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It is true that you can only train reflexes so far; eventually it becomes literally impossible to react in time. Like, if I'm tasked to hit a button as quickly as possible after a light changes color, then there's going to be a minimum delay between when the light changes and when that button gets hit, which no amount of training can resolve; it's baked into my physiology in terms of neuron response times and stuff like that. The only way to improve the response time is to try to anticipate. In day-to-day life we can compensate to some extent by looking for signals that predict the event that we're looking for. So instead of looking for you to throw a punch, I look for you to shift your weight in preparation for throwing a punch, or I look for your expression to change, etc. Videogames use these tells as well of course. But since they're artificial, it's entirely possible for the game to create tells that precedes their event by too short a timeframe to be useful. A little googling turned up this article which claims a hard floor of 200ms -- if your tell precedes the event by less than that, then it's literally impossible for even a highly-trained player in good neurological/physical condition to react in time.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:00
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Toadsmash posted:Bloodborne or any other Souls game is quite possibly one of the worst examples you could use to make that argument. YMMV, I guess.  Certain bosses like Orphan of Kos were definitely overwhelmingly fast and aggressive IME until I got familiar with their speed and patterns and could react better.Soulsborne (or more particularly Bloodborne, which is why I said Bloodborne) aren't just "wait for tell, react correctly;" they're "wait for tell, react correctly quickly" and the harder enemies and bosses have more difficult tells to recognize and narrower windows to react to them and fewer correct responses. PVP is an entirely different issue though and that wasn't what I meant. Toadsmash posted:Shrug. It's still subjective. I just think there are far better ways to ratchet up difficulty tuning, even in a platformer/quasi fighting game. Like what, raise HP and damage to a ridiculous amount like actually lazy games do it? Starve the player of resources in a way that insufferable roguelites like Caveblazers do it (or did, anyway, I haven't played it in a while) so even small mistakes add up to insurmountable obstacles later? TooMuchAbstraction posted:It is true that you can only train reflexes so far; eventually it becomes literally impossible to react in time. Like, if I'm tasked to hit a button as quickly as possible after a light changes color, then there's going to be a minimum delay between when the light changes and when that button gets hit, which no amount of training can resolve; it's baked into my physiology in terms of neuron response times and stuff like that. The only way to improve the response time is to try to anticipate. I mean, yeah, man. Dead Cells enemies are super predictable, they're just fast and aggressive. That's how the game gets harder, and that's how you get better at it, by recognizing enemy behaviors, anticipating them, and reacting quickly enough. It's not impossible by any sense of the word, you just need some familiarity with it. Early enemies in Dead Cells have a noticeable ! that appears before they attack. The duration of that indicator gets shorter and shorter as you fight faster and more dangerous enemies, but their behavior is very predictable nonetheless, so once you get accustomed to "he's going to run up to me, pause, !, hit," you figure out the timing of when to roll or parry or whatever. Being able to react faster and smarter (I'm going to parry, roll past him, then hit him) and recognize when it's better to try to kite enemies into a different area is all part of getting good at this game or any other action game. The idea that having much of this rely on reflex isn't skillful design is patently ludicrous to me.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:16
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Enemies with patterns don't rely on raw reaction time, as has sort of been alluded to. Many enemies in these kind of games are very difficult to react to coming in blind. However, once a pattern has been learned and the timing memorised, you can respond much, much faster. People who can do a Flawless run of tough Guitar Hero song at incredible speed are unlikely to have significantly higher reaction times on average than anybody else. It's more of a case of knowing what's coming through practice and hitting the timing window with precision. A very basic example would be being able to pause a stopwatch example on 10.00 seconds or something. Even without practice, most people can hit that within 50ms either side, even with a reaction time of around 250-300ms. In Dead Cells I started off slow and steady, and after a few hours play I could easily go through the first 2-3 levels without even taking damage at all while also doing it 4x faster. Even the most punishing games shouldn't ever have timing windows so small that 99% of players couldn't hit with relative ease so long as they have the timing down.
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Nov 14, 2017 21:19
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madjackmcmad posted:I got cool roguecel swag these are both so cool
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Nov 14, 2017 21:20
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I can only imagine what 15 year old ADOM must be like.
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Nov 14, 2017 21:22
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My roguelike roundup from the last few days: Dungeons of Dredmore: It's been a while since I played it, but it's just as plodding as I remember. The spread of abilities is inventive but the glut of items becomes a managerial chore. The maps are way to big; that's probably my fault for not selecting the "no time to grind" option in the beginning. I'm only on the second floor but if I could go back I'd swap out my fire magic for acrobatics or psionics so I can grab some of the out of reach items. Plenty of talent trees I've never bothered to try before, too. Caveblazers: Never heard of it before but it was on sale and looks alright. Fun enough, looks like Splunkey crossed with Risk of Rain, but after an hour or so I really wished there was a more reliable or more abundant method of healing. There's a lot of fast moving enemies that keep getting in cheap shots and all the perks in the world won't help me when I'm in single digit HP. ToME: Picked it up again for a more serious attempt and am making good headway through the quests, as far as I can reckon. I opted for a Dwarven Bulwark for the traditional sword and board techniques and she's really all about plugging up hallways and tanking hits. I just noticed this morning that the weapon generalization ability boosted axes and maces, not just swords, but I haven't had any problems with any damage race I've run into yet. Level ~14 and finishing the last area from the first quest, and I'm already dealing with an almost full ability bar. The sheer amount of statistical information each piece of equipment has is incredibly daunting but it's starting to make some sense. I also really like unlocking new classes and races through doing certain quests. I never expect it and it's a great reward. Sproggiwood: Probably the polar opposite from ToME in terms of character stats, but the ideal pick-up-and-play roguelike for when you don't want to get invested in a character. I like systems where you can bring back your resources gain while dungeoning and use them to benefit later characters, but since there's nothing governing the town upgrades you can purchase it's a strange uphill push to get enough money to max out the merchant's guild perk before buying weapons and armor, because doing otherwise is throwing money away. DoomRL: The first time I played I went in completely blind and made it halfway through Demios, doing as many optional areas as possible and putting talent points where ever felt good. Then I looked at the wiki, made a plan for getting a Master talent, then sacrificed whole battalions of doomguys to stupid deaths and surprises while working on a specific build. Today, finally, I had one live long enough to learn Ammochain and find a minigun. He also found an onyx mod that I slapped onto some red armor. He was invincible. Then I saw some stairs into The Spider Lair and thought "what could possibly go wrong?" RIP Chuck, you poor bastard. Infra Arcana: "Oh it's like a horror Nethack, cool. ... Okay, so I shouldn't rely on the melee, got it. ... Maybe playing as the occultist will help, knowing spells and all. ... Alright, I'm getting the hang of thi- why are three invisible things clawing at me and I can't do anything??" Nine characters in the grave, and only one of them lasted to level 2. I am as enthusiastic about roguelikes as I am terrible at them. LawfulWaffle fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 21:28
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DoomRL is probably my favorite roguelike, even if I haven't played it in a while. I should pick it back up again.
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Nov 14, 2017 21:30
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DoomRL is a classic the way Doom is a classic, which is pretty amazing given how "X, but with Y!" games usually turn out.
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Nov 14, 2017 21:59
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Dr. Dos posted:Ok, Karmic Dragon Scale Mail is such a perfect artifact for ADOM though. Get out of here Ring of Immunity. And wtf that dagger is amazing. lol check this out, biskup updated some of the crowning gifts: code:
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Nov 14, 2017 22:15
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Is there any advice for Infra Arcana that might increase my survivability? I feel like I'm running against a brick wall more so than with most roguelikes. Reanimated Dead seem to be my number 1 cause of death, either from bursting from a wall in a wave or a smaller pack that won't stay down. There are some other problems, like cascading insanity effects or general ineffectiveness in combat, that also seem to keep me down. Anything I'm missing?
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Nov 14, 2017 22:37
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the #1 biggest thing to be mindful of in infra arcana is that if you can avoid fighting something then you should always do as such, since killing things grants no exp at all and at worst you're going to be wasting resources from fighting also make sure to destroy zombie corpses by attacking/kicking them the moment you get a chance, and if you have a decent melee weapon equipped then it can be easily done in a single turn since some are better than others at doing it. it can be worth it to take a turn to destroy a corpse over attacking another zombie since your main goal is to limit the overall threat against you and having them keep popping up won't do you any favors. with insanity-related stuff you always want to reserve your lantern for dark areas and use it to mitigate the drain from being in those places. keeping it down also plays into avoiding enemies since they will stress you out more and more. as long as you can keep your building % from hitting 100 then you can avoid getting the more 'permanent' % stacked onto you and part of the game is keeping an eye on that by not wasting way too much time on one floor or loving about with spooky things super often. a thing to keep in mind is that if you go down a floor then the initial, building percentage is dropped to 0 i'm not an expert by any means but a good bit of staying alive in the game is managing your overall situation instead of focusing on trying to do everything possible
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Nov 14, 2017 23:20
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That's good advice. It occurred to me while I was typing the previous post that the rewards for killing things was limited to the few items cultists drop. I didn't know about destroying corpses; that will save me some heartache.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:27
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Toadsmash posted:Reflexes != skill. I've done Watcher enough times to know exactly what he does (I've killed him already multiple times, for the record), but I still screw up dodging his charge over half the time because I'm looking for it, I see it coming, I know EXACTLY how I need to dodge it, but I screw it up anyway just because the time between the warning he's about to do it and when it actually executes is so tiny I just can't react fast enough. That doesn't have anything to do with skill. Your reflexes are either fast enough to get it done in time or they're not. That is terrible design to me. It's the brute force approach to raising difficulty. For the vast majority of the game, when I take a hit, it's because of some combination of screwing up my own attack timing/positioning or just not paying attention, and if I die in those situations, I know exactly what I should've done differently. "Sorry, you just can't react fast enough" is not a problem I can do anything about, and I have a frustratingly high number of late game deaths now that feel that way. Reacting quickly to stimuli is a skill, it does decrease with age, and if the game really is requiring a reaction time faster than you can physically respond to, that would be frustrating as all get out. Do consider, this is a game with speedrun mechanics and time-locked doors, manual dexterity is something the game asks of you if you want to reap certain rewards. But reflexes are only one of a few skills that make up Good Deadcellsmanship. If you can't reliably clear a boss with reflex and twitch play, do something else. Find other ways to damage the boss, find weapons that let you stay at a distance, and keep yourself in a position (if possible) where the timing is more forgiving. Maybe it takes longer and isn't as clean, that's how it goes. I am likely worse at Dead Cells than you, and I haven't played in a fair bit. But don't forget, something like 100 pages ago I bitched about a Dead Cells boss requiring more speed than I had. It was a few patches back but I think my big problem was that trying to get hits in during the available windows felt impossible. I kept at it and found a way. You talked about being able to play Dark Souls without reflexes being an issue, which means you probably didn't parry very often. Or perhaps you do now after 1000s of hours because there's so much of that game you've got down to muscle memory. You clearly have some degree of reflexes, so find a strat that doesn't require you to bust out 300 APM tier finesse. I think -- and maybe you'll agree, on reflection -- you're falling into the trap that all of us get bit by from time to time, which is when a game pushes our poo poo in mercilessly and then (because we like to talk about and study game design) we turn around and say "I'm not losing because I'm not good enough, I'm losing because this is bad design!" FWIW, I don't like being too slow to react to things either. I'm playing FF12 Zodiac Age, and gosh if the conjunction / mist-whatever timing powers don't seem a bit harder than they did in 2006 :-/
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Nov 15, 2017 00:53
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LawfulWaffle posted:That's good advice. It occurred to me while I was typing the previous post that the rewards for killing things was limited to the few items cultists drop. I didn't know about destroying corpses; that will save me some heartache. yeah, occasionally you get stuff like grave dust from zombies which can be useful, but a lot of the good stuff is going to come directly from the static things like bookshelves or chests or whatever, if not already sitting on the floor. also i can't imagine not knowing about destroying bodies, make sure to look that up in the commands. when using the kick or whatever on a body it'll automatically use your melee weapon for the task if it's better at it, iirc the game used to have it where killing things gave exp but one of the major recent-ish patches shifted it fully away from that. now most of your early exp for sure will come from identifying potions and scrolls along with seeing new monsters. the obelisks that spawn always give 15% of a level, i think
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Nov 15, 2017 00:57
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Reaction time is one of the physical abilities that least decays with age, at least compared to something like endurance or fine motor control. Like there is some decline but you're talking about the difference between being able to react to visual stimuli in a quarter of a second vs. a fifth of a second. It's one of the reasons professional FPS and RTS players tend to peak in their teens or early 20s whereas many of the best fighting game players in the world are a bunch of 40-year-olds.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:04
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In fairness, the new content in Dead Cells is quite a bit harder and the new boss The Assassin is really tough.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:09
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PMush Perfect posted:I can only imagine what 15 year old ADOM must be like. From personal experience a bit better than 20 year old ADOM but essentially the same as other early ‘00s era roguelikes. By those standards ADOM was pretty full-featured with an overworld, a plot, quests, user interface screens, a built-in guide and the like. It was amazing compared to my first roguelike which was some ancient version of Nethack (predating races) and I still have a soft spot for it because by those standards it was polished as gently caress. The big problem is that standards have shifted and the sort of throw poo poo at the wall balance that characterized games of the era doesn’t cut it anymore. Biskup has done a lot to deal with some of the more ridiculous exploits that have popped up over the years but left a lot of the ragged difficulty curve with insane challenges that’s prompted people to do those exploits in the first place.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:41
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As long as a vast majority of ADOM quests are pointless suicide dives for no reward, they will remain undone and unwanted. Hell, with the addition of the map fragments, you don't even need to get picky digging for arts to feed the demented ratling.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:43
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Just cheat if you legitimately have trouble with specific points. Turn off the cheat when you're past the boss that ruins your night. I don't have time to grind for 200 hours to learn the exact right time to react. Its a cop out sure, but I enjoy myself.
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Nov 15, 2017 04:43
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never mind this post sucked
RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 05:14
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RyokoTK posted:The whole selling point of games like Dead Cells and Nuclear Throne is gittin’ gud, you dingus. If the man wants to cheat in his single player game, who cares? He clearly bought it for a different reason than the "selling point" Now if he was saying he just cheated past every single boss that would be weirder because at that point you are just playing the game to see the sights I guess? But skipping a boss who's pattern you just can't get down when you have limited game time isn't that bad. Mithross fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 05:26
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Yeah I guess that was a little mean.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:34
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I do think all games with bosses(and some sort of "game over" that doesn't let you start over right before the boss) should have a vs. boss mode where you can fight specific bosses for practice before fighting them in actual runs or whatever like some shoot em ups do. then you don't need to spend time just getting back to the boss only to get a small amount of time learning what's up. crimzon clover's stage select letting you pick bosses, and the similar spell practice in imperishable night is great
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Nov 15, 2017 05:39
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Yet another thing great about Crypt of the Necrodancer is having a massive selection of practice modes. The game is only half an hour long, or considerably less if you're speed running, but you can practice against all of the bosses and play each zone individually until you get everything down. Makes getting through All Zones a lot more palatable.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:41
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there's always the issue with games along these lines where if you can't often get to a certain point then you're not going to be very well prepared to deal with it when you actually do manage to make it not sure if there's a clean solution to it, but, whatever
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Nov 15, 2017 05:41
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Crypt of the Necrodancer's practice modes are an amazing idea I think a lot more games should make use of.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:50
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Johnny Joestar posted:there's always the issue with games along these lines where if you can't often get to a certain point then you're not going to be very well prepared to deal with it when you actually do manage to make it With games where inventory management (or at least long-term inventory management) I'm not sure what you could do. With short run/procedural games where you build up over time you could get a practice mode against the boss once you've reached it once. You still get the surprise face melting, and the practice mode isn't necessarily going to let you completely chump the boss, because you'd have resources available that in a true run you would have used by the time you reached it, but you could still learn. I know there are times I lost interest in a game once I got roadblocked if it was a hassle even making it to the boss that was stopping me from progressing, either because he was in a difficult/annoying stage or just a long ways past the last checkpoint. Spending 15 or 20 minutes of tedium just to get to the part that you are having trouble beating is exponentially more frustrating than just being stuck at a boss you can retry easily.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:53
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I know I raged a lot at Teleglitch's levels 3 and 4 because when I was starting out, I didn't know how to recognize the armed guards, and their pistols will kill you in a second or two if you don't notice them coming. A practice mode that lets you face off against each enemy type, or at least observe them, would have been welcome when I was learning the game.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:55
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Teleglitch is a great amazing game (with tragically limited replay value once you actually pull a win), but a lot of people get suckered by the bait-and-switch atmosphere on what it's actually about. The first 2 levels are very much zombie apocalypse survival with scrounging of resources, and while there's quite a few zombies left in level 3+, it pays to just swap to full run&gun mode; just shoot first and ask if you can knife them later. Once I taught myself that, and forced myself to make an abrupt gameplay change sharply at the start of lvl3, you tend to see a lot more of the mid and lategame. Great game.
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Nov 15, 2017 12:48
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woot notched a cogmind win last night. If you're struggling, consider not upgrading your weapon slots and focusing on propulsion (treads) and combat utilities (weapon cyclers, targeting computers, and particle chargers), coupled with two cannons (not kinetic). 6 tread slots doubles as armor, and running two high end cannons with all the supporting utilities makes short work of enemies. The only downside is that not upgrading weapon slots makes the midgame painful, which can be mitigated by some of the mid game branch rewards. Two HERF cannons obliterate grunts, sentries, and hunters. Two Nova cannons wreck programmers. Just need a launcher in the inventory for swarmers. Happylisk fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 14:58
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Mithross posted:With games where inventory management (or at least long-term inventory management) I'm not sure what you could do. This is literally what roguelikes are. Repeated failure and tedium as you blow through the early levels and make your way to the interesting stuff. Your first win in crawl is probably in the neighbourhood of an 8 hour game (or more), and that might take a hundred or more games to get there. Hell a central conceit of the roguelike genre is to use procedural generation to keep the early game interesting as you repeat it over and over again.
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Nov 15, 2017 15:05
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Jordan7hm posted:This is literally what roguelikes are. Repeated failure and tedium as you blow through the early levels and make your way to the interesting stuff. Your first win in crawl is probably in the neighbourhood of an 8 hour game (or more), and that might take a hundred or more games to get there. The early game so rarely actually is interesting though. Because it has to double as "get your character up to speed" and "get the player up to speed", generally you have few options and your opponents lack tactical complexity -- in many games this manifests as "I can either bump-attack, or maybe I can cast my basic attack spell a few times; my opponents can only bump-attack". The problem of retreading the early game over and over again is part of why I increasingly favor short roguelikes and/or Dungeonmans-style metaprogression that effectively lets you skip over content once you've cleared it a few times. If I can make it to the big nasty boss at the halfway point of the game, then I probably don't need to prove that I can clear the first quarter of the game any more.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:30
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Different strokes. I think think that the early game can often be the best part, especially if the roguelike is tuned hard - I love crawl's early game spikiness. I'm not talking about floors 1-2, where you only have a couple options, but rather floors 3-Lair, where you have to adapt to the choices the game gives you. The mid-game, at which point good players can basically always have what they planned on having, is where it drags for me. e: but it's explicitly what Rogue does, is more my point. If the designer is letting you skip the first quarter of the game rather than looking for ways to make it more interesting, they're diverging pretty hard from the philosophy of the genre. Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 16:35
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Jordan7hm posted:Different strokes. I think think that the early game can often be the best part, especially if the roguelike is tuned hard - I love crawl's early game spikiness. I'm not talking about floors 1-2, where you only have a couple options, but rather floors 3-Lair, where you have to adapt to the choices the game gives you. The mid-game, at which point good players can basically always have what they planned on having, is where it drags for me. Pre-Lair DCSS is actually why I stopped playing DCSS. Not only is the early game the part you have to play over and over, when you have the fewest options to do anything, but also RNG can completely dick you over and kill you and you get to spend even more time in the early game. Early game in pretty much every roguelike and roguelite is kind of dull and I'm not entirely sure how to remedy the problem. Even in the really short and tight games like DoomRL or pretty much any action roguelite, the first quarter of the journey is simply spent collecting your first couple levelups and pieces of loot that define the rest of the run. You can't really skip it, since it's actually an important part of the game, but you also can't make it too complex or challenging because it's the part of the game where you don't have anything. The best thing that any game can do is at least make the early boring part go quickly, and to try to normalize the loot game a bit so at least you leave the preamble with something good. RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 16:37
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Why can't the game just say "okay, this time you start with a shotgun and green armor" or "this time, you start with a pistol and a knife and red armor"? And start the player at character level 3 instead of 1, so they can immediately make some build decisions. Then just don't have the first couple of dungeon levels and start the player immediately against monsters that have a little more variety to them. Nothing says you have to start as a level-0 scrub equipped with whatever you could scrounge from the dump outside of town. EDIT: put another way, if you can broadly describe the arc of your game as: 1. Get character off the ground (assemble basic kit that all characters get; get some levels) 2. Round out build; get character-defining abilities/equipment 3. Win the game It's not clear to me that step 1 is actually contributing significantly.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:12
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Speaking of difficulty, modes and such: How do you guys feel about game modifiers? i.e. Being able to switch certain features/balance settings on/off, make the game easier, harder, or more chaotic? As long as it's clear this is a "custom" mode of course
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Nov 15, 2017 17:20
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I'd rather just have traditional difficulty levels. Balance and cultivating a sense of achievement is more important than absolute freedom in this context.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:22
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Yeah, that's certainly within the realm of possibility. One hurdle to jump, though, is that the early game is also sort of your tutorial for most games. The more options you start the player with, the sharper the learning curve. That said, you definitely don't need to start at "completely untrained naked hobo with a +0 stick." e: this was in regards to starting with more kit.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:22
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zirconmusic posted:Speaking of difficulty, modes and such: Do you mean difficulty settings at the start, or things you can do in game that change the challenge level? It sounds more like the first one and my feeling with that is it's fine, possibly great, as long as you never call it a custom mode and it doesn't seem like one. E: that last bit might be a bit vague. Most people will play on the default. More options better but in order to know things about the options the user needs to already have played the game some, so by the time you bother with the fiddly bits you already know what is going on. Unless it's like, a make three game better button, why play on the custom mode instead of playing the game everybody else plays? MuffiTuffiWuffi fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 17:27
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zirconmusic posted:Speaking of difficulty, modes and such: They can be done well, and they can be done poorly. Usually I find modifiers that are just "enemies have X% more health/damage/whatever" to be less interesting, but e.g. FTL does just fine by having its modifiers be "enemy ships are equipped as if they're from -1/0/+1 sectors from normal; event rewards are generated as if they're from +1/0/-1 sectors from normal". That works in FTL because the entire game is about carefully managing resources, so any change to resource requirements can have a substantial snowball effect over the course of the game. One thing I like about 20XX (which is a procgen Megaman game, so a platformer, not a traditional roguelike) is that its difficulty modifiers are things like "monsters move faster", "there's no stores", "health no longer drops", "everything moves faster", etc. Each mod changes how the game plays in a very noticeable fashion, and you can mix and match mods to create a custom difficulty that is well-suited to what you're looking for. Bastion tried to do something similar, but a lot of its effects were statistical (e.g. enemies have an X% chance of ignoring damage), and ultimately I found they didn't make as much of a difference in gameplay as I would have liked.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:31
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