased it through our company, instead of per specific customer, due to our parent company loving up the wording in the contract. Any submissions over X wouldn't process, and the customer would receive no confirmation that their submission was not processed. This was a known issue for a full year until it was finally fixed. Looking back on it, I'm pretty sure this pigheaded culture made us do some downright illegal poo poo. Part of the problem is that it's the US branch of a foreign company, and when the parent company said "jump," we were all, from 1st level temps to the general manager, expected to skip past asking "how high?" and just loving jump, no matter what issues may be dangling right above our heads. I'm glad to see people in this thread escaping call center work for healthier alternatives. There are people who genuinely like this kind of work, but for people like us, the best thing we can do is get out. No job is worth your mental health.
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Mar 10, 2017 19:58
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I often feel guilty about how *affected* I was by three years in a call center. I got out in August 2010 but I still have nightmares about my current employer buying out my former employer (very unrealistic, completely different industries) or that I lost my job and have to go back to my former employer (also unrealistic, they probably figured out I was the one reporting all the federal labor law violations). When I first got out, I sometimes would panic that I was having a dream about escaping the call center.
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Mar 10, 2017 23:34
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D34THROW posted:
It's a perfect example of how little "professionalism" has to do with actually going your goddamned job.
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Mar 11, 2017 13:01
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Now you've done it, the "must look professional at all times" dipsticks are already on their way
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Mar 11, 2017 13:46
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I honestly couldn't give a poo poo what people wear when they're not customer facing, although I will say that at my last employer we had actual definite evidence that performance and productivity was notably worse on days when staff were allowed to dress down.
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Mar 11, 2017 15:11
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Fil5000 posted:I honestly couldn't give a poo poo what people wear when they're not customer facing, although I will say that at my last employer we had actual definite evidence that performance and productivity was notably worse on days when staff were allowed to dress down. My group switched to a more relaxed dress code about a year ago. The previous dress code was business casual, no sneakers, jeans only on Fridays. We moved to company minimum...clean jeans and sneakers OK anytime, just no flip flops or shorts and wear a nice shirt with a collar on it. Change in productivity...none! Increase in morale...slight! Image with clients and within company...unchanged! I dress up to old standards if I'm on my first day of training new reps, or I have a meeting with someone higher than my direct manager, or if the company or management asks. Beyond that, I don't worry about it.
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Mar 11, 2017 18:03
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Fil5000 posted:I honestly couldn't give a poo poo what people wear when they're not customer facing, although I will say that at my last employer we had actual definite evidence that performance and productivity was notably worse on days when staff were allowed to dress down. My gripe with dress codes was how uneven they were. We CSRs had to wear slacks/skirts, business-friendly shirts and and dress shoes, but the supervisors can wear leggings with a flimsy blouse and sandals and that's okay? Sub Rosa posted:My therapist once told me 2/3 of her patients were call center workers. It's been ten months since I quit working in call centers. The last center I worked at hired us through a local temp agency for a government contract at $X/hr. The first year, the parent company was very hands off and let us do what we needed to help the callers. Then, in year 2, we all get hired by the center as permanent employees at $(X - 4)/hr. We were told that was done to pay for benefits. But when we were with the temp agency, we had benefits. Then the parent company started giving us scripts so poorly written, that I wondered if the writers had ever heard humans speak before. Then, the parent company created a policy where if we spent too much time (in their opinion) in one state, someone would read our names and the state over a walkie talkie system held by the supervisors. (Example: If I overstayed my break, "constantIllusion, Break 16 minutes," if I was on a call too long when there was a hold time, "constantIllusion, inbound 16 minutes.") That evolved into supervisors literally following CSRs into the cafeteria and the bathroom. Then they started changing our jobs around, with us being on inbound only, then outbound only, then suddenly we get the call from central command to go inbound for the remainder of the shift. Then we were prohibited from putting callers on hold (we had to use the Mute button instead.) After 15 months at that place, and realizing I spent almost 4 years of my life working at call centers in general, I put in my two weeks notice and quit without having another job lined up. I'm glad at my new job, I don't have to speak to customers at all.
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Mar 12, 2017 00:01
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Have been doing training for a new Call Center job, my third so far. First was tech support for Comcast, then concierge services for OnStar, this last one is for a banking institution and I'm only taking calls regarding inquiries and not sales so I expect it at the very least to be better than the last two. Pay is fantastic for the area, the building is a 2 minute walk from my front door, and I have years of experience. Despite all this I still find myself dreading tomorrow, our first day taking actual calls, and not because of the customers. The main program they have us using to view customer accounts is from 1994 and barely works, and I've just been running through scenarios where I'll forget how to do all the lovely run around they expect of us to make it work for the most simple poo poo. I know it'll be easy after the first few, it always is, but I can't help but have this pit in the bottom of my stomach when I think about tomorrow and it's ruining my loving weekend.
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Mar 12, 2017 16:06
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Fil5000 posted:I honestly couldn't give a poo poo what people wear when they're not customer facing, although I will say that at my last employer we had actual definite evidence that performance and productivity was notably worse on days when staff were allowed to dress down. A couple years ago I read an article on this. It's true! Casual days do cause a measurable lapse in productivity. However, it's not the clothes that are doing it but the difference. Since people are used to getting dressed up for work, when they don't have to, it subconciously doesn't feel like work. If the dress code is always more relaxed (similar to what blackmet describes, not stuff like flip-flops) there's no long-term drop at all, though there is a decrease for the first while after the change as people get used to it. And, of course, it means people are more comfortable. I can't find it now, of course, but it seemed reasonable at the time.
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Mar 13, 2017 07:34
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That's interesting man...that's loving interesting
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Mar 13, 2017 07:54
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jesus loving christ i am so sick of loving tax questions. all i've goddamn done all day for the past 2 months are just answering where the 1099 is, why there isn't a 5498 and things like that and i can't stand it anymore. and then i realized that this poo poo won't end till may because people are lazy, gormless shits who can't do anything on time i've been browsing indeed and other job sites trying to find entry level jobs in my field, with no luck so far 
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Mar 13, 2017 17:31
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constantIllusion posted:Then we were prohibited from putting callers on hold (we had to use the Mute button instead.) Why is this a big deal? As a customer I'd always prefer dead air to being on hold, and honestly it isn't that hard to chew the dead air.
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Mar 14, 2017 05:21
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Sub Rosa posted:Why is this a big deal? As a customer I'd always prefer dead air to being on hold, and honestly it isn't that hard to chew the dead air. Silence is almost always better than the hold music. I've begged vendor support people not to use the Hold button if their music was bad. Come to think of it, Apple had good songs at a really, really crappy quality. That was actually worse than bad music because it ruined what could have been good. I have yet to find a VOIP system that allowed a reasonable bitrate for the hold music; Shoretel I'm looking in your direction.
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Mar 14, 2017 05:45
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For some places that record calls for QA they can still hear what the rep says while on mute, whereas the mic is off when hold is used.
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Mar 14, 2017 15:22
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I forget who it was but one time I got put on hold and their hold music was this jazz version of the pink panther theme. Only time I actually liked the hold music outside the time the guy put me "on hold" by setting the phone down by the radio. Sure, I'm down for some Black Sabbath while you figure out whatever it was I was calling about! 
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Mar 14, 2017 19:01
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When I did tech support for dsl I loved calling the NOC because their hold music was this trance stuff that you'd sit and listen to for awhile because they always took a minute to answer the picks.
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Mar 14, 2017 22:26
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PenguinKnight posted:i want to be able to tap into whatever force assholes have that let them know that we're closing for the night soon and should call in NOW to pitch a fit. always 6pm It's when they get off work. Likely so they can shout at someone who doesn't live with them.
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Mar 15, 2017 03:57
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Highbrow Slick posted:For some places that record calls for QA they can still hear what the rep says while on mute, whereas the mic is off when hold is used. Our place was the opposite. We had physical mute switches between the headset and phone. They could listen to us on hold, nothing on mute. The switches weren't provided (at least when I started) so they were these coveted things that older employees gave to newer ones on leaving.
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Mar 15, 2017 05:42
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Hola goons, My girlfriend has just got an offer to work for a call centre for an utilities company. Does anyone have any advice on what to expect? The pay is excellent and well above what she'd be making retail and she is currently studying Secondary Education (I.e. High school teaching), so she has a defined end date (which is three years), so hopefully it shouldn't be too bad (hah hah hah)??
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Mar 15, 2017 07:41
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Guni posted:Hola goons, If she can learn to go on autopilot and tune out, it's fine. What department is she going into? Customer service is generally lower effort and lower stress than, say, collections, but as long as she can hit all the bits on each call that the compliance people want her to, it's basically fine. It's not interesting or fulfilling, but it's fine.
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Mar 15, 2017 09:55
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. Meow Tse-tung fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Mar 15, 2017 12:46
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So does every call center use ridiculously out of date systems or just the three I've worked at? Current one was made in 1994 and still has all the icons from Windows 95 baked in. Also we need to use DOS for stuff.
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Mar 16, 2017 14:39
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Verranicus posted:So does every call center use ridiculously out of date systems or just the three I've worked at? Current one was made in 1994 and still has all the icons from Windows 95 baked in. Also we need to use DOS for stuff. Yes. Even in taxi dispatch, I estimate our PCs to be from the mid 2000s and we use a DOS-like interface built in a linux distro. Customers can track their cabs when we have no way to do so (try and explain that to them), and we depend on a laggy Google maps that basically forces us to put the customers on hold. I remember a period of six months when we couldn't even use Google maps since it had been updated and our browsers didn't support it anymore. We also have some "recent" Windows Vista PCs with the linux stuff in a virtual box. The PCs run extremely fast compared to the others, but since the system we use has to be run in a virtual box, it becomes a lot slower and unpredictable so nobody uses them. To contribute to the rant thread, I'll vent for a bit. My new boss decided to cut our night hours because we're apparently too expensive. I used to work part-time until 5 am on weekends and life was good; good pay for 12h a week, not that many calls. Now my pay has basically been cut in half and we have no downtime between calls since I'm working during the busiest shifts. I was even offered to come work one or two more days a week to keep my pay. My supervisor told me that was because the company wasn't profitable anymore but I refuse to believe it. My boss just figured it would be fun to get more profit out of their students, mothers and fathers. The same boss who has refused to give days off to some of my coworkers but has taken a full month vacation six months in. The same boss who quit his job as manager of a company owned by our client to work here. Internal emails have even revealed that he had been designated ahead of time to become our boss, without an interview or anything. Apparently all that poo poo is legal here, and I can't believe it. I can't wait for that ship to sink. I'd love to contribute some funny stories too since we get hundreds of calls from celebs and government officials every night but I don't think there are many Frenchies in this thread, and they wouldn't be that funny to Americans and Brits unfortunately since they all boil down to "see that guy who's always on TV? Yeah, he's an rear end in a top hat."
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Mar 16, 2017 16:49
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Hello goons I just started working for a major phone company in their CS/Billing department, I'm four weeks in (just finished training) and yesterday morning I had a severe panic attack/breakdown at work! I used to work for a bank before the UK banking system went to utter poo poo 10 years ago, and thought that time would have mellowed me out/hardened me to petty bullshit customers, but whoops haha I hate it and want to die The call centre is roughly a 7 min walk to the bus/a 10 minute bus ride or a good ~50 minute walk from where I live, and I'm on 12-12.5 hour shifts depending (one week I work 45 over 4 days, the next week 35 over 3) Buses leave at 7 minutes past the hour late at night so there's virtually zero realistic chance of me being able to catch my bus home unless I try the shady call avoidance poo poo which generally gets sniffed out by the secret police within seconds, which means most nights I'm walking home or begging for lifts from coworkers, and walking in to work at 6:45am every other Sunday  I can deal with the actual calls just fine generally, but the bullshit of every single metric (CSAT surveys where most people give either flat 10s or flat 0s, , First Call Resolution - because I can totally control the people I've spoken to and their capricious whims w/r/t immediately calling back about another issue they never discussed with me, break times logged to the very second, 4 minutes of toilet time per 12 hour day, network promotion, sales transfers, after call work, hold time etc etc) seems unrealistic and extremely nebulous. I can't just switch off when some asshat comes barging on the line demanding to speak to a manager because I'm not poo poo and they're more important than me wasting their precious time. I had a young woman call in Thursday morning complaining about us charging her VAT. Last I checked, if you purchase any single thing ever in the UK, you are charged VAT. She did not understand this! I patiently explained it to her, she called me a oval office and hung up! She was then sent a survey where she scored me flat 0s and said I was a horrendous prick! Managers have to call customers who gave flat 0s back and ask them why and she made up some complete bull about me being abusive/swearing at her (luckily every single call is monitored) I am caring for my elderly senile grandmother in my spare time, she can't even recognize who I am half the time and called me on the way home to congratulate me on getting the job last night, a job I've been telling her about every day So I came into work extremely upset and stressed and had a meltdown to my manager Basically I can see this job destroying my already fragile mental health and should take the 6 weeks~ of training money and run before the 12 shour shifts grind me down. My Team Leader obviously doesn't want this to happen and is scheduling me mental health risk assessments + counselling. What should I do help goons e: Yes I'm in the UK Beasteh fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Mar 18, 2017 |
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Mar 18, 2017 14:38
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Are you in the UK? If so then if your metrics aren't TOTAL garbage and you show up on time and aren't an rear end in a top hat to your coworkers, there's a good chance they'll keep you on anyway. Finding someone who can adhere to a schedule and doesn't act like a tit is about 95% of call centre recruitment. The fact your team lead is trying to arrange help for you rather than finding an excuse to start disciplinary proceedings to shove you out the door is a really good sign too.
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Mar 18, 2017 14:57
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There are definitely jobs where a rotating 3/4 day 36/48 schedule makes sense, but that's way too long to keep people in contact with the hostile public.
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Mar 19, 2017 20:45
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| # ? Apr 28, 2024 10:10 |
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Any tips/tricks for people just getting out of training on how to survive the hellish grind?
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Mar 20, 2017 14:01
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