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ronya posted:maybe I'm confused, but it seems like the general thrust of the linked post was argument over whether Wales is innocent of the original sin of imperialism - which seems relevant re: pretense and injustices The "thrust" of the "argument" was people suddenly deciding to be dicks because "lol Wales". That the discourse was ever deeper than this is wishful thinking.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:18
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ronya posted:1) relevant to the nationalism discussion: I wonder how much of the SWA's fury stems from bafflement that Holyrood is supporting a policy that punishes Scotch and favours sweet ciders This is an unfair burden on people who prefer getting hammered on whisky to beer, where the duty is £19.08 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer which is a god drat  unit of measurement, or cider which is £40.38 per hectolitre of product, which is an at least sane if very variable measurement, and means that a 4x 2L bottles of 5% cider containing the same amount of alcohol would be dutied at £3.23. Or if it's cider from a small local producer making less than iirc 7000L of cider a year, dutied at £0.00.So much cider favoritism. quote:2) thanks mr... cameron? the coalition govt backed away really hard from any policies that smelt of social engineering following the fiasco that was the pasty tax, however
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Nov 15, 2017 16:19
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"Actually our nationalism is ok, unlike all other forms" - the citizens of Every Country in the World
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Nov 15, 2017 16:21
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pitch a fitness posted:The Department of Health had been considering this well before the 2010 election. DH have been funding minimum pricing research since at least before 2008 (based on publication dates from Sheffield's alcohol policy research group). The main paper everyone talks about - SAPM's paper on minimum pricing came out 24th March 2010. interesting! I wasn't actually aware of the source of the buzz, I only saw some WHO policy papers dating to 2012 it figures that there's a particular research group at the bottom of it
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Nov 15, 2017 16:24
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They're just increasingly not giving a gently caress about not being completely mental
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Nov 15, 2017 16:28
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Lt. Danger posted:Well, Saith's argument was that we probably shouldn't cast I think people were talking about casting Wales away because of their brexit vote, which would be pretty hypocritical for the English. Everyone in this thread SHOULD know that england as a state has been one of history's worst and remains responsible for like half of the bad things happening in the world and recognise we were and are the bad guys, we just got away without having to apologise or admit it like the Germans did. But as an English citizen I have gently caress all power to do anything about it and I'm at the peak of political influence compared to a citizen under the empire. So I don't think you can blame non-ruling class English people in the same way I wouldn't blame Israelis or Americans for the horrific crimes of their state. Also the Welsh poster was using genocide as an "emotive term" when the English genuinely did genocide other groups in very recent history which confused things.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:29
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learnincurve posted:Apon seeing it for the first time my baby thought BBC Parliament was some sort of weird apocalyptic reality show where old men were the villains I mean, s/he's not wrong. Re: alcohol and minimum pricing - anecdotally, I drank very heavily in my 20s (undiagnosed depression, as it turns out), but since I discovered cannabis (at the admittedly late age of 29) my drinking has dropped pretty dramatically. I'll have a drink maybe four or five nights a month now, and get drunk maybe two or three of those. Otherwise, weed's totally replaced booze in my affections now, and the main reason I still drink is because it's the only drug you can use in pubs and restaurants and pretty much anywhere else you might want to socialise. I also vaporise it, so it's nowhere near as harsh on the lungs as smoking. Obviously the ideal would be for no-one to feel the need to escape reality through drugs, and cannabis has its drawbacks like anything else (it should certainly be strictly age limited), but the case for legalisation is so head-thumpingly obvious that I hope it figures in the policies of our coming Corbyn government.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:30
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Although to be fair I think the banning Welsh stuff is legitimately genocide as defined by the UN, genocide isn't always about violently murdering everyone.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:31
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nopantsjack posted:But as an English citizen I have gently caress all power to do anything about it and I'm at the peak of political influence compared to a citizen under the empire. So I don't think you can blame non-ruling class English people in the same way I wouldn't blame Israelis or Americans for the horrific crimes of their state. This is what I was getting at, yes. Not 'gently caress Wales, the Welsh deserved it', though I'm a little surprised I even have to say that.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:33
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nopantsjack posted:Everyone in this thread SHOULD know that england as a state has been one of history's worst and remains responsible for like half of the bad things happening in the world and recognise we were and are the bad guys, we just got away without having to apologise or admit it like the Germans did. The people at the top were often the same, but both England and Britain did terrible poo poo at different points in time. It wasn't the Prussians who had to apologize in your example.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:41
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Nobody has suggested that individuals need to take responsibility for macro-scale inequality. Christ.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:47
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Guavanaut posted:Didn't most of the really bad poo poo happen after England stopped existing as a sovereign political state. England still has the start of the Transatlantic Slave Trade and the colonization of North America under its belt, but Company Rule in India was the British East India Company, the Scramble for Africa was the British Designated Areas, and the hegemonic structure that covered a quarter of the world's land and people wasn't the English Empire. Even when you move past the point that England exists as a functionally separate country, it's still the dominant force in whatever the UK does, and stuff like "Welsh people are retards who must be forced to speak English to save them from barbarity" is about English supremacy regardless of whether the name on the door said "England" or "Britain." Same in Ireland - some of the aristocrats and colonisers might have been Irish or Scottish, but the interests they were serving were English.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:49
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ronya posted:1) relevant to the nationalism discussion: I wonder how much of the SWA's fury stems from bafflement that Holyrood is supporting a policy that punishes Scotch and favours sweet ciders It will impact on a lot of the blends domestically, but single malts will be unaffected and the vast majority of whisky profits are made overseas in any case. I think it's a case of some very big drinks manufacturers (Diageo) trying to set an important EU precedent in their favour. The last thing they want is hard evidence that MUP works and is legal under European law.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:51
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Lt. Danger posted:Well, Saith's argument was that we probably shouldn't cast sawing off Wales a la bugs bunny is obviously facetious, but I struggle to read the later post by Saith as anything but earnestly asserting that Wales did not benefit at all - never mind enormously - from empire, which is questionable on its face that aside, it is straightforwardly kind of bizarre to regard 19th century Wales as exceptionally poor compared to non-London England (here are some estimates, for the interested). of course one can then argue that it's London wot did it, but that rather favours those arguing for the salience of class rather than genocidal concepts of nation.... it is truly weird to emphasize grievances from fifteen centuries ago, not least because the pattern of wealth distribution and power fifteen centuries ago bears a remarkably poor correspondence to national wealth in the 19th century or for that matter national wealth today. it's just so strange that I hesitate to take that post entirely seriously.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:53
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This whole nationalism chain proves if nothing else that the English left remains absolutely terrible at understanding what the British state actually is Independence for everyone we used to own, unless we say you're British now
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Nov 15, 2017 16:54
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Corrode posted:Even when you move past the point that England exists as a functionally separate country, it's still the dominant force in whatever the UK does, and stuff like "Welsh people are retards who must be forced to speak English to save them from barbarity" is about English supremacy regardless of whether the name on the door said "England" or "Britain." Same in Ireland - some of the aristocrats and colonisers might have been Irish or Scottish, but the interests they were serving were English. Though the following argument is that the people who do that also take the same view of the majority of the English. So phrasing it in nationalist terms still doesn't work very well.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:57
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Obliterati posted:This whole nationalism chain proves if nothing else that the English left remains absolutely terrible at understanding what the British state actually is It will never not be darkly funny that we said "ok fine, Ireland should be independent, except the bit that we colonised extra-hard, that's still ours." OwlFancier posted:Though the following argument is that the people who do that also take the same view of the majority of the English. The classist oppression of the English peasantry and the ethnic + classist oppression of the Welsh go hand in hand, they're different dimensions of the same problem. Living Image fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 16:57
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Corrode posted:It will never not be darkly funny that we said "ok fine, Ireland should be independent, except the bit that we colonised extra-hard, that's still ours." The people who live there would probably take that position though. At some point you can colonize a place hard enough that repatriating it is as wrong as not.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:59
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Corrode posted:Even when you move past the point that England exists as a functionally separate country, it's still the dominant force in whatever the UK does, and stuff like "Welsh people are retards who must be forced to speak English to save them from barbarity" is about English supremacy regardless of whether the name on the door said "England" or "Britain." Same in Ireland - some of the aristocrats and colonisers might have been Irish or Scottish, but the interests they were serving were English. Obliterati posted:Independence for everyone we used to own, unless we say you're British now
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Nov 15, 2017 17:00
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Party Boat posted:I went looking for ye old minimum alcohol pricing effortpost and found it back in a 2012 thread: Need archives, can someone repost this?
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Nov 15, 2017 17:01
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Lt. Danger posted:Nobody has suggested that individuals need to take responsibility for macro-scale inequality. Christ. Then what the hell are you banging on about? People ITT are aware of this poo poo so it "just want people to be aware of it" is done.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:02
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Obliterati posted:This whole nationalism chain proves if nothing else that the English left remains absolutely terrible at understanding what the British state actually is This happens whenever the IRA gets brought up. There's always someone for whom the ANC or the Kurds or Malcolm X is a-ok, but god forbid someone suggest the IRA might be somewhat justified because that hits a little bit close to home.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:02
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Guavanaut posted:I'm sure that the right would love to say that the Virgin Islands weren't British anymore as soon as it started costing money, but they could probably use more help, not less. I get why you would think this but I doubt it. The British Overseas Territories absolutely haemorrhage cash and always have: however you're not a world power if you don't own things on other continents Evidence: Ascension Island, which is critical to the South Atlantic Airbridge that supplies the Falklands, and the £300 million we spent on St. Helena's airport which was built at right angles to the prevailing wind and is thus incredibly dangerous and not used
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Nov 15, 2017 17:06
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Coohoolin posted:This happens whenever the IRA gets brought up. There's always someone for whom the ANC or the Kurds or Malcolm X is a-ok, but god forbid someone suggest the IRA might be somewhat justified because that hits a little bit close to home. Nothing good happens when you start going on about the IRA. It’s toe curling stuff.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:07
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Guavanaut posted:This is my fundamental problem with the English identity movement and English Parliament and "I'm English not British" and all that, which I don't have so much with people defining as Irish or Welsh. Aside from the near circular Venn diagram with white thumb people, it's making a particular power play. They can identify as Yorkshire or something instead. The Mercian identity movement is actively anti-racist, but it currently consists of about half a dozen bearded leftists. Idk, I think if someone asked I'd say I was English, but I'd tick the British box on the form because that's also true (and more relevant in most cases). I did know one of those guys who was very I'm ENGLISH not BRITISH though and last I heard he was getting really into conspiracy theories about the Jews, so it's a pretty short hop from "English identity" to full fash. Ironically, and bringing this discussion full circle, by ancestry he was Welsh.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:08
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Corrode posted:It will never not be darkly funny that we said "ok fine, Ireland should be independent, except the bit that we colonised extra-hard, that's still ours." Then when Ireland and Scotland said "hey can we have a bit more autonomy? we're not even asking full independence at this point, just our own structures of governance" the British knew exactly what to do! Start a loving war in one case and ignore them for a century in the other.  e: ^^^ Yeah it's the people who really go out of their way to identify that way who are the most likely to be halfway down the fash rabbithole. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 17:12
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Obliterati posted:This whole nationalism chain proves if nothing else that the English left remains absolutely terrible at understanding what the British state actually is Now try talking about police abolition with literally anyone, including on the left
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Nov 15, 2017 17:15
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Coohoolin posted:This happens whenever the IRA gets brought up. There's always someone for whom the ANC or the Kurds or Malcolm X is a-ok, but god forbid someone suggest the IRA might be somewhat justified because that hits a little bit close to home. That is because when you bring it up you talk as if the IRA is your team in the football. It actually was and is a very complicated situation. You don't appreciate that because you are a cretin.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:16
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Kind of laughable that the Irish ever attained independence at all really, we were a bunch of famine-wracked agrarian peasants who had been brutally subjugated, genocided, and blocked from education and land ownership, and we somehow ran a successful war of independence using outdated weaponry and limited supplies. Turns out the British might have been quite bad at this colonial thing actually
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Nov 15, 2017 17:17
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As demonstrated by this thread, the prevailing attitude in Britain is 'gently caress Wales'. Depending on which party's in power, this can range from 'I don't care, gently caress Wales' to 'I can't wait, let's gently caress Wales'. It's clear to me that while we depend on British mercy, our quality of life will not significantly improve. This is why I am a nationalist. And yeah, fwiw I don't actually relate to people who existed 1,500 years ago and I don't blame people living today for the actions of their ancestors. Saying the Welsh benefited from Empire to defend the actions of the state that has routinely suppressed and oppressed us, is I think similar to saying 'black people have it better in America than they would in Africa'.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:17
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What I don't get is when I get lectured about "Englishness" by people whose methods of working out Englishness mean I am more English than they are. My matrelineal and patralineal lines are English for about 400+ years, compared to some of the people who complain about "being English" I am pretty high up it and yet they don't like me pointing this out.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:19
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Corrode posted:Idk, I think if someone asked I'd say I was English, but I'd tick the British box on the form because that's also true (and more relevant in most cases). I did know one of those guys who was very I'm ENGLISH not BRITISH though and last I heard he was getting really into conspiracy theories about the Jews, so it's a pretty short hop from "English identity" to full fash. It's the same thing that happened with the Russians. Soviet culture building was fine while it was "let's celebrate the diverse and unique cultures of all the different soviet states", which was the case pretty much until Stalin came along, when it became a matter of imposing Russian culture as the ideal standard for the Soviet union. This caused a conflating of Russian identity with Soviet identity, and created a sort of identity bubble among Russians who, once Sovietism was no longer a simple extension of Russian identity with some nice superiority complexes to stroke people's national egos, gave rise to a siege mentality. It's been corrupted! We must win back our rightful place! Basically a supranational conglomerate of identities subjugated to representing merely an extension of one (USSR -> Russia, UK/British empire -> England) creates people whose national identity includes as an inherent characteristic an expectation of superiority, which explains the very few number of steps it takes to go full fash, as you're describing.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:20
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So I have genuine and legitimate grievances with British colonialism, as in it has actually directly effected my life in horrifying ways, with the kind of ethnic cleansing that does not get boiled down to the semantics of language. I’m not going to oh poor me wall of text, google “stolen generations”. I’m taking some issue with the use of the word English here, it’s unfair and coming across as quite a bit xenophobic from a outsiders perspective. The Welsh, Scottish and Norn Iron upper classes all benefitted from colonialism, while their poor got stomped on, same as in England. Today the Welsh Scottish and Norn Iron upper classes benefit from capitalism, while their poor get stomped on, same as in England. What we need to do here is Stomp on the rich.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:21
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Kind of laughable that the Irish ever attained independence at all really, we were a bunch of famine-wracked agrarian peasants who had been brutally subjugated, genocided, and blocked from education and land ownership, and we somehow ran a successful war of independence using outdated weaponry and limited supplies. It took a military force 2.5x the entire population of the Orange Free State and ZAR combined to 'win' the Second Boer War.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:24
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Coohoolin posted:Need archives, can someone repost this? theres a bunch of code tags and graphs and gently caress this
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Nov 15, 2017 17:24
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crispix posted:That is because when you bring it up you talk as if the IRA is your team in the football. It actually was and is a very complicated situation. You don't appreciate that because you are a cretin. I was about to post something to that effect, there's a different reason why people take umbrage when you specifically bring up the IRA, Coohoolin.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:25
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Saith posted:As demonstrated by this thread, the prevailing attitude in Britain is 'gently caress Wales'. FWIW I've been busy today but would probably have sided you on this. Although maybe I'm biased since my great-grandpa was a Cymraeg-speaking Welshman. Of course that doesn't make me stop calling the language Cumrag and laughing, sorry.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:27
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:Actually, availability and pricing has an absolutely immense effect on illegal drug use as well Availability and pricing of illegal drugs has a tendency to simply push addicts towards a different, more accessible drug though. The price of heroin going up doesn't result in less heroin addicts, it just means they switch to fentanyl or fall more heavily into criminality. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen with alcohol, where if prices rise too heavily people will turn to other drugs to get their fix. I'll grant you that some people are more predisposed to addiction than others, but when you use that argument to try and minimise the social drivers of addiction/self-destructive behavior you come dangerously close to the old concept of it being a moral failing.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:28
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I mean, you literally had an example of what happens when alcohol is banned in the USA; the best gift you could possibly hand to organised crime and every related problem becoming much worse because the market is now totally unregulated. poo poo's easy to make.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:30
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jabby posted:Availability and pricing of illegal drugs has a tendency to simply push addicts towards a different, more accessible drug though. The price of heroin going up doesn't result in less heroin addicts, it just means they switch to fentanyl or fall more heavily into criminality. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar happen with alcohol, where if prices rise too heavily people will turn to other drugs to get their fix. But as I understand it minimum pricing isn't supposed to address chronic addiction, but binge drinking, and the slightly grim tradeoff (inherent in all public health interventions) is that the amount of harm caused to addicts is likely to be less than the amount of harm prevented in bingers.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:32
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