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orcbuster posted:Yeah and I think even that is too much freedom to optimize and game the system. I don't know, I think pick one from six at each of three levels is reasonable enough and an enormous improvement over the pre-Angolan procurement which was an absolute clusterfuck. I like it being just three total options pick one for smaller scale things like the mid-theater one we had, but I think we should get a chance to get at least somewhat silly occasionally. It's just that "no, five F-16s is too many, here's why we should buy four" sucked butt. xthetenth posted:Hey out of curiosity, DB nerds, are there any decent/viable F-104 variants? Not necessarily for our use, I'm thinking an eccentric billionaire wanted a plane, paid for the production line, and then the opportunity was seized on by a record label trying to push an indie label by creating the Seattle Starfighters. I finally got a chance to check and, aside from the one that already got called out, no. Nothing but dumb bombs (HE and cluster), Sidewinders, Bullpups (lol), dumb rockets, and the odd nuke mount we'd never get or want to use. Only exceptions for the Japanese ones (AAM-1s) and a few that can mount Sparrows.
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May 22, 2017 22:53
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Personally I wouldn't mind either the "blue plate" option (three full packages, pick one) or the "Indian lunch" option (five or six mini packages, pick two/three). It's just the "buffet" option (here's all the packages on the table, go nuts!) that I want to avoid a repeat of.
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May 22, 2017 23:00
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orcbuster posted:Yeah and I think even that is too much freedom to optimize and game the system. I'd have to disagree with you pretty strongly there. I may have been the only one because I'm a massive gear sperg but I did like taking a look at all the various proposals that got thrown together. I'd much rather some options to optimise what we buy. That isn't even "gaming the system", that's just sensible.
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May 22, 2017 23:02
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Quinntan posted:I'd have to disagree with you pretty strongly there. I may have been the only one because I'm a massive gear sperg but I did like taking a look at all the various proposals that got thrown together. I'd much rather some options to optimise what we buy. That isn't even "gaming the system", that's just sensible. I like there being significant downsides to any option. Makes it a more interesting choice.
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May 22, 2017 23:05
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Here's what I think would be cool: 1. Based on the suggestions provided Yooper creates packages of planes. Some might be just a single aircraft, some might be a squadron of all the same, some might be upgrades that we want (such as converting the German Tornados to a Saudi configuration or converting both to a GB configuration), and some might be a mish-mash of fighters at a discount. This will form the pool of available airframes. Also include options for selling planes we may not want. 2. Posters create procurement strategies based on the available packages. 3. We vote via instant-runoff just like before.
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May 22, 2017 23:18
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Suggestions here (mostly Soviet/Russian stuff): Fighter: MiG-31BM Foxhound Gets loadouts with 4 R-37Ms and 4 R-77s (and can carry those loadouts 480 miles). R-37s are perfect for taking out poo poo like enemy jammers and tankers. Another option is the MiG-29K Fulcrum D, which is shorter-legged and doesn't have R-37s, but has infinitely more ground attack potential. Including anti-ship missiles, or up to 16 250 kilo bombs (short range though). Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to buying a fuckload of these to cover both our strike and A2A options. Strike Aircraft: Su-24M2 Fencer D Already been talked about, has great ground attack options, plus is decently fast and has a pair of R-73s, so it won't been completely helpless. OECM: Tu-22PD Blinder E Almost certainly not as good of a jammer as our EA-6, but it's fast and almost certainly can be had for cheap. Plus a lot of character. Comedy option: Beriev A-60 / Sokol Eshelon Don't see it on Baloogan site but I'm assuming it got put in the Chains of War update. Pretty self explanatory.
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May 22, 2017 23:21
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i myself would like to make a few suggetions from the Ivanov/HAL side of the aisle: Multirole: The Mig-29: Carrier Edition: It Slices! It Dices! It shoots 6 AMRAAMskis, 4 HARMskis (Faster than those filthy western ALARMs or HARMs), or 4 Harpoonskis (at 130 nm!And can go into buildings!) at any ships or radars you like! It even has Inflight Refueling! And TV Guided Bombskis! And only cost the Indians 34 million apiece to buy new, so wouldn't even cost us too bad to get up to 8 of them! The Flanker: Indian Edition: The Indians might've recovered enough from being kicked about by Dragons to build us a few of these new! Same capabilities as the MIG, except longer legs, has an Alamo loadout in addition to the Adders, has more Archers all over the place, but drops the AS-20 in exchange for one sweet ol Brahmos for when you need to shove a Mach 2.2 sea-skimmer into something. The Bison: STAMPADE Just fly your opponents into the ground with these babies! 2 Adders! 2 Archers! Or just fit 4 Archers! It can even drop a couple TV bombs if you want! Attack: The Fencer: Bomb Truck!: this guy can haul whatever category of Russian A2G ordnance you like! Kryptons! 2 different Maverick clones! 2 different standoff missiles of 35 and 60 NM range! 1500kg Penetrator Bombs with your choice of LGB or TV guidance when that Bunker Must Die! Cluster Bombs! Incendiaries! Whatever you need to kill on the ground, this guy can handle! And it can even be REFUELED IN FLIGHT! The Fullback: Shiny And Chrome: This is what you want for the absolutely shiniest of Russian Ordnance. 4 Harpoonskis for ships, various Mavericks/standoff missiles/GPS Bombs for land, and an intersting thing called the AS-22 that is essentially a Standoff Anti-tank Cluster Bomb with 20 NM range and a multitude of guidance options. The Flogger: We COULD get some Indian Floggers out of their boneyard and get a full Russian munitions fit for them... Support: The Fencer: Special Edition: You guys say you want some more OECM support that isn't as slow as a snail? Say hello to this special fit Fencer, it can go SUPERSONIC! The May: Spotter: And if you need help finding a target to send all those lovely Harpoonskis you're buying from us at, you can get one of these! it can even hunt subs if you like. The Helicopter Oh, HAL would possibly like you guys to buy these things if you need a helicopter for something? Please? Nick Esasky fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 23:39
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Attack Helicopters can pump out alot of tankdeath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMPu2k0b3j8 And can operate from unprepared frontline FARPs / Support Plts
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May 22, 2017 23:43
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From Russia with Love Fighter Role: Mikoyan_MiG-31 Attack Role: Su-25TM Bomber Role: Tupolev Tu-95 or Tupolev Tu-22M Transport Role: Ilyushin Il-76
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May 22, 2017 23:50
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orcbuster posted:I like there being significant downsides to any option. Makes it a more interesting choice. The downsides could be more to do with opportunity costs. "You can have this, but you'd be missing out on that." I'd much rather that over "You can have this, but you're also getting this mountain of shitplanes." It feels like we're wasting less money that way and it's not like we've got a huge amount to play with at the moment. Baloogan posted:Attack Helicopters can pump out alot of tankdeath They're also murdered by AAA. Quinntan fucked around with this message at 00:01 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 23:57
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orcbuster posted:Yeah I don't see anyone stop following due to dying I'd vote for 'death is death', keeps it simpler. A good LP death is a thing to savour.
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May 23, 2017 00:03
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Quinntan posted:The downsides could be more to do with opportunity costs. "You can have this, but you'd be missing out on that." I'd much rather that over "You can have this, but you're also getting this mountain of shitplanes." It feels like we're wasting less money that way and it's not like we've got a huge amount to play with at the moment. Wasting money is what makes it fun. Not getting everything isn't a good downside.
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May 23, 2017 00:05
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Loel posted:Didnt they save our base when Rohan fought an entire squadron by herself? No, that was the Pantsirs and Hawks. I don't think the ZSUs have fired a round during our time in Angola, and even then if they were firing, then we're hosed either way.
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May 23, 2017 00:05
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Quinntan posted:The downsides could be more to do with opportunity costs. "You can have this, but you'd be missing out on that." I'd much rather that over "You can have this, but you're also getting this mountain of shitplanes." It feels like we're wasting less money that way and it's not like we've got a huge amount to play with at the moment. they'd take some micro, buy they should outrange the stuff we aren't hitting with SEAD anyways. That does require pretty good intel though to avoid ambushes. Though if we use our hypothetical helos as short distance CAS any enemy vehicle interdiction I think we'd be ok. Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 00:09 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 00:06
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I like f-18s and f16s, it might be nice to by American for a change Also dead pilots should go to the bottom of the queue and change their callsign
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May 23, 2017 00:07
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Quinntan posted:No, that was the Pantsirs and Hawks. I don't think the ZSUs have fired a round during our time in Angola, and even then if they were firing, then we're hosed either way. They'd be usefull as point defense for a specific field unit but not much else.
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May 23, 2017 00:08
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It's going to be packages for this round. Each supplier will offer 3 options. Fighter Focus, CAS Focus, Support Focus. You guys pick one. Here's the L&E. SIDE: Angola =========================================================== LOSSES: ------------------------------- 6x 130mm/52 M-46 M1954 Towed Howitzer 12x 14.5mm/79 ZPU-4 Quad 4x 23mm ZSU-23-4 Shilka 42x 57mm S60 1x BM-21 Grad MLRS 3x BMP-1 [AT-3 Sagger B] IFV 1x Building (Large) 2x Bunker (Sector Control Station) 1x EC.145 T2 [H145] 2x F-16A Falcon 6x MiG-21bis Fishbed L 2x MiG-23-98-2 Flogger G 1x Radar (Tin Shield A [5N59]) 4x SA-11 Gadfly [9A38/9M317] TELAR 2x SA-11 Gadfly [9A39/9M317] LLV 4x SA-6a Gainful [2P25] TEL 2x SA-8b Gecko Mod-0 [9A33BM2] TELAR 1x Structure (Forward Operating Base) 2x Su-27S Flanker B 6x Su-30MK Flanker G 12x T-54 Main Battle Tank 4x T-62 Main Battle Tank 8x T-72 Main Battle Tank 6x Vehicle (Flap Wheel [RPK-1M1 Vaza]) 1x Vehicle (Straight Flush [1S91]) 1x Y-9G Cub [High New 11] EXPENDITURES: ------------------ 29x 14.5mm/79 ZPU-4 Quad Burst [120 rnds] 8x 23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds] 61x 57mm S60 HE 7x AA-10 Alamo C [R-27RE1, LR SARH] 1x AA-2c Advanced Atoll [R-13M] 12x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges] 3x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges] 28x SA-11 Gadfly [9M38M1] 9x SA-14 Gremlin [9M36] 8x SA-19 Grisom [9M311] 6x SA-2f Guideline Mod 1 [S-75M2 Volkhov, 5YA23 / V-759] 3x SA-6a Gainful [3M9] 12x SA-8b Gecko Mod-0 [9M33M2] SIDE: Free State =========================================================== LOSSES: ------------------------------- 2x Kfir C.10 EXPENDITURES: ------------------ 6x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges] 9x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral] 24x Mk82 500lb LDGP 14x SA-2f Guideline Mod 1 [S-75M2 Volkhov, 5YA23 / V-759] SIDE: Von Hoff =========================================================== LOSSES: ------------------------------- EXPENDITURES: ------------------ SIDE: Hired Goons =========================================================== LOSSES: ------------------------------- 1x Hawk 209 2x SK 60B EXPENDITURES: ------------------ 4x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds] 3x 30mm ADEN Mk4 Burst [30 rnds] 2x 30mm ADEN Mk4 x 2 Burst [60 rnds] 2x AGM-65G Maverick IR 32x AT-16 Scallion [9K121 Vikhr] 2x GBU-10E/B Paveway II LGB [Mk84] 4x GBU-16B/B Paveway II LGB [Mk83] 96x GBU-39/B SDB 6x M/49 145mm PSRAK Rocket 28x RB 107 Meteor 8x SPICE 1000 GPS/EO [Mk83] 4x Taurus KEPD 350P SIDE: Shinsegae-Mitsubishi =========================================================== LOSSES: ------------------------------- EXPENDITURES: ------------------ 1x AAM-4B Kai [Type 99] 6x AIM-120B AMRAAM 22x SAM-1C Tan-SAM Kai [Type 81]
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May 23, 2017 00:09
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orcbuster posted:Wasting money is what makes it fun. Not getting everything isn't a good downside. I'm just going to say I agree 100% with Quinntan here, but I'm also hoping that by my asking for almost nothing but cheap crap we'll at least get some entertaining options at the lower end instead of the Hawks and A-11s which, well, weren't very interesting. I don't care how bad a plane we own is so long as it's at least fun to plan with, which excludes those and the SK 60Bs. Buy fun. Buy Iranian. thatbastardken posted:Also dead pilots should go to the bottom of the queue and change their callsign They already go to the bottom, iirc, though I don't know if they get preempted by new sign-ups. I don't know if anyone's requested a callsign change yet except for whoever Nails is/was (circlemaster or something like that?) who was assuming he was actually dead.
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May 23, 2017 00:10
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SELL: All SK-60s Frogfoot BUY: AS MANY F-35s AS POSSIBLE I DON'T CARE WHAT IT TAKES
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May 23, 2017 00:16
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CirclMastr posted:SELL: Lockheed Martin parachute account detected.
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May 23, 2017 00:21
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Dandywalken posted:Lockheed Martin parachute account detected. This is an alternate near-future scenario. I want an F-35 because reality won't provide one.
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May 23, 2017 00:24
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Dandywalken posted:Lockheed Martin parachute account detected. impossible, a lockmart parachute account would strangle and autoban the poster
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May 23, 2017 00:25
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Loel posted:Six or seven packages that we can only buy three of could be fun. Having to decide between getting two packages with a lot of stuff we really want, or three with only some stuff we really want would be pretty entertaining.
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May 23, 2017 00:27
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CirclMastr posted:SELL: Only if we also implement weather.
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May 23, 2017 00:43
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Any chance we can throw F-35s into the wishlist? We don't have any stealth fighters, and I doubt we can afford export model f-22s.
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May 23, 2017 00:45
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Any chance we can throw F-35s into the wishlist? We don't have any stealth fighters, and I doubt we can afford export model f-22s. Lets not buy anymore overpowered fighters, by this point in 2023 they'll have actually ironed out the kinks and made the F-35 worthwhile.
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May 23, 2017 00:50
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The opportunity cost of getting some 5th gen fighters is really really high, considering what else all we need.
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May 23, 2017 00:51
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orcbuster posted:They'd be usefull as point defense for a specific field unit but not much else. Isn't that, like, explicitly the point of AAA? In multiple instances we've had our SEAD missiles taken out by the backup AAA units, which I think were ZSUS just like ours.
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May 23, 2017 01:12
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Velius posted:Isn't that, like, explicitly the point of AAA? In multiple instances we've had our SEAD missiles taken out by the backup AAA units, which I think were ZSUS just like ours. No those were tunguskas. But yes. that is the explicit purpose of SPAAGs. Which is odd because our enemies havent been using them for that purpose.
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May 23, 2017 01:15
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Anyway I really think we should focus on strike craft and/or support over more Gen 4.9-5 fighters. Our Gripens are already really good 4.9s, just lacking the front aspect stealth but having a better AA missile. If we load up on even more bleeding edge stuff it's just going to encourage risk aversion that won't be fun for anyone.
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May 23, 2017 01:16
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I almost posted a suggestion the other day to retire the SK60s as a display squadron, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking it. I like the idea of procurement providing not only the stuff we're salivating for but also introducing more obscure and interesting compromises.
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May 23, 2017 01:39
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Sell 3 - Saab SK60B 1 - SU-25 Frogfoot Buy WELCOME TO THE EUROZONE Fighters Mirage2000C Gen 4.9 dedicated Fighter. Lots of defensive chaff and flares, and carries 2 30NM missiles and 2 10NM missiles. Attackers Mirage 5BA Gen 3.5 Attacker. Restricted to Day Operations. Can carry up to 12 500lb unguided bombs. A-7E Corsair II [FLIR] Gen 3 Attacker. Bomb truck in the hardest sense of the word. Capable of carrying a variety of munitions in bulk, from cluster bombs to 18 unguided 500lbs to mavericks to dedicated anti-runway bombs. Carrier capable for those of us with big dreams. AJ 37 Viggen Gen 3 Attacker. Can carry up to 16 120KG guided bombs. Can fit AIM-120Ds in the event of critical CAP shortages. Not a lot here, I know, but I tried to stick to euro aircraft that we might be able to get at reasonable prices from our European dealers.
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May 23, 2017 01:40
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 We have a two days discussion period prior to voting. Don't vote yet. You can haggle, harangue, fight, and riot. But don't vote. I'm not going to count it until then. The previous Procurement Round was free form and lost focus after a few days. This time I've reined it in tighter. We have options. Lots of options. You need to pick one supplier and one option. So K&P Support, or Ivanov CAS. Yes, I know people like Baloogans Wiki better, but it's kind of slow with a hundred goons all pinging it for obscure loadouts. So when I couldn't get to it I'm using CMANO DB.  pre:BFLM Fighter Focus 5 F-18C http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/4640/ 6 Super Tukes https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=4354 5 MQ-1C http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2579/ BFLM CAS Focus 4 F-16D 52 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3834/ 6 A-10C https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=3889 5 MQ-1C http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2579/ BFLM Support Focus 2 P-3C https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=3335 2 HC-130H http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2049/ 2 MQ-1C http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2579/ 10 Super Tukes https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=4354  pre:Ivanov Fighter 5 SU-35 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/4232/ 9 SU-25T https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=2513 1 AN-12BK https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=2293 Ivanov CAS 8 SU-24 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/600/ 6 Mig-29 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/920/ 1 SU-24 Fencer Ewar http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/467/ Ivanov Support 6 MI-35 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2946/ 1 SU-24 Fencer Ewar http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/467/ 2 AN-12BK https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=2293 1 Buyan Frigate http://cmano-db.com/ship/2411/ 8 Mig-21 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2140/  pre:K&P Fighter Gripen NG Upgrade http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3201/ 4 F-4E Terminator http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/4241/ 1 BR.1150 https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=4249 K&P CAS 6 Tornado IDS http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3893/ 4 F-16 Greek http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3516/ 1 BR.1150 https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/DataAircraft?ID=4249 K&P Support 4 EC.665 http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/359/ 1 Tornado ECR http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3327/ 1 E-2C http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2114/ 2 Tornado IDS http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3893/ The K&P Fighter Option converts all of our current Gripens into Gripen NG's. 48 hours to debate and discuss! Fixed SU-34 to an SU-35. Yooper fucked around with this message at 02:54 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 01:50
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NVM, US support option.
orcbuster fucked around with this message at 01:56 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 01:53
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BOTE!!!!! THERE'S A BOTE!!!!
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May 23, 2017 01:53
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I vote we save the $400 million and buy F-35s next procurement round.
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May 23, 2017 01:54
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REMEMBER PEOPLE WE ONLY GET ONE OPTION SO IF YOU LIKE THE BOATES VOTE SPECIFICALLY FOR IVANOV SUPPORT AND NOT JUST IVANOV JUST 1 OF 9 IS WHAT WE GET
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May 23, 2017 01:55
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To Clarify : You will pick ONE option out of the 9 available.
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May 23, 2017 01:55
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How does the various "buy one of this plane" entries interact with "we're selling anything we only have one of"? I assume they don't show up and then immediately go back home to the dealer 
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May 23, 2017 01:55
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Both the Ivanov fighter and attack options would represent a huge upgrade to our A2G capability, but I'm leaning toward the Attack option since the Fencers have longer legs. Fakeedit: ugh, the Su-34s don't carry R-77s, only R-27s. Definitely go with the attack option.
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May 23, 2017 01:56
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