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Seaguard with shields actually seem to have *slightly* higher stats than spearmen, by something like one point of defence after all of Tyrion's upgrades. But they have a reduced model count vs spearmen, and reduced range vs actual archers. You stick three to four units of sea guard in front, six to eight archers behind them, some swordmasters on the sides (maybe Phoenix Guard if you're fighting lots of Hydras and Dragons, but in general Swordmasters are better), at least one bolt thrower with the razor standard to massively boost the damage from multi-shot, and keep a few slots for cav / dragons. Congrats, you've won the game. Go take Naggarond on turn 20! It'd be even easier if Gate Guard weren't a garrison only unit. Full longbows plus spears and the stats to use both? Time to introduce per-race stack size limits! The actual high elf weaknesses seem to be that their heroes aren't as good as other races and really need their legendary / crafted magic items to shine, whilst being forced to engage on enemy terms (into longer ranged arty, over walls, etc) is *slightly* harder because of low model counts, tight formations, and that hp related modifier which is easily lost on an assault. Cost isn't an issue because your economy is gangbusters due to stacking trade bonuses. Even for his ridiculous statline with infinity attack and defence skills, Tyrion is much, much squishier than a saurus, and hero chariot mounts kind of just suck without micro. Dragons also seem to be softer than Carnosaurs, but flying movement makes up for that. The Elf item game is crazy stuff. I maxed out magic find on Mazdamundi and never got even a fraction of the rare equipment or bound spells my High Elf game has had in a quarter of the time, even without Rites. I've got spells and skills that basically double the damage of my army for short periods whilst raining down a dozen free crowd clearers, extending archer ranges, and turning my heroes invisible until they're already charging. Half of these effects I didn't even know existed from playing other races! The worst thing about this game is the lack of information. Half of the advantages of the different types of infantry come down to stuff like "has a ward save" (otherwise Phoenix Guard would be outright worse than Swordmasters in all cases) which isn't mentioned on the stat cards more often than not. The right click help interface doesn't give you as much information as the in-game interface and is slow as hell too. You can't even click on the traits in that thing to figure out what they do!
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Oct 15, 2017 15:06
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You might know this, but mouse over all the icons at the bottom and it explains most of their special abilities.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:08
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Nullkigan posted:at least one bolt thrower with the razor standard to massively boost the damage from multi-shot Hold up, Razor Standard buffs missile damage too? That can't be right, because otherwise I'm missing out on a way to turn Queek's starting Warpfire Thrower into a complete monster of an infantry-killer.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:12
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On the in-game interface, sure. In the help browser it doesn't. Which means that you actually have to hire the unit to figure out what the icons mean, as you can't select the unit to hover over the icon until then.toasterwarrior posted:Hold up, Razor Standard buffs missile damage too? That can't be right, because otherwise I'm missing out on a way to turn Queek's starting Warpfire Thrower into a complete monster of an infantry-killer. Well according to the interface you're right, melee damage only. Nullkigan fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Oct 15, 2017 |
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Oct 15, 2017 15:12
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Nullkigan posted:Seaguard with shields actually seem to have *slightly* higher stats than spearmen, by something like one point of defence after all of Tyrion's upgrades. But they have a reduced model count vs spearmen, and reduced range vs actual archers. You stick three to four units of sea guard in front, six to eight archers behind them, some swordmasters on the sides (maybe Phoenix Guard if you're fighting lots of Hydras and Dragons, but in general Swordmasters are better), at least one bolt thrower with the razor standard to massively boost the damage from multi-shot, and keep a few slots for cav / dragons. Congrats, you've won the game. Go take Naggarond on turn 20! I found out if you look at the unit's info card, there are these little tiny icons along the bottom. Mousing over them gives the exact values. It took me FOREVER to find this out because they are TINY. I would have much preferred they just defined it in the green text on mouseover. Some irrelevant stats are prominently displayed, like who gives a poo poo that spearmen get a lovely charge bonus at 10, I don't care. I do care to know what their magic resistance might be though, or some special ability they have built in. But the game makes it kind of hard to see the nitty gritty stuff that is actually useful to know.
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Oct 15, 2017 15:17
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Nullkigan posted:On the in-game interface, sure. In the help browser it doesn't. Which means that you actually have to hire the unit to figure out what the icons mean, as you can't select the unit to hover over the icon until then. TBH I just look poo poo up in the custom battle interface
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Oct 15, 2017 15:20
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You can pin the unit card in the recruitment menu so you can find mouse over the icons/check how big anti-infantry and anti-large bonuses are/how much of the damage is armor piercing. You still need to be able to recruit the unit though, so you can't check while deciding what building to build.
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Oct 15, 2017 16:03
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I give razorstandards to the trash infantry, +10 armor piercing damage per hit from a high model unit that does maybe 2-6 armor piercing damage is huuuge.
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Oct 15, 2017 17:03
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I usually give Razor Standards to cavalry or equivalents. Karl Franz's Reiksguard getting an additional 10 AP damage and being able to use it in splash attacks against the enemy's flanks is exceptionally good, and lets them take on enemy cavalry with greater odds.
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Oct 15, 2017 17:12
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I give razorstandards to the trash infantry, +10 armor piercing damage per hit from a high model unit that does maybe 2-6 armor piercing damage is huuuge. Do you know if the the bonus applies to missile weapons as well?
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Oct 15, 2017 17:19
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It does not effect the missile damage tooltip only the melee tooltip, so I'd assume no.
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Oct 15, 2017 17:21
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I'm confused by the motivations of the various factions. Lizardmen and High Elves want to fix the chaos sinkhole. Great. Dark Elves want to destroy the chaos sinkhole to fuel a spell of some kind. Ditto for the Skaven. 1) Why are the Lizardmen and High Elves rivals? They want the same thing. Trying to stop each other seems counterproductive. 2) The vortex is kind of important. Everybody is gonna have a bad time if the world is flooded by demons. The Dark Elves have as much of a vested interest in the world not ending as everyone else. Why would they want to destroy the vortex? I can understand the Skaven being short-sighted idiots who totally would destroy the vortex to fuel some crazy ritual, only to cause the world to end around their ears, but the Druchii aren't morons, they're just sadistic and selfish.
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Oct 15, 2017 17:59
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Geisladisk posted:I'm confused by the motivations of the various factions. lizardmen want to fix the vortex in a way that lets them tap it more directly for power high elves are not going to let some frogs mess with the thing that keeps their island functioning malekith wants to siphon off some of the power of the vortex to make himself god-wizard-king of the elves, no, seriously, THIS TIME WILL BE DIFFERENT aaand rats want to grind that poo poo up and snort it, because rats
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Oct 15, 2017 18:03
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I believe the Dark Elf plan is more or less to seize control of the Vortex so they can force the High Elves to install Malekith as King of Everything, essentially at gunpoint.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:04
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It's kinda funny to me to watch an entire army composed of dragons squeeze onto a boat to sail across the sea instead of, y'know, just flying.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:07
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Geisladisk posted:I'm confused by the motivations of the various factions. Dark Elves don't exactly want to destroy it. Their whole plan is taking the shitload of magic that is flying around in the Vortex and siphoning it straight into Malekith, which would basically make him god king of the world. As for the demons, they probably figure they can either beat or treat with them once they're done, because Elves are nothing if not full of Hubris.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:08
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Also helfs are arrogant dicks and lizardmen are literally willing to reshape continents because some ancient map showed them looking different so when push comes to shove it's no surprise they're at oddstoasterwarrior posted:I usually give Razor Standards to cavalry or equivalents. Karl Franz's Reiksguard getting an additional 10 AP damage and being able to use it in splash attacks against the enemy's flanks is exceptionally good, and lets them take on enemy cavalry with greater odds. Does it apply to damage from charge impact? Reiksguard don't have normal splash attacks
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Oct 15, 2017 18:13
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StashAugustine posted:Does it apply to damage from charge impact? Reiksguard don't have normal splash attacks I can only assume yes, but even if it doesn't, being able to readily flank plus the charge bonuses to melee attack makes them much more able to use the +10 AP damage when it counts.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:16
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StashAugustine posted:Also helfs are arrogant dicks and lizardmen are literally willing to reshape continents because some ancient map showed them looking different so when push comes to shove it's no surprise they're at odds The Lizardmen ending also implies that they go on a genocidal rampage once they get control of the vortex. Since their interpretation of the Great Plan is so strict that they basically consider even the good races to be aberrations, they're basically gonna murder everyone.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:18
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Yeah while the lizardmen probably want to save the world in some form, destroying Ulthuan to do it isn't a problem for them, and hence the apprehension on the HE part. I'm also sure the HE being a bunch of snobby assholes aren't too happy with anyone but them being in control of the vortex.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:19
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Lizardmen were created by the Old Ones to fight Chaos, with this Great Plan dictating what to do. Unfortunately the Great Plan 2as never fully explained to them before the Old Ones vanished so they are trying to interpret the Old Ones plan. They are handling it like an autistic person would handle half-finished instructions; do everything literally the wait for further instructions while vehemently being opposed to any outside feedback. High Elves have similar goals when fighting Chaos but have their own agenda. Since they contributed a lot and Slann are a bunch of do nothing autists they don't fully trust that they'll actually follow through with the Elves desires. Elves also see themselves as superior to other races and while they'll ally with others they seem to treat them like they are the slow kid in class that eats paste.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:20
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Constantine XI posted:It's kinda funny to me to watch an entire army composed of dragons squeeze onto a boat to sail across the sea instead of, y'know, just flying. Heck of a long way to fly maybe they need a breather now and then?
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Oct 15, 2017 18:20
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Don't dragons need sleep?
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Oct 15, 2017 18:21
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I think we can agree that the rats that just want some of the delicious radioactive cheese are the most noble.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:22
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Isn't the vortex still held together by Caledor? Leave the poor guy alone to do his job.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:23
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lol lizardmen don't want to save the world they want to follow some grand design that is broken, fixed by some skink with crayons, then told to them by someone with sleep apnea who can't form coherent sentences they just want to stick to a plan despite it not working
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Oct 15, 2017 18:23
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lizardmen are so dumb that the only ones that can think know they can get away with not doing a drat thing and pretending to sleep all day hell one of them even pretended to be dead and then told the skinks that "I am no longer dead" just to get out of work
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Oct 15, 2017 18:25
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The Slann all pretended to work while the Old Ones we still in the office and they're still waiting for them to clock out first. Every time a skink wakes them up they're like, "Oh, you disturbed my uh, meditation yeah. Busy busy busy working on that grand plan and ask that. Come back on Friday"
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Oct 15, 2017 18:28
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Looks like some people's continents are in the wrong place. 
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Oct 15, 2017 18:31
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Somebody mentioned terradons with fire bolas and it's true, they own. A couple unit of those and a flying shaman with wind blast means no AP missiles left alive for Dark Elves.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:33
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Perestroika posted:Dark Elves don't exactly want to destroy it. Their whole plan is taking the shitload of magic that is flying around in the Vortex and siphoning it straight into Malekith, which would basically make him god king of the world. As for the demons, they probably figure they can either beat or treat with them once they're done, because Elves are nothing if not full of Hubris. Albeit knowing Malekith, it's actually more likely to cause him to literally explode since that seems to be how all his Great Ideas (tm) work out.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:47
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As to why Lizards and High Elfs dont get along that much: Lizards dislike High Elfs because: -Some genius high elfen adventures stole "discovered" some things and took them to Ulthuan, said things were pretty important in the geomantic web or whatever, so extra demons happened. -Lizards not caring that much for distinctions between various Elfen races (although I distinctly remember some fluff that implied that they are more OK with woodelfs, as those are supposed to be kind of working like intended), so High Elfs get some flak for stuff Dark Elfs did. -Lizards are supposedly hilariously alien (Skinks the least, Slann the most) in their thought processes. More so then Orcs for reference. -IIRC Lizards are the race least pissed off by High Elf arrogance because they dont give a gently caress if high elfs are arrogant or not. High Elfs dislike Lizards because: -First contact was mass murder of the high elfen expedition by the Lizards after a Slann muttered something like "ehh, High Elfs already, they shouldnt be here yet", with which he meant "get them back to their ships" but he didnt add that part so the Lizards murderized them all. -Lizards giving no fucks whatsorever about High Elfs which doesnt play well with elfen arrogance.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:47
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I want to see the mother of all grudges that would occur if Thorgrim had discovered the Slann were responsible for the decline of the Dwarven empire.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:51
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Mightypeon posted:As to why Lizards and High Elfs dont get along that much: To summarize: All most of the "good" and half the evil factions could have saved the world from chaos 100 times over already if every single one of them weren't arrogant self-sabotaging dickheads.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:55
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Which is easy to say from the perspective of somebody with a god's eye view of the setting.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:59
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Man, once you kill off your main rival as either Queek or Kroq-gar, the game really starts dragging if you're playing tall and just farming ritual resources. And IMO, on VH, playing tall is pretty much a necessity because lol you're not defending all your poo poo with the massive upkeep increase per new army. Really wish the final ritual didn't cost that much resources, or maybe if there were more chances to get more of them. Maybe sacking/razing settlements of established empires (and only if the settlement isn't suffering from sacking cooldown) should get you a flat amount, at least to encourage doing something else apart from sitting pretty and waiting on missions.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:59
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Geisladisk posted:I'm confused by the motivations of the various factions. Malekith doesn't want to do poo poo with the Vortex at first. His whole start is "A PROPHECY SAYS WHEN THE TWIN TAILED COMET GETS REALLY REALLY LOW, ULTHUAN WILL BE CONQUERED." and has decided that means him so is prepping for Ulthuan Campaign no. 5. Once he realizes the Vortex is unstable, his new plan is put the energy into himself so he can conquer Ulthuan with it and force the Elves that actually know about the Vortex to fix the problem with their new god king emperor. New Butt Order posted:To summarize: All most of the "good" and half the evil factions could have saved the world from chaos 100 times over already if every single one of them weren't arrogant self-sabotaging dickheads. Literally the only faction that isn't an abyssal failure is the Empire. Bretonnia flees it's oaths in many of the final battles, even before End Times. They also had issues in Storm of Chaos. Wood Elves are dicks and don't do poo poo. High Elves don't do poo poo outside of Teclis who desperately tries to get everyone onboard with his "help the other guys." plans. Dwarfs decide to stay in their holds and be murdered rather then helping out. Lizardmen keep staring at their Great Plan until the world ends. Empire even into the End Times loving beats back almost all it's enemies, builds giant ghostgate style walls to hold back more enemies, builds more stuff to murder more enemies. Empire has this poo poo on lock. I mean gently caress, when you combine everything that happens/happened in WHFB, the VAMPIRES did more for the forces of Order then the Lizardmen. Hell, the loving ORCS did more for the forces of Order then the loving High Elves at the end. All these fun new races sound so cool and unique and great in Total War until you realize lorewise Mannfred, Louen, Orion, and the rest ended up being the biggest fuckups imaginable.
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Oct 15, 2017 19:07
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Lizardmen are brutish savages who don't know the glory of silly hats. Why should high elves respect them?
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Oct 15, 2017 19:13
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Yeah but End Times isn't really Warhammer, whatever GW says. It's meant to bridge the gap between the Warhammer setting and Age of Sigmar's, and without the stalking horse of AoS it would have been written a lot differently (if at all).
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Oct 15, 2017 19:15
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Rookersh posted:All these fun new races sound so cool and unique and great in Total War until you realize lorewise Mannfred, Louen, Orion, and the rest ended up being the biggest fuckups imaginable. Let's be fair, neither of those other two have anything resembling poo poo on Manny in terms of loving up. When you look up "gently caress up" in the Encyclopedia Imperium or whatever pretentious name it surely has, there's just a picture of Mannfred stabbing Gelt and a shitload of expletives 
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Oct 15, 2017 19:19
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