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I agree with everyone that we need to destroy the reinforcement fleet, but we must remember that we want Ceres to be both Independent and Alive, so if we do intercept the Reinforcement fleet we need to do so very near to the time we can threaten the Ceres Fleet, they need to leave or be destroyed before they can decide to just glass everything anyway, at the very least if we're nearby they aren't going to use ordinance on the civvies that they need to save to try and shoot at us. We're the MFN, our ships and brave(+/-fanatics) crewmen shall be shields against the spears and arrows that the facists in the UT would use against other humans. Newfleet and 2nd Fleet's Carriers should intercept the Reinforcement fleet, 4th fleet should head to Ceres to keep the Ceres fleet from doing anything too hasty. scavy131 fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 04:20
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scavy131 posted:I agree with everyone that we need to destroy the reinforcement fleet, but we must remember that we want Ceres to be both Independent and Alive, so if we do intercept the Reinforcement fleet we need to do so very near to the time we can threaten the Ceres Fleet, they need to leave or be destroyed before they can decide to just glass everything anyway, at the very least if we're nearby they aren't going to use ordinance on the civvies that they need to save to try and shoot at us. As soon as the reinforcement fleet has bought it, we need to send a message to the Ceres fleet. They can join the Ceresians, or they can surrender to us, or they can fight us in a battle they’ll lose, but if they glass the colony we’ll make sure that not one of them makes it home alive.
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Jan 16, 2018 04:25
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Fray posted:As soon as the reinforcement fleet has bought it, we need to send a message to the Ceres fleet. They can join the Ceresians, or they can surrender to us, or they can fight us in a battle they’ll lose, but if they glass the colony we’ll make sure that not one of them makes it home alive. It's not likely that the Ceres fleet is made up of Ceres natives, and I get the feeling the civvies have no particular love of Terrans in particular considering they're an occupation. If we send the Ceres fleet a message to surrender or withdraw, we have to be able to back it up immediately with a fleet just outside of missile range, not over a day away. scavy131 fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 04:37
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Dr. Snark posted:WE'VE GOT JUSTIFICATION BOYS Aye 1: Full speed towards Ceres. 2a: Upon arrival warn the Terran fleet to leave Ceres. 2b: Any ships that have defected to Ceres may remain. 3: If any Terran ships refuse to depart, open fire. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 08:02
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This is a relief mission. Thus we should ACT like it. Operation: Ceres Liberation Fleet makes a direct corse for Ceres. 20% before missile range they send a message to the occupying UT vessels requesting they recognise the independence of Ceres. Vessels wishing to remain loyal to UT may signal their surrender and should withdraw to a neutral (IC or TFS) port until the end of the current crisis. Vessels unwilling to surrender are welcome to discuss the matter with the incoming Martian squadrons. Ships are to use commander's best judgement as for how long after weapon range to give ships to signal their surrender. After that, signal the UT reinforcement squadron to stand down. And move to an intercept position. Ceres defense depends upon the status of surviving vessels loyal to Ceres. Having a Ceres left IS part of the fleet's mission though.
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Jan 16, 2018 09:27
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It's a bit much to demand their surrender, that's a lot more hostile than requesting that they simply leave. If we allow them to leave for anywhere, they'll of course join up with the reinforcements, but in that case at least there'll be a chance we can avoid open conflict. The UT ships can not in good conscience simply abandon their duty without being branded deserters. Demanding their surrender is basically firing the first shot. That said, perhaps we can't handle all of them working together, in which case we might as well.
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Jan 16, 2018 09:52
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Veloxyll posted:This is a relief mission. Nope. It's a declaration of war.
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Jan 16, 2018 10:07
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mossyfisk posted:Could we just dump all our missiles into their troop transports, and not engage the rest? They could retake it by bombarding Ceres until everyone is surrendered or dead. Dance Officer posted:Nope. It's a declaration of war. And pretending it isn't is about as convincing as Cryo saying it's not about ideology.
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Jan 16, 2018 10:44
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RA Rx posted:It's a bit much to demand their surrender, that's a lot more hostile than requesting that they simply leave. From our point of view, the worst-case scenario is that the two fleets join up, AND glass Ceres, AND fight us with the numbers advantage to a point where we lose ships we can't afford to lose given the crab war. That's why I felt we had to fight the closer enemy concentration (the reinforcement fleet) first, and neutralize it one way or the other.
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Jan 16, 2018 13:05
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All right, I can agree with that line of thinking, but I hope you all understand that demanding their surrender, and effectively impounding their ships in what they consider to be their own space, will be in nearly every way considered a declaration of war by the UT and they would largely be right to think so. They will refuse, we will open fire. Offering to let a neutral country impound their ships for us while trying to put down a revolt we provoked is just putting a dash of paint on it for posterity before we kill them. I mean, if they actually accepted it, it'd be more than a borderline meaningless polite gesture, but the chance of that is vanishingly close to 0. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 13:21
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RA Rx posted:All right, I can agree with that line of thinking, but I hope you all understand that demanding their surrender, and effectively impounding their ships in what they consider to be their own space, will be in nearly every way considered a declaration of war by the UT and they would largely be right to think so. If we do anything other than "sit there and watch the Terrans reconquer Ceres" it'll be a declaration of war, and given that we're the reason that Ceres rebelled I'm not certain about that one either. They ain't going to take this lying down.
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Jan 16, 2018 13:27
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Yeah, I mean we might as well, but at least letting it come to a standoff between their combined forces would have a sliver of a chance to ward off war. Granted that's a remote possibility too at best, so we might as well just ask them to defect or surrender outright, rather than pussyfoot around with some weird demand to set course for a neutral port. How would that even work? We send an escort? How large? Do they temporarily surrender? Do we chase them down if they change their minds or do they let troops onboard or disable their weapons somehow? Once again this hasn't been thought out. We should either aim for a standoff or force them to surrender their ships to be impounded by us. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 13:30
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RA Rx posted:Yeah, I mean we might as well, but at least letting it come to a standoff between their combined forces would have a sliver of a chance to ward off war. There's basically zero chance the Terrans will surrender; all that matters is keeping a figleaf of casus belli in how we beat them.
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Jan 16, 2018 13:32
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Dance Officer posted:Nope. It's a declaration of war. Any declaration of war raises the very real possibility that we get our everything blown up by Earth's still existing IPBMs. In my mind, we're stuck. We've got to do something, and yet if we do something, we risk war with whatever is left of "United" Terra. If that includes their IPBM silos, we're all dead. Even if Putina wouldn't nuke us we don't know if Earth First would, and we don't know who is in charge of their missiles right now. Whatever our plan is, we need to avoid escalating the situation further, or at least to the point where we get nuked.
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Jan 16, 2018 14:51
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Embrace the MAD, do not be paralyzed by it. It's a suicide bomb option and if they take it while under non-existential threat it just means Saros is tired of doing an lp and we should respect that.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:04
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Not Alex posted:Embrace the MAD, do not be paralyzed by it. It's a suicide bomb option and if they take it while under non-existential threat it just means Saros is tired of doing an lp and we should respect that. We're a clear and present existential threat to the Terran government.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:09
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Friend Commuter posted:We're a clear and present existential threat to the Terran government. We're a threat yes. But until we're actively moving to conquer earth I'm pretty sure they prefer not dying in nuclear hellfire and dooming humanity.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:14
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Not Alex posted:Embrace the MAD, do not be paralyzed by it. It's a suicide bomb option and if they take it while under non-existential threat it just means Saros is tired of doing an lp and we should respect that. Saros was willing to let the lp end in MAD before. Also a threat with no follow through is just lame
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Jan 16, 2018 15:15
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Not Alex posted:We're a threat yes. But until we're actively moving to conquer earth I'm pretty sure they prefer not dying in nuclear hellfire and dooming humanity. We're busy toppling their government for shits and giggles, and the people trying to take over ain't likely to let the old guard retire peacefully.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:18
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Yes, if appropriate. But there are levels of conflict that don't invoke MAD. We can tussle around their border states and no rational actor will kill everybody to kill us. And if you assume an irrational actor then they don't need justification to nuke us all.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:21
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Dance Officer posted:Saros was willing to let the lp end in MAD before. The LP can definitely continue from the POV of the colonies, now cut off from mother planet support, which is definitely a lot more interesting to read. It also suddenly makes the IC super relevant again, even in their diminished state, because they'll be the only state left with more than 10m pop colonies scattered across various moons. I'd love to see the thread deal with the harsh reality that the crabs are still there, they're still coming, they only know about Nova Sol and Ranginui right now, and do we just abandon those systems while hoping that the crabs only automated attack as far as they see ships and reinforcements? Volmarias fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 15:30
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Saros posted:
I'm pretty sure a large portion of the thread isn't even reading all of the updates because almost everyone is getting the relative positions of Earth, Mars and Ceres wrong. As shown in the above image, We're almost smack bang in the middle of a straight line path from Earth to Ceres right now.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:30
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NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS IS A HORRIBLE PLAN THAT'S TOTALLY loving DOOMED AND DIDN'T HAVE AN OUNCE OF THOUGHT PUT INTO IT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA SURRENDER TO EARTH gently caress gently caress gently caress gently caress gently caress WE SURRENDER AAAAAAAAAAAAA Seriously though guys would you please stop proclaiming imminent doom every single time there's a modicum of confrontation? Yeah, we're gonna have to shoot at the Terrans. No, it will not cause a nuclear war. Welcome to Vietnam, or Korea, or half a dozen African brushfires. Like, remember the critical letter in MAD - M. You only trigger it if you're feeling suicidal, which none of the Earth factions would have reason to be even if we stomped every single ship rimward of Earth orbit. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 16:11
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LLSix posted:I'm pretty sure a large portion of the thread isn't even reading all of the updates because almost everyone is getting the relative positions of Earth, Mars and Ceres wrong. As shown in the above image, We're almost smack bang in the middle of a straight line path from Earth to Ceres right now. Yes, Saros made a note that the UT Reinforcement fleet is taking a circuitous route to stay way outside like 120mil km of Mars, which means we're not only faster, but they added time and distance to their route. It'd actually be entirely possible for Newfleet to rush to Ceres, deal with the Ceres Fleet, and then hit the Reinforcement fleet afterwards with time to spare for rearming. I'd prefer not to have to take two fleets with just our Newfleet detachment. We've got to consider this like the case with Titan, we can only help proclaim and guarantee their independence if the only nuclear warheads above Ceres aren't potentially going to vaporize all the civvies there. We must deal with the Ceres fleet first or at the same time as the Reinforcement fleet. Remember, Mars has a great track record for defending worlds we've posted up over, think how much of the IC fleet decided to bash itself to death against us at Titan.
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Jan 16, 2018 16:17
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Ceres is expendable, Mars Fleet is not. If we're gonna go to war with Terra(and we definitely are) it makes sense to make the first strike as hard as possible. Aim to destroy the much bigger fleet with a fresh fleet of your own, then pick off the bunch at Ceres at your leisure. This guarantees much more damage to Terran Fleet than going for Ceres first and hoping the Terran reinforcement fleet won't retreat.
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Jan 16, 2018 17:13
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I'd say Ranganui is somewhat expendable compared to Sol too. I wish at least my Ark Royal class CLAA could leave and join up for the awesome action. Inglonias posted:Any declaration of war raises the very real possibility that we get our everything blown up by Earth's still existing IPBMs. This much brinksmanship should be fine, and is a better alternative than schizoid oscillation between ultra provocative behavior and attempting to return to the time before Dominion - letting brave freedom fighters we called to action die for us is unconscionable and I'd rather MAD happen, though I don't think it will. If things do go horribly wrong we can pull out the daggers later, for now we need to present a united front and plan together. There's no need to argue this. Most Crabs First voters like me are voting to deploy NewFleet, and the voters who want to reverse are greatly outnumbered. We need to focus discussion on the reduction of Terran influence and how to do so militarily while minimizing escalation. --- Please send me to Ceres? I want to shoot down missiles and save friends. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 17:29
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I really think we're forgetting that we have both several Newfleet squadrons, which outnumber and outweigh the Reinforcement Fleet, and 4th fleet which, considering the partially compromised state of the Ceres fleet and it's ground defenses, should be more than enough to dislodge the UT from Ceres. We can do both things, and with the Reinforcement fleet doglegging like it is around Mars, we've got more than enough time to be able to intercept both fleets simultaneously.
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Jan 16, 2018 17:44
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Crazycryodude posted:NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS IS A HORRIBLE PLAN THAT'S TOTALLY loving DOOMED AND DIDN'T HAVE AN OUNCE OF THOUGHT PUT INTO IT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA SURRENDER TO EARTH gently caress gently caress gently caress gently caress gently caress WE SURRENDER AAAAAAAAAAAAA Lots of Dominion people were strenuously denying that their plan was to get all out war with the UT. Play with fire and prepare to get burnt I suppose! Goto Ceres Issue ultimatum to Ceres fleet - GTFO or die. If they decline then we shoot them until they change their mind. Once we have orbital control of Ceres the UT fleet is most likely going to cut their losses and return home to support their own civil war. Z the IVth fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 18:38
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Z the IVth posted:Once we have orbital control of Ceres the UT fleet is most likely going to cut their losses and return home to support their own civil war. [/b] So we'll need to hit them at about the same time if we want to remove both fleets from the UT forcepool.
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Jan 16, 2018 19:42
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Dance Officer posted:Ceres is expendable, Mars Fleet is not. If we're gonna go to war with Terra(and we definitely are) it makes sense to make the first strike as hard as possible. Aim to destroy the much bigger fleet with a fresh fleet of your own, then pick off the bunch at Ceres at your leisure. This guarantees much more damage to Terran Fleet than going for Ceres first and hoping the Terran reinforcement fleet won't retreat. This is all absolutely true from a military strategy perspective, but from a political prospective it makes Mars look opportunistic and uncaring. If our first priority is the defense of the Ceres population then our first stop has to be Ceres. Even if you don't care about Ceres you have to care about the picture our actions paint to the rest of the outer colonies, and even the rebellious populations of Earth. "Mars will fight to secure your freedom but only in the safest way. If a few million of you are vaporized by UT warheads while waiting for our forces to take a more convenient route, please pardon our tardiness. We really do want whats best for you, as long as it's also whats best for us."
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Jan 16, 2018 19:48
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More importantly MAD implies that there's enough agreement to push the button, and right now with the absolute chaos on Terra there's basically no way anyone has enough authority to start firing missiles. Right now the Terran Navy is openly assaulting their own homeworld, so if we shoot at them who's going to be mad at us? The lunatics already trying to kill everyone and install a full-on military junta?
Dr. Snark fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 19:53
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quote:if we want to act like bloodthirsty warhawks who love explosions we should deploy. drat too late. Rush to Ceres, then deal with the reinforcements. Given the relative distances and speeds, we can easily do both. Xarn fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 20:11
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Let's not forget everyone, the Martian Fleet hasn't become humanity's heroes by being late to protect their target. If we'd waited for Nova Sol it'd be entirely gone now, if we'd bided our time before securing Titan, there would be no TFS. We must secure the safety of Ceres and the Ceresian Civilian population either first or simultaneously with engaging the Reinforcement Fleet.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:31
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Dr. Snark posted:More importantly MAD implies that there's enough agreement to push the button, and right now with the absolute chaos on Terra there's basically no way anyone has enough authority to start firing missiles. Right now the Terran Navy is openly assaulting their own homeworld, so if we shoot at them who's going to be mad at us? The lunatics already trying to kill everyone and install a full-on military junta? The concern I have right now is that ship and base commanders will, with the lack of a clear chain of command, act independently. It would only take a couple Brig Gen Jack D. Rippers to launch on their own before everyone else would follow suit because at that point of course they are going to face retaliation. Hopefully after the Moscow bombing there are enough safeguards to mitigate this possibility, but ultimately the person in command of a ship has to have the authority & ability to launch nukes in the event of loss of communication.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:33
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Nevets posted:The concern I have right now is that ship and base commanders will, with the lack of a clear chain of command, act independently. It would only take a couple Brig Gen Jack D. Rippers to launch on their own before everyone else would follow suit because at that point of course they are going to face retaliation. Hopefully after the Moscow bombing there are enough safeguards to mitigate this possibility, but ultimately the person in command of a ship has to have the authority & ability to launch nukes in the event of loss of communication. Uh...the ship commanders have a clear chain of command otherwise the assault on Earth and Ceres wouldn't be possible. Ditto for the return fire from Earth. That's more what I was getting at. With separate chains of command that are actively antagonistic to each other it be foolish to assume that attacking the Navy would result in the Army launching the nukes.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:42
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 Plan variants here! I have condensed a couple of similar options. Please vote for your first and second preferred choices. LLSix posted:Straight to Ceres scavy131 posted:Operation Astarte Mukaikubo posted:No more half measures
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Jan 16, 2018 20:45
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No More Half Measures, then Straight to Ceres
unwantedplatypus fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 21:00
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Straight to Ceres. It's the important thing here, and we're better off keeping as much local superiority as we can.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:00
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I stand by Operation Astarte, followed by No More Half Measures.
Dr. Snark fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 21:02
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Straight to Ceres. We're protecting comrades, we fight when we have to.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:03
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