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Hmm. Seeing how little money we have left makes me retract my support for Parabellum and advance: 3x Gripen: 210m 1x KC-135: 46m 1x EA-6B: 52m 2 ASRAD: 20m 4x Tornados: 120m Total is 448m dollars, which leaves us a sizable amount in the bank, a new tanker, an anti-AAA bird, more Gripens, some AA missiles (I hope these are good), and 4 tornadoes to blow things up. If we need more bombers we can throw 2 phantoms in or something, and we can probably afford another SAM/AA gun system if we need it. As it sounds like somebody (The Dictator?) is running actually good AAA we may want to see if we can get Wacky Willie to hold one of the other SEAD birds till we get a mission in. I am also inclined to throw our support behind The Dictator, as I'm guessing he actually currently controls the lithium and we don't have to deal with his F-16s which could pose a threat to our Gripens. I would rather not deal with someone who is promising to pay us with things they don't have yet. We should be prepared for our employer to sell us out to China for the potential of investment and/or weapons, if we're really worried about this I think the Count is least likely to screw us over. TheGreatEvilKing fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 21:13
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https://www.fmv.se/Global/Dokument/...iten%202015.pdf Yeah, Meteor upgrade is also the SDB upgrade and I don't know why CMANO's got them split other than some Swedish procurement decision that I can't find anything about. Either way, if it slings Meteors, it should also be able to launch SDBs.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:17
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Quinntan posted:http://saabgroup.com/sv/Media/news-press/news/2016-07/gripen-leads-the-world-with-new-operational-capabilities/ I'm pretty sure you're correct. When I brought up the SDB upgrade originally, I assumed that the database difference was software, not that Sweden won't get the SDB till 2018. Whoops. From another article: defense-aerospace.com posted:Version 20 includes not only the Meteor missile. It also integrates the Small Diameter Bomb, SDB.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:20
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Proposal I was going to say, this actually pretty similar to my proposal, the difference is I scale down to just the replacement Gripen so we can buy the fleet of Phantoms and get the other SAMs while still having money left over and not having to sell planes. If you're not 100% on the extra Gripens then I would humbly request your support! Also I vote formally for Angola supporting the Dictator. The Free-Stater's are crazy and honestly I don't want to have to rely on getting funding from a group of guys that have to rely on new stretch goals in their kickstarter. The Count is a good guy, but at the end of the day, he's destabilizing one of the up and coming nations of Sub-Sahara Africa for his own personal nation building project. The Dictator is a bastard, but he holds the Lithium and the infrastructure and it sounds like he actually has a plan to utilize the resources and infrastructure already in place to improve Angola. If we support the Count, we have to accept we might be doing some serious damage to the resource infrastructure of Angola which will impede any actual democratic processes expected to take place.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:21
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ASRADs and the gun AA are not sufficient by themselves unless the enemy plans to attack us with helicopters or maybe biplanes due to having a very short range. We basically need Hawks or the SA-22 or there wasn't much of a reason to bother buying anything.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:22
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And even then, the SA-22's missiles are very short ranged. I'm not sure if the cost of them is worth it.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:23
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Quinntan posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3815107&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=52#post471416047 It's definitely closer to what I'd like to see; I don't think we need quite so many Phantoms and Tornadoes though. Seeing it though I'm going to make this proposal: Plan Quinnabellum 2 JAS 39C Gripens (140,000,000) 2 F-4E Phantoms ( 30,000,000) 6 Tornado IDS (180,000,000) 1 EA-6B ( 62,400,000) 1 KC-135T Stratotanker ( 46,800,000) 2 MIM-23 HAWK ( 48,800,000) This leaves us with 26 million still in the bank, which would give us some breathing room and some extra cushion to supplement our starting retainer.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:31
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Renaissance Spam posted:It's definitely closer to what I'd like to see; I don't think we need quite so many Phantoms and Tornadoes though. Seeing it though I'm going to make this proposal: I'll admit, part of having so many twin seaters like the Phantom and the Tornado in there is to get as many goons as possible airborne. Edit: I take it you're not selling the Hawks, Sk60s and Frogfoots?
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Apr 16, 2017 21:34
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Renaissance Spam posted:It's definitely closer to what I'd like to see; I don't think we need quite so many Phantoms and Tornadoes though. Seeing it though I'm going to make this proposal: Out of curiosity why go with the Statotanker? We've been given the option of the VC-10 K4 for only 23 million. With that exta 20 some odd in the bank we can buy more SAMS, which is what my proposal did.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:37
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Quinntan posted:I'll admit, part of having so many twin seaters like the Phantom and the Tornado in there is to get as many goons as possible airborne. I felt the core goal should be figuring out what we're buying first; Selling the planes is something I'm supportive of but if we're in the black after the buy I don't think it's as big a priority. Jimmy4400nav posted:Out of curiosity why go with the Statotanker? We've been given the option of the VC-10 K4 for only 23 million. With that exta 20 some odd in the bank we can buy more SAMS, which is what my proposal did. As Bacarruda pointed out, the VC-10 K4 carries 22,000 kilos less fuel. Also the Stratotanker despite having a larger fuel capacity has a smaller signature across the board which, while probably not a big deal, could mean we could get the tanker closer to the AO and refuel our planes faster so we can remain engaged. I am very happy to switch it out and add more ground platforms though, depending on what the group is looking for. Renaissance Spam fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 21:38
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Barracuda, where are you getting the information that having more than a million in liquid assets will be useless once we head into theater? Did I miss a post from Yooper confirming there will be no more random events for some reason?
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Apr 16, 2017 21:41
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I wouldn't sell the Hawks. They aren't flashy, but they can mount some guided munitions so they have their uses. By the way, my head hurts trying to figure out all these competing procurement plans and so I'm going to retroactively change my mind and say that from now on, package deals are probably better for our collective sanity.
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Apr 16, 2017 21:42
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Quinntan posted:I'll admit, part of having so many twin seaters like the Phantom and the Tornado in there is to get as many goons as possible airborne. And the Prowler is a quad-seater! Only good things come from EA-6Bs!
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Apr 16, 2017 21:58
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Jimmy4400nav posted:While Gripens are really nice and do a lot of awesome stuff, we really shouldn't put all our eggs in the Gripen basket. IF god forbid we have a bad mission an we lose some planes, being down some older bomb trucks would be significantly better than being down a pair or more of Gripens. Sounds good.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:10
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All of this SAM and AA talk sounds a lot like defeatist talk. By dickering over, and spending more by mixing sources, SAMs and ADA you are literally killing our brave pilots. Pick the winning strategy. SAY NO TO SAMS! If we can get the Meteor/SDB upgrade to our current flock of Gripens, we need to do it. Meteors should give us ~15nm range advantage on The Dictator's F-16s (assuming they're rocking AIM-120Cs, even better if they're only using AIM-120B/As), to say nothing of the engagement range advantage given by the SDBs.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:31
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Which is all well and good up to the moment when someone pulls a Lhasa on us.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:40
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A proper air defense system gives us some really important stuff. It gives us a raid warning, it gives us deterrence of enemy strikes without enemy SEAD (which would give us more chances to get indications of a strike from our contacts, etc). If we don't have some sort of radar and AA defenses we're relying on some sort of continuous CAP of our base, which will quickly become more expensive than an aa system.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:48
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A 'proper ADS' would run us the entire procurement though. And even then, we saw how easy it is to perform a Lhasa raid against a decent ADS. That's a nice spread of HARMs if you don't have a commando team to knock out the radar.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:53
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Coffeehitler posted:A 'proper ADS' would run us the entire procurement though. And even then, we saw how easy it is to perform a Lhasa raid against a decent ADS. That's a nice spread of HARMs if you don't have a commando team to knock out the radar. We did, but the Lhasa raid had the enemy not react to losing their radar by lofting a CAP, perhaps because they were recovering and rearming the J-20 strike. We can presumably be safer and more prepared if we're on the receiving end if we have a decent radar and some sort of missile system. I don't think we should be relying solely on our one AWACS for this sort of thing, it will be unaffordable and unsustainable.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:59
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koolkevz666 posted:Question for the thread: I keep the updated asset list on post #2 on the front page. I'll get some more details on Angola and the Bering operation later tonight. I'll give an idea on payment and mission styles. VKing posted:I found an old article that says the Czech Air Force have a contract with SAAB for upgrading their leased fleet of Gripens to MS20 for ~$70M, but it's a bit vague if that's only for the upgrade or for leasing additional/upgraded aircraft as well. Quinntan posted:http://saabgroup.com/sv/Media/news-press/news/2016-07/gripen-leads-the-world-with-new-operational-capabilities/ Quinntan posted:https://www.fmv.se/Global/Dokument/...iten%202015.pdf Perfect! I agree, from what I'm seeing the Meteor upgrade should also be the SDB upgrade. Let me look into adjusting it with a script and testing that out. Or just bug some nerd on the Matrix forums to update that particular entry.  It looks we have a few plans coming together. Instead of us voting on a dozen different procurement options I'd like to narrow it to 3, or 4, tops. We've got Quinnabelum, Parrabellum, Peanuts, and a half dozen others that might just be ideas to discuss. It looks like we're sticking with solid eurotrash, it's just different flavors. So lets get down to a few and then we'll do an official vote.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:59
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FWIW, I'd still prefer my option, but I'm happy with Peanuts.power crystals posted:By the way, my head hurts trying to figure out all these competing procurement plans and so I'm going to retroactively change my mind and say that from now on, package deals are probably better for our collective sanity. I'm also going to agree with this.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:04
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Is anyone putting together a list with a Growler? It seems to me like if we're going to put up an EWAR airfraft it makes far more sense for it to be capable of fending for itself - otherwise we're going to be sticking one or more Grippens along with it which dilutes our CAP and strike aircraft and in the end reduces our capability more than getting the more expensive plane now and reducing our Grippen order.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:05
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I have to admit that I'm struggling to pick a proposal, though I'd definitely prefer something that leaves us with a comfortable financial margin in case it all goes tits up. As for the SK60B "Dragon Slayers", well, if we end up selling them off we should pass the nickname on to whatever CAS we replace them with. A sort of little tradition, y'know. Also Count me in for Angola! JcDent posted:I Was A Goone And Young  drat straight I'm no heroin smuggler! I'm not ashamed to admit that thanks to stuff like this I'm toying with writing some half-assed story about the SK60Bs hitting the airbase (or at least Survivor and I). It would probably be very subpar though. v  v
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Apr 16, 2017 23:05
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Coffeehitler posted:A 'proper ADS' would run us the entire procurement though. And even then, we saw how easy it is to perform a Lhasa raid against a decent ADS. That's a nice spread of HARMs if you don't have a commando team to knock out the radar. Lhasa didn't have a decent ADS though. They had some Crotales, and a bunch of AAA, but nothing like the medium-range Hawk. That's the problem with only going with short-range IR missiles, they don't have the range and often don't have the altitude.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:05
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Yooper posted:It looks we have a few plans coming together. Instead of us voting on a dozen different procurement options I'd like to narrow it to 3, or 4, tops. We've got Quinnabelum, Parrabellum, Peanuts, and a half dozen others that might just be ideas to discuss. It looks like we're sticking with solid eurotrash, it's just different flavors. I will have you know the F-4 Phantom II is good old Ameri-trash!  Velius posted:Is anyone putting together a list with a Growler? It seems to me like if we're going to put up an EWAR airfraft it makes far more sense for it to be capable of fending for itself - otherwise we're going to be sticking one or more Grippens along with it which dilutes our CAP and strike aircraft and in the end reduces our capability more than getting the more expensive plane now and reducing our Grippen order. The Growler is just too expensive right now. If we had a slightly bigger budget to play with, I'd want to get one in a second; but alas, we don't so we're going to have to go with the inferior Prowler.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:15
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Coffeehitler posted:The Growler is just too expensive right now. If we had a slightly bigger budget to play with, I'd want to get one in a second; but alas, we don't so we're going to have to go with the inferior Prowler. That's my point though - it's clearly very expensive, but if in practice we never use the Prowler without two Grippens babysitting it then it's more efficient to just get the Growler and one to two fewer Grippen. More to the point if it's able to keep up with our fast strike craft it will make it easier to keep the ECM along with SEAD missions, and less likely for screw ups that cost us planes in the long run. What new capabilities do we get with a Growler vs a Prowler + Grippen buy? I think one thing we should also consider are the likely scenarios we might face in the future - to date we've been given full intel of our targets and ample support from allies. Now we've pissed off the Chinese, and depending on what we choose next we might piss off the Soviets or the West in some fashion. Are there certain airframes we'd be most hard pressed to get from alternative vendors in the future? It seems unlikely that the Swedes would cut us off, but the US? More plausible.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:37
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Is speed the only difference between the prowler and the growler or is the growler also more capable of various EW shenanigans? Even if speed is the only difference I also think it's worthwhile to get the growler and reduce the gripped buy.
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Apr 16, 2017 23:45
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Cathode Raymond posted:Is speed the only difference between the prowler and the growler or is the growler also more capable of various EW shenanigans? Prowler Specs Growler Specs A Growler is going to be faster, use two less crew and will be capable of carrying a couple of AAMRAMS and has an internal gun to use. Prowlers are more fuel efficient though and have a larger service range and radius than the Growler. Both will carry the same number of HARM missiles (2 to 4 depending on mission loadout). The EWAR Suite on the Growler is also more advanced than the Prowlers and optimized for use in a two man group. However in the 4 man Prowler, each crew was more specialized and some argue that it allowed the airframe to perform exceptionally in its field since you had a dedicated team on board to respond to situations and manage various EWAR gear. Jimmy4400nav fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 23:55
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Jimmy4400nav posted:Prowler Specs They seem comparable in the EWAR role, but the Growler has an optional ELINT pod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ASQ-228_ATFLIR) with night and adverse weather capability spotting capability and a 40 nm range. I'm not sure what the in-game benefits would be. The Growler also has an AESA radar the Prowler seems to lack. The Growler can mount AMRAAMS and is probably way less vulnerable to intercept by enemy cap, since, you know, it's an F/A-18, not an A-6.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:03
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Cathode Raymond posted:Is speed the only difference between the prowler and the growler or is the growler also more capable of various EW shenanigans? The Growler is faster, stealthier, has better sensors, ESM systems, ECM, offensive jammers, and countermeasures. It can carry more HARMs as well as AMRAAMs. It is objectively better in every respect except flight endurance and range. Jimmy4400nav posted:Both will carry the same number of HARM missiles (2 to 4 depending on mission loadout). The Prowler we can get only carries a single HARM.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:07
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I don't understand the infatuation with Tornados, given the price we're looking at. They're good airplanes, but not worth what they're currently being asked for. $120m for a quartet of obsolete strike bombers is quite a lot, particularly given the gaping holes in our capabilities that we need to fill. (Having more than a single AEW and EW airframe, for instance.)
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Apr 17, 2017 00:09
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MrYenko posted:I don't understand the infatuation with Tornados, given the price we're looking at. They're good airplanes, but not worth what they're currently being asked for. $120m for a quartet of obsolete strike bombers is quite a lot, particularly given the gaping holes in our capabilities that we need to fill. (Having more than a single AEW and EW airframe, for instance.) There's no AEW aircraft available, and the EW aircraft are very expensive. In terms of sheer mud-moving, the Tornado's got a lot going for it, especially with stuff like the KEPD 350 available.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:13
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MrYenko posted:I don't understand the infatuation with Tornados, given the price we're looking at. They're good airplanes, but not worth what they're currently being asked for. $120m for a quartet of obsolete strike bombers is quite a lot, particularly given the gaping holes in our capabilities that we need to fill. (Having more than a single AEW and EW airframe, for instance.) Because they carry lots of yummy weapons, including critical anti-radiation missiles. Also, you need a lot of strike aircraft to make a proper ground attack package, but only one AWACS or EW bird. Having spares for those is nice, but pretty extravagant at this stage.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:15
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I think part of the problem with this procurement process is the available options keep changing as we go. I think in future we should be asking Yooper to check out cool things we like, THEN the vendors provide the list, and then no more changes. We've had at least 3 additions to the potential purchases that have muddied the waters and set people against each other over stuff that is quite similar but with nuanced differences that aren't immediately obvious (tankers/EW). I'm sticking to Baca's plan unless we find out we already have the SDB upgrade or can get it for a nominal sum, in which case remove one Gripen from that order. Tankerchat clarity: we need the boom on the 135 for... something, I forget what. The other tanker doesn't have it, though we should still buy it for 2m and worry about the maintenance later. And if people are worried about the Prowler not being able to defend itself we can give it a nanny Phantom or something, it's fine.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:16
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A current-spec Tornado isn't all that obsolete, and I'd rather have a bunch of B-1s to mow everything down in our path but beggars can't be choosers.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:17
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Yooper posted:Perfect! I agree, from what I'm seeing the Meteor upgrade should also be the SDB upgrade. Let me look into adjusting it with a script and testing that out. Or just bug some nerd on the Matrix forums to update that particular entry. What do you need to script, exactly? I think Quinntan is right, and it's just split in the game since the Swedes didn't introduce the weapons at the same time. The SDB "variant" in CMANO can still use the Meteors. Vando posted:I think part of the problem with this procurement process is the available options keep changing as we go. I think in future we should be asking Yooper to check out cool things we like, THEN the vendors provide the list, and then no more changes. We've had at least 3 additions to the potential purchases that have muddied the waters and set people against each other over stuff that is quite similar but with nuanced differences that aren't immediately obvious (tankers/EW). Agree on all points. VKing fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 00:22
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Honestly, it looks to me like the easiest way would just be changing the 2016 spec Gripens to 2018 ones in the OP and that'd be that.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:22
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  Free State is based out of Cabinda. Their ground forces have managed to push to the outskirts of Luanda before being halted by the Angolan security forces. Progress has been slow so the forces have pushed east looking for a hole. Without the CAS the ground troops have stalled out. On the ground is a variety of conscript locals and mercenary advisors. The main goal is to find a hole, push into the lithium reserves, and either secure them or force the Angolan government to negotiate. On the downside they are a crowdsourced government so todays goal might be tomorrows scapegoat. The Dictator is based out of Luanda. His ground forces are dug in, covered from the air, and perfectly content to let the poor part of the country rot. Except the Dictator wants it all under his control, and then some. His cash reserves have kept his forces flush with the latest ground technology and even some people to tell them how to use it. The tech advantage has served them well. He has the tacit backing of the rest of the world, everyone wants his Lithium and no one wants to step on his toes. As long as the lithium flows no one cares what happens. From Caesar on dictators have a bad rap, and a well earned one. He doesn't take failure well. Von Hoff is based out of Namibe. His ground forces are the most motivated, most aggressive, and dirt poor. If they had a quarter of the cash of the Angolan Army they could easily swamp both sides, with proper air support. To top it off a drought has plagued the region and Namibia has closed the border. There's a tenuous string of supplies moving inland and Von Hoff is determined to win the war and prevent a massive famine. His goal is the same as the others, get the lithium, but his differs in the outcome. He sees Angola as becoming a rich democracy like Norway and not another African kleptocracy. For now they are poor and only Von Hoff's personal fortunate, and lobbying efforts, have kept them afloat.  Mitsuhashi has operation on the Russian side of the Bering Strait. What airfields they have are simple affairs. For them it is all about protecting the massive processing ships. These automated beasts take a flopping fish in one end and spit out a value added fish product out the other. They are expensive, fragile, and wildly profitable. A steady stream of freighters feed them parts and take away the finished product. All they need is everyone else to go away. Prideful to a fault, they see no error, consider themselves always right, and have no issue treating you as the servant. But they pay well. Iceberg is based out of, and headquartered in Alaska. For them this is home and a bunch of no good nipponese are going to run them out. These are the men and women who made the Deadliest Catch what it was. Congress says the Bering Sea is theirs, the WTO says it isn't. A curious bit of wording has the entire arctic fishing up for grabs. For them global warming is a pleasant dream to open more fishing grounds. They need success and they need it fast. AngerPEACE is based out of St. Lawrence Island. They bounce from one field to the next striking where they can and then fleeing into the mist. It's not profitable to try and kill them, just drive them off. At least until they get air assets. These are the environmental zealots that watched everything from the Exxon Valdez to the Great Plains Fire of '22. No more will they stand by. Either you stand with them, or against them, they take their hate to an almost religious level. Don't gently caress with AngerPEACE.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:23
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A friend of mine suggested an idea to me that piqued my interest, but it kind of hinges on certain information. Hey, Yooper, is it possible to source replacement parts for our Phantoms to fix them permanently? How much would it cost? And if we sold our Frogfeet and Hawks, how much would we get? Before anyone makes assumptions, I'm personally of the opinion that they're not too bad for what they offer. e: Just to repeat my vote since now we seem to be on the actual voting stage: support the Count in Angola Soup Inspector fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 00:23
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The thing is, if we dunk on the Free State we can take their poo poo.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:24
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