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TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

lifg posted:

On the other hand, Rails. Which has keeps a lot of programmers employed and has entire ecosystems and specialities and such.

The presence of ecosystems is fine, as is your job being almost entirely within a specific ecosystem. I'm just saying that an ecosystem or a framework should not define you as a developer.

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geeves
Sep 16, 2004

Jose Valasquez posted:

leetcode.com is the best in my opinion in terms of being similar to real interview questions I've gotten.

hackerrank.com is pretty good for reviewing specific types of questions (graph, dp, etc.)

Codewars.com is pretty decent too, but it's just a bit more random what you get instead of "I want to do X type of problem".

A couple of test cases are always included and you get to see other answers after you complete it.

Doghouse
Oct 22, 2004

I was playing Harvest Moon 64 with this kid who lived on my street and my cows were not doing well and I got so raged up and frustrated that my eyes welled up with tears and my friend was like are you crying dude. Are you crying because of the cows. I didn't understand the feeding mechanic.
I make $75k with 3 years experience in St. Louis, which is average-ish I think. If I am asked how much I am looking to make during an interview, and I say 90, is that reaching too high? Too low?

It seems like the market here is going bonkers (I turned on the "let recruiters know you're looking" feature in LinkedIn on, and I got like 8 messages in 2 days) but I don't really have a firm grasp on market salary figures.

fritz
Jul 26, 2003

VOTE YES ON 69 posted:

like "HAHA it's actually leftTrim not trimLeft!" or what?

No, more along the lines of "do you remember how to get a substring", and if they don't I tell them to just make up something close.

Pollyanna posted:

:confused: I always expect interview questions to bar me from using core library functions like String manipulation and what not, and that they'd make me do it old-style to prove I know how to index into an array and make a linked list or whatever. Sometimes it's hard to tell which interview questions are testing your domain knowledge and which ones are just CtCI cargo culting.

What I like to do when I'm interviewing a candidate is grill them about stuff they have on their resume and ask them to explain things to me, and then for the coding portion I like giving easy questions. That's because I figure that if someone can't solve an easy question they wouldn't be able to solve a hard one anyway, but if they do manage to solve the easy question and don't do so in a horrible manner they're probably ok.

Iverron
May 13, 2012

Jose Valasquez posted:

In terms of interview prep I agree, but they advertise themselves as more of a competition than focusing on interview prep, so I kinda get it

I've definitely seen it popping up in a lot of application / interview scenarios lately.

geeves
Sep 16, 2004

Doghouse posted:

I make $75k with 3 years experience in St. Louis, which is average-ish I think. If I am asked how much I am looking to make during an interview, and I say 90, is that reaching too high? Too low?

It seems like the market here is going bonkers (I turned on the "let recruiters know you're looking" feature in LinkedIn on, and I got like 8 messages in 2 days) but I don't really have a firm grasp on market salary figures.

75k w/ 3 years is pretty good in a smaller-market city. (not NYC, Bay, LA, DC, Boston)

Depends on how good you are at negotiating. A close friend of mine preached this to me: "You can command more money than you think you're worth if you just confidently ask."

"What is your current salary or what are you looking to make?" I would never answer this during an interview or let them know my current salary. Always, always let them make the first offer. Never discuss salary in any way from recruiter to phone screen until they say they are making an offer. If you have to fill out a form, put $1 in the field.

~10 years ago, with 5 years of experience I was offered 70k and I countered with 85k. We agreed on 77k + an extra week PTO. My "number" going in was 70k - I was making 55k. but since 70 was their opening I went much higher. I had nothing to lose making a play for 15k more than offered. The worst thing they would say was "no".

The only person I would ever talk salary with is my 3rd party recruiter. I tell her I want X amount. She does the initial filtering on my behalf.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.

Good Will Hrunting posted:


Another problem though is that a lot of the things my manager wants to accomplish strike me as ridiculously over-engineered. He seems to want to engineer our own version of Kafka to use with Spark Streaming because Google Cloud doesn't have a managed Kafka service. I'm still struggling to understand why we need to do this as opposed to using another managed service they offer which could solve our problem (which they can - I researched this myself during downtime) and his answer to my proposition was "It's not Kafka and that's why we aren't using it".


Demoing "V1" of the platform for the CTO and CEO - CTO asked why we weren't using PubSub and were basically reinventing Kafka and my boss's sphincter got so tight as he had to mention that I suggested that earlier as I just sat there laughing.

E: Looks like we're using it lol

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

Good Will Hrunting posted:

Demoing "V1" of the platform for the CTO and CEO - CTO asked why we weren't using PubSub and were basically reinventing Kafka and my boss's sphincter got so tight as he had to mention that I suggested that earlier as I just sat there laughing.

E: Looks like we're using it lol

:+1: for your CTO.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll
Nap Ghost
I have my doubts that people that couldn't be bothered to properly learn how to use a technology and wound up reinventing a a wheel as a pet rock would all of a sudden competently use what they should have been using in the first place. For example, I've seen people running Postgres struggling to beat 100 requests / second on $250k+ of bare metal, and I highly, highly doubt that switching to MongoDB like they wanted to would make it go away (hint: 0 caching objects used, over 100 SQL queries run per page hit, maybe 20% of which hit indexes, and autovacuum settings were such that nothing ever optimized - this is your bread and butter client as a consultant :smithicide:).

Flaming June
Oct 21, 2004

If you have been laid off, how would you indicate that to companies you are interviewing with? On Thursday my ex-boss had a wonderful epiphany and decided to lay off the entire staff... of the entire company. Rather suddenly, too.

I am in the middle of interviewing now and I'm not sure how to spin my changed status in a way that doesn't reduce my attractiveness as a candidate. Unless it doesn't have much of an impact, but to me my gut feeling says it would anyway.

TacoHavoc
Dec 31, 2007
It's taco-y and havoc-y...at the same time!
The fact that everyone got laid off is actually better for you. I would say pretty much what you said here. "The company closed down, about xx people were all laid off at the same time"

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


Getting laid off is not a big deal. Just say you got laid off. People only care if you're unemployed because you're a shitheel and got fired for being dumb or bad, or are somehow otherwise unemployable in a way they haven't yet discovered. Massive layoffs = the absolute best reason to be unemployed.

Doctor w-rw-rw-
Jun 24, 2008

Flaming June posted:

If you have been laid off, how would you indicate that to companies you are interviewing with? On Thursday my ex-boss had a wonderful epiphany and decided to lay off the entire staff... of the entire company. Rather suddenly, too.

I am in the middle of interviewing now and I'm not sure how to spin my changed status in a way that doesn't reduce my attractiveness as a candidate. Unless it doesn't have much of an impact, but to me my gut feeling says it would anyway.
Maybe, if you can secure a decent reference from him:

"My boss decided rather suddenly to wind down the company. It's an unfortunate situation, but he and my former colleagues can provide a reference on request."

If he refuses:

"My boss decided without warning to shut down the company, and laid off the entire staff of the company on Tuesday. My former colleagues can provide a reference on request."

If it wasn't your fuckup then it's really just limited to the leverage they have from you not being employed. The less you need it or the better alternatives you have, the less usable that leverage.

But maybe I'm emphasizing it too much even?

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll
Nap Ghost
There's nothing embarrassing about being laid off unless you're in a really high prestige kind of position or something (which shows your lack of foresight / political awareness somewhat to have lost at corporate Game of Thrones).

For a good candidate, being laid off in some respects can put pressure on the company because it means that the candidate is actively pursuing different places and if they're any decent they'll start getting multiple offers shortly.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:

But maybe I'm emphasizing it too much even?
Yeah, I think so. Startup failure is so built into the system that nobody batted an eye last time I was looking after being laid off. You can spin it as a joke, "Current salary? Zero lol. I'm looking for interesting work, not just a paycheck."

It'll probably come up with someone on the hiring side, "why are you looking for a new job?" kind of question. Don't open an interview by badmouthing your previous employer no matter how heinous or incompetent, but there's no reason to be cagey or duplicitous about getting laid off. That's the businesses fault, explicitly not yours.

Flaming June
Oct 21, 2004

Haha, OK. It looks like it is less of a deal than I thought. I haven't been in this position before and wasn't sure what to think.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.

prisoner of waffles posted:

:+1: for your CTO.

Bossman dweeb is being stubborn and it now looks like we aren't switching, lol. He's a huge problem stunting my team's growth and progress, not to mention my personal growth. At least it felt good to know I was totally on the right track with a good tech decision, especially since parts of the rest of the company are thinking about adopting it.

necrobobsledder posted:

I have my doubts that people that couldn't be bothered to properly learn how to use a technology and wound up reinventing a a wheel as a pet rock would all of a sudden competently use what they should have been using in the first place. For example, I've seen people running Postgres struggling to beat 100 requests / second on $250k+ of bare metal, and I highly, highly doubt that switching to MongoDB like they wanted to would make it go away (hint: 0 caching objects used, over 100 SQL queries run per page hit, maybe 20% of which hit indexes, and autovacuum settings were such that nothing ever optimized - this is your bread and butter client as a consultant :smithicide:).

It had 0 to do with people learning, we have 3 Kafka evangelists on our team, and everything to do with him being a complete loon.

In other news: the only good manager on the team is now working from our remote office for 2+ months, so they're organized and doing a lot (better) and I'm on my own island as they're 7 hours ahead. They're making a ton of progress just doing their own thing while I have to pull teeth to get assigned stuff from my """boss"", write some code on my own, get stuck on requirements, ask him, find out there's a JIRA with details about things that he should have mentioned many work-hours ago (has happened multiple times now - and not just business requirements - benchmarks that had been done for tech I'm evaluating!!!!!) and get frustrated as heck. I think the other managers see the problem, they have brought it up, there just seems to be no way to circumvent the tyranny of King poo poo.

sink
Sep 10, 2005

gerby gerb gerb in my mouf
I'm lagging in this thread, but I remember a few pages back folks were talking about embedded systems. Embedded and machine level stuff isn't my cup of tea, but a formal verification position showed up on a Haskell mailing list, along with some other really cool operating systems positions at this company. Thought I would mention it here as an example of what's possible in the field: http://kernkonzept.com/jobs.html

Rudest Buddhist
May 26, 2005

You only lose what you cling to, bitch.
Fun Shoe
Hell yes, thanks for posting this. This gives me a better idea of where I should aim myself to get further into embedded software.

Iverron
May 13, 2012

On that note: if I'm interested in moving my career towards FP and away from OO, is there less of a stigma around years of professional experience in a given Functional language considering that the majority of shops aren't using FP and most devs therefore can't necessarily use FP in their day to day work?

"My day to day is primarily centered around X and Y, but I have tinkered / freelanced / whatever in Z available <here>, <here> and <github>." doesn't get me very far in my previous experiences.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.
There's a huge FP presence in data science with Scala on Spark.

sink
Sep 10, 2005

gerby gerb gerb in my mouf
Most folks in the corporate functional world recognize that it's rare to see 8 years of OCaml/Haskell/ML experience, so they're happy if you've got an open mind, tolerance for screaming arguments with a compiler and maybe read a couple of chapters of SICP or Learn You a Haskell.

In addition to Spark / Scala, that's the way Java is going anyway slowly. Java8 added Optional with flatMap, lambdas, etc. I've even seen people writing code that goes into services built with that horrible Dropwizard framework which uses Eithers instead of exceptions for error conditions.

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know

Iverron posted:

On that note: if I'm interested in moving my career towards FP and away from OO, is there less of a stigma around years of professional experience in a given Functional language considering that the majority of shops aren't using FP and most devs therefore can't necessarily use FP in their day to day work?

I think a lot of HR departments and recruiters have trouble with this. We were trying to hire devs and I'd tell the recruiters "we want someone with a bunch of general server experience who thinks functional programming sounds fun" and they'd be like "here's someone who knows Java and wants to learn C#".

I'd expect most dev teams to feel like I did, though. I like FP because I think it's easier to write good code. It takes some different thinking so you want someone who at least remembers doing CS 101 in Scheme so they know that they like it. Other than that, most of what makes a good developer is the same.

leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Mniot posted:

I think a lot of HR departments and recruiters have trouble with this. We were trying to hire devs and I'd tell the recruiters "we want someone with a bunch of general server experience who thinks functional programming sounds fun" and they'd be like "here's someone who knows Java and wants to learn C#".

I'd expect most dev teams to feel like I did, though. I like FP because I think it's easier to write good code. It takes some different thinking so you want someone who at least remembers doing CS 101 in Scheme so they know that they like it. Other than that, most of what makes a good developer is the same.

FP is great, but the last time I was trying to get a job in it firms were pretty strongly against people who only had hobby experience in their language for some reason.

Doghouse
Oct 22, 2004

I was playing Harvest Moon 64 with this kid who lived on my street and my cows were not doing well and I got so raged up and frustrated that my eyes welled up with tears and my friend was like are you crying dude. Are you crying because of the cows. I didn't understand the feeding mechanic.
Bleh. Just got benefits info from a company I applied to and was very interested in. 10 days pto total, doesn't go up much. That's less than half of what I have now and it's just not enough for someone with a family.

Companies really never let you negotiate this either, in my experience. So disappointing.

If I get a good salary, is there any way to negotiate a way to be able to take unpaid days?

Amish Ninja
Jul 2, 2006

It's called survival of the fittest. If you can't slam with the best, jam with the rest.
10 days PTO?! Brutal. I thought it was pretty standard for companies to offer something like 15-18 bare minimum. If it were a remote job, 10 days PTO wouldn't seem quite as bad but if you're locked into a specific location that would get old pretty fast unless you were a shut-in who doesn't travel and has no family.

Ask directly about unpaid days, probably. I'm sure that differs between companies too.

Amish Ninja fucked around with this message at 21:49 on May 17, 2017

good jovi
Dec 11, 2000

'm pro-dickgirl, and I VOTE!

Plenty of places will negotiate on PTO. They should, too, it's an easy perk that doesn't reflect negatively on anyone's balance sheet.

10 days would be a deal breaker. That's pathetic.

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

good jovi posted:

Plenty of places will negotiate on PTO. They should, too, it's an easy perk that doesn't reflect negatively on anyone's balance sheet.

10 days would be a deal breaker. That's pathetic.

Actually from what I understand, unused PTO counts as a debt on the company's balance sheet. Though I'm pretty sure when it comes to things like "a particular department's hiring budget," it's not generally factored in.

But yes, 10 days is laughable. That's the first thing I'd point to in negotiation, and I would use language like "shockingly low." I wonder if they expect people to negotiate PTO and are just preemptively anchoring so that you settle on 15 or something (which is still extremely low for this industry if you aren't completely desperate).

Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 22:42 on May 17, 2017

ROFLburger
Jan 12, 2006
Jesus christ, 10 days? I know a couple of people that have negotiated PTO before without much hassle. Surely this won't be the first time this company has been approached about negotiating that.

asur
Dec 28, 2012
Everyone says you can negotiate PTO, but I've never been able. Admittedly my sample size is a grand total of four companies, but all of them were very specific that it wasn't on the table and was entirely dependent on tenure at the company.

AskYourself
May 23, 2005
Donut is for Homer as Asking yourself is to ...
While we're sharing our anecdotal evidence, I've negotiated PTO at my current position with success. It doesn't hurt to try.

Iverron
May 13, 2012

asur posted:

Everyone says you can negotiate PTO, but I've never been able. Admittedly my sample size is a grand total of four companies, but all of them were very specific that it wasn't on the table and was entirely dependent on tenure at the company.

The only success I've ever seen with regard to negotiating PTO was basically having prior industry experience applied as "tenure" for the sake of PTO calculation.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Why are companies so reluctant to give out PTO?

Ghost of Reagan Past
Oct 7, 2003

rock and roll fun

Pollyanna posted:

Why are companies so reluctant to give out PTO?
Because they want you to work as much as possible

Never mind that people are way more productive when they're not rationing out their PTO for special trips or holidays.

Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 02:50 on May 18, 2017

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009
It probably depends on the companies/country/culture. In USA and Canada they'd love to squish the last drop of blood out of you before they throw you out on the street like a used TV. In high-demand fields (such as software engineers) they're a bit better, but not by much. Europe has it much better by comparison, as a lot of the legwork for worker's rights was done quite some time ago. Companies also have realized that having happy, rested and not overly-stressed employees is good for business. But they do make a shitton of more money in the US. And less taxes So ... YMMV.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

Pollyanna posted:

Why are companies so reluctant to give out PTO?

Idleness is a sin. You don't want your employees to go to hell, do you?

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED
Even in the U.S., which has on average significantly less vacation than in the EU, 10 days is hot garbage for this industry. It's low enough to be downright insulting, and if I see that before I go into the interview, I would decline and I'd tell them that's why - that the vacation package is so bad that it raises serious concerns about work/life balance at the company. If they brought it up during the offer stage, I would have a hard time not laughing. Even as a first job I would have to be pretty desperate to settle for that.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll
Nap Ghost
10 - 12 days is pretty common for a lot of lower tier tech employers that have bad margins with less staff for redundancy of duties and have a cultural emphasis on working harder, not smarter, especially if it's a professional services / consulting firm. When you're struggling to bring in cashflow the company will start pulling accounting tricks to keep things afloat. Start-ups got rid of accrued PTO and rebranded them as "unlimited" vacation days partly for this reason.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



I've negotiated for more PTO but it was in lieu of more money and as part of a raise :shrug:

Pollyanna posted:

Why are companies so reluctant to give out PTO?

Because, unlike salary, it's a very visible form of compensation that people aren't conditioned against talking about, so anyone who's not totally checked out might notice someone else's superior comp and start asking for the same.

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Doghouse
Oct 22, 2004

I was playing Harvest Moon 64 with this kid who lived on my street and my cows were not doing well and I got so raged up and frustrated that my eyes welled up with tears and my friend was like are you crying dude. Are you crying because of the cows. I didn't understand the feeding mechanic.
It's a new-ish, small company. They do custom software development and have contacts with some really big companies, and seem to be doing very well. The rest of their benefits are actually ok to good; they even have this thing where they let you work on whatever you want (your own software projects, etc) for 4 hours a week.

I'm just trying to decide if it's even worth just going through the interview process or if I should just walk away now.

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