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The movie is partly about how and why the Wakandans are allied with the CIA. Come on.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:32
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The movie is partly about how and why the Wakandans are allied with the CIA. Come on. Not really, Ross doesn't do anything in any official capacity after coming to Wakanda and there's no sign he ever tells his superiors about anything that's happened.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:35
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Wakanda has its own CIA. The guy in charge and his secret police chief repeatedly scold his ex for potentially revealing state secrets.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:38
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Arist posted:Not really, Ross doesn't do anything in any official capacity after coming to Wakanda and there's no sign he ever tells his superiors about anything that's happened. how is he not acting in any "official capacity"? what does that even mean? how on earth is he not acting in an "official capacity" when he's actively assisting with a coup?  i just love the "well he's on PTO so it doesn't matter that he works for the cia"
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Feb 21, 2018 04:39
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Waffles Inc. posted:how is he not acting in any "official capacity"? what does that even mean? how on earth is he not acting in an "official capacity" when he's actively assisting with a coup? This seems like a pretty disingenuous line of questioning considering your edit is preemptively making fun of the answer you think I'm going to give to the rest of the post despite your claims that you have no idea what I'm talking about.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:45
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Ross's superiors at the CIA: "so whatever happened with that whole thing where you were going to buy some vibranium for us and then you instead took the guy into custody and disappeared for several days after you were reported shot by your colleagues. Oh you don't want to discuss it? Okay that's cool, whatevs"
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Feb 21, 2018 04:45
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The earlier parts of the movie already establish he hides things from his superiors.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:47
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Is it actually a coup if you're just putting the guy who got coup'd in the first place back in charge? And also you're primarily stopping the new guy from passing laser guns around the world so
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Feb 21, 2018 04:48
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I don't know how he explains it and I don't actually care, because it's not in the movie and is frankly pretty irrelevant to the way events play out.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:48
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BrianWilly posted:Is it actually a coup if you're just putting the guy who got coup'd in the first place back in charge? And also you're primarily stopping the new guy from passing laser guns around the world so Well but that's assuming the CIA even finds out after those other agents relinquished custody of his bullet riddled body to the leader of a supposedly third world country. Probably they would side with his actions tho, but they probably didn't press him too hard for details lol
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Feb 21, 2018 04:50
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Arist posted:This seems like a pretty disingenuous line of questioning considering your edit is preemptively making fun of the answer you think I'm going to give to the rest of the post despite your claims that you have no idea what I'm talking about. the questions are rhetorical OP because it's absurd to say that he's not acting in an "official capacity"
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Feb 21, 2018 04:51
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BrianWilly posted:Is it actually a coup if you're just putting the guy who got coup'd in the first place back in charge? And also you're primarily stopping the new guy from passing laser guns around the world so It's not like the guy cheated. It was a legitimate and fair transfer of power.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:57
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's not like the guy cheated. It was a legitimate and fair transfer of power. "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony"
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Feb 21, 2018 04:59
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Waffles Inc. posted:the questions are rhetorical OP In what respect does he perform his job as a CIA agent in the few days he spends in Wakanda? For the vast majority of that time, he is either hiding or fleeing with the royal family and the only notable action he performs the entire time he's there is done with the explicit instruction of locals who know far more than he does. Nobody in the CIA knows where the gently caress he is, nothing he does is sanctioned, you know exactly what the hell I mean. That's not saying the CIA is good, or that he should be waiting for orders, or whatever. It's just saying that as far as it affects his character he might as well have quit his job five minutes before taking the bullet for Nakia, because it affects nothing outside of his presence in the UN scene.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:00
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This is the plot of Iron Man 2. Tony is justified in benefitting from stolen technology because it's water under the bridge, yet he is also justified in ruthlessly crushing a competitor because stealing is wrong.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:01
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BrianWilly posted:Is it actually a coup if you're just putting the guy who got coup'd in the first place back in charge? And also you're primarily stopping the new guy from passing laser guns around the world so wakanda doesn't have democratic elections, the elite of 3 of the 4 political parties agree on a candidate and hope their candidate defeat whomever the 4th party puts forward--and a new "election" can be called by anyone who has a blood relation to the current ruler Killmonger "legally" won the throne, and T'challa rules lawyered him and all but one of the political parties are ok with that because they simply like T'challa more Arist posted:In what respect does he perform his job as a CIA agent in the few days he spends in Wakanda? For the vast majority of that time, he is either hiding or fleeing with the royal family and the only notable action he performs the entire time he's there is done with the explicit instruction of locals who know far more than he does. he doesn't clock in at CIA HQ in virginia, he's not a receptionist or accountant or something like that Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Feb 21, 2018 |
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Feb 21, 2018 05:03
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I would go so far as to say they have been dominated by this particular clan for a long time, given their reaction to Erik.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:05
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Killmonger did not legally win the crown. T'Challa never yielded nor was he killed. 
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Feb 21, 2018 05:05
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Arist posted:In what respect does he perform his job as a CIA agent in the few days he spends in Wakanda? For the vast majority of that time, he is either hiding or fleeing with the royal family and the only notable action he performs the entire time he's there is done with the explicit instruction of locals who know far more than he does. But yo he is on the job when he takes the bullet and his fellow agents are the ones who willingly give him to the Wakandan king (who they supposedly think is just some rich ruler of a normal third world country??) Like at the very least the CIA is going to be blowing up his phone wanting to know what happened with his mission that went totally loving sideways and resulted in: 1. him not obtaining the vibranium he was supposed to buy 2. him taking the guy they were supposed to buy the vibranium from into custody after a bunch of poo poo got wrecked 3. the guy they had in custody getting taken from under their nose and disappearing off the face of the loving earth 4. him getting shot and then stabilized by some future tech the Wakandan royal family just happened to have in their drat pockets 5. him disappearing off the face of the earth for several days Like it's the CIA he didn't disappear from his job as a bank teller or something.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:09
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Waffles Inc. posted:he doesn't clock in at CIA HQ in virginia, he's not a receptionist or accountant or something like that You didn't answer the question. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This is the plot of Iron Man 2. Tony is justified in benefitting from stolen technology because it's water under the bridge, yet he is also justified in ruthlessly crushing a competitor because stealing is wrong. this is obvious bait, but holy poo poo, what the gently caress are you talking about
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Feb 21, 2018 05:10
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Roth posted:Killmonger did not legally win the crown. T'Challa never yielded nor was he killed. They had more than enough opportunity to simply suspend the kingship. Arist posted:this is obvious bait, but holy poo poo, what the gently caress are you talking about Why T'challa's coup is not a coup.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:11
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Arist posted:You didn't answer the question. Q: "In what respect does he perform his job as a CIA agent in the few days he spends in Wakanda?" A: Literally everything he does in Wakanda is him performing his job as a CIA agent because his job as a CIA is intrinsic to who he is. Literally everything he does is him performing his job as a CIA agent. This is true of professions far short of those in a high level intelligence agency as well. You're essentially asking "In what respect does James Bond perform his job as MI6 agent when he's in a car chase/kidnapped by bad guys/shooting lasers in space" everything he does is his job as CIA agent
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Feb 21, 2018 05:14
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Arist posted:I love both this movie and Civil War, so I'm loath to point this out, but outside of the scenes with Bucky in both films they take place like, a week apart. Did you know in that week, T'Challa also finally visited Disneyworld since his Dad never took him there? I mean, poor guy never had a proper childhood. He went with Cap, which was also his first time. Black Widow was the adult of the group.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:16
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I guess you can say him giving them CIA intel on Killmonger might constitute a betrayal, but it is equally likely that he is making a judgement call since Killmonger is obviously a rogue agent planning on doing some big time terrorism. In which case the CIA case file he walks them through seems like something a CIA agent would do.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:17
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Guy A. Person posted:But yo he is on the job when he takes the bullet and his fellow agents are the ones who willingly give him to the Wakandan king (who they supposedly think is just some rich ruler of a normal third world country??) The scene where he explains (or, as implied, lies about) what happened to his superiors is not in this movie, so I am fundamentally incapable of telling you how he does it. I don't know why you're asking me in the first place, because not only do I not have those answers, as I stated earlier, I don't think it actually matters.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:18
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I'm pretty sure that Ross still having his job at the end at least implies the CIA was ok with what he did.HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:They had more than enough opportunity to simply suspend the kingship. I know I'm not the most attentive person while watching movies due to my issues with staying focused on one thing for too long, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't a plot point?
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Feb 21, 2018 05:18
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Arist posted:The scene where he explains (or, as implied, lies about) what happened to his superiors is not in this movie, so I am fundamentally incapable of telling you how he does it. I don't know why you're asking me in the first place, because not only do I not have those answers, as I stated earlier, I don't think it actually matters. I'm not asking you anything (??) I'm pointing out details you seem to be missing as you insist that the CIA has nothing to do with a movie that had a subplot about a CIA agent getting shot and ending up with the good guys just in time for him to explain the tactics of the bad guy ex-CIA agent who is trying to kill everyone
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Feb 21, 2018 05:21
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Arist posted:The scene where he explains (or, as implied, lies about) what happened to his superiors is not in this movie, so I am fundamentally incapable of telling you how he does it. I don't know why you're asking me in the first place, because not only do I not have those answers, as I stated earlier, I don't think it actually matters. why is it important to you that Ross be a rogue agent
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Feb 21, 2018 05:21
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I didn't really care for this movie (although not outright bad, it was merely pedestrian); i think the discussion here overstates how much it had to say and how it said it but at any rate Having a melee single-combat duel to determine who gets to lead is probably the worst possible way to run a government Just saying Edit: oh and Angela Basset is looking gorgeous, i seriously cant believe she's nearly sixty
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Feb 21, 2018 05:23
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Waffles Inc. posted:Q: "In what respect does he perform his job as a CIA agent in the few days he spends in Wakanda?" Then you've watered down the original argument to the point of absolute meaninglessness. Guy A. Person posted:I'm not asking you anything (??) I'm pointing out details you seem to be missing as you insist that the CIA has nothing to do with a movie that had a subplot about a CIA agent getting shot and ending up with the good guys just in time for him to explain the tactics of the bad guy ex-CIA agent who is trying to kill everyone I never loving said that, dude. I said there's no reason to believe that the CIA and Wakanda are necessarily allied at the end of the movie, not that the CIA is somehow divorced entirely from the story, an argument you seem to have wholly invented just now.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:24
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Ammanas posted:I didn't really care for this movie (although not outright bad, it was merely pedestrian); i think the discussion here overstates how much it had to say and how it said it but at any rate Would we say the same if it was moderated by heel Vince McMahon and it involved Brock Lesnar?
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Feb 21, 2018 05:24
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Roth posted:I know I'm not the most attentive person while watching movies due to my issues with staying focused on one thing for too long, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't a plot point? Doesn't Okoye go out of her way to say they should honor the transfer of power? Either she's being naive in the sense that she, like everyone else, is assuming that T'Challa is dead, or she is less attached to hereditary succession than she originally let on.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:24
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Ross is just a small ordinary person who doesn't want any trouble that ends up going on an unexpected journey, meeting new friends and finding in himself a courage he didn't know he had.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:30
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Ross is a lot less James Bond and a lot more befuddled outsider. He is clearly not operating on agenda and spends the vast part of the movie trying to catch up on people living on a higher level than he is.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:32
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Arist posted:I never loving said that, dude. I said there's no reason to believe that the CIA and Wakanda are necessarily allied at the end of the movie, not that the CIA is somehow divorced entirely from the story, an argument you seem to have wholly invented just now. It was an argument that started on the last page that you jumped into, so I assumed you were on the side of the people saying exactly that* But if I misinterpreted you I apologize. No need to get all worked up and poo poo. *For reference: YOLOsubmarine posted:...Either he’s meant to be emblematic of the CIA generally, and that’s a very generous view of the CIA, or he’s just a dude who happens to be a CIA agent and the movie has nothing to say about the CIA at all. CelticPredator posted:It’s the second one
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Feb 21, 2018 05:33
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Doesn't Okoye go out of her way to say they should honor the transfer of power? Either she's being naive in the sense that she, like everyone else, is assuming that T'Challa is dead, or she is less attached to hereditary succession than she originally let on. She's assuming T'Challa is dead. I mean, the dude got thrown off a high cliff after getting the poo poo beat out of him. I don't think anybody would be naive in assuming he's done for.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:33
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But the contention is that it's not known whether he's dead or not. Sensible thing to do would be to suspend the kingship rather than bowing to a guy you just met.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:37
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:But the contention is that it's not known whether he's dead or not. Sensible thing to do would be to suspend the kingship rather than bowing to a guy you just met. I mean, I guess? I'll admit, I was mostly just making a snarky nitpick.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:42
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Darth Brooks posted:Ross is a lot less James Bond and a lot more befuddled outsider. He is clearly not operating on agenda and spends the vast part of the movie trying to catch up on people living on a higher level than he is. This is actually a genuinely accurate plot summary of 3/4 of all James Bond movies.
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Feb 21, 2018 05:42
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Doesn't it seem odd that they move on fairly quickly?
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Feb 21, 2018 05:43
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