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HEY GUNS posted:by that point, we were The Wrong Kind Of Christian. exotic but faintly corrupt, etc. I know that's how the empire was seen by a lot of contemporary western europeans but in the modern day that's never stopped filmmakers from casting the whites, blondest, blue-eyesest of dudes to play all sorts of "exotic" historical figures. Maybe the "wrong" brand of Christianity would have been a bigger deal in 60s US than I assumed
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Mar 1, 2018 12:16
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peer posted:I know that's how the empire was seen by a lot of contemporary western europeans but in the modern day that's never stopped filmmakers from casting the whites, blondest, blue-eyesest of dudes to play all sorts of "exotic" historical figures. Maybe the "wrong" brand of Christianity would have been a bigger deal in 60s US than I assumed edit: like a professor of mine said about Last Samurai, "this is a great samurai movie, what the hell is Tom Cruise doing in it?" Maybe he could teach an olive-skinned chick what love is.
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Mar 1, 2018 12:34
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HEY GUNS posted:if you could tell the entire story through the eyes of some white dude viewpoint character who learns to grudgingly respect greeks by the third reel, there we go What's the name of that Venetian dude who led the defense of the city until he got injured? He's maybe white and dashing enough edit: Giovanni Giustiniani, and he was (obviously) Genoan rather than Venetian. Render his name as John Justin and there you go
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Mar 1, 2018 12:39
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HEY GUNS posted:
Reminds me of the joke about Greeks inventing sex, and then the Romans teaching it to women
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Mar 1, 2018 12:40
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peer posted:What's the name of that Venetian dude who led the defense of the city until he got injured? He's maybe white and dashing enough
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Mar 1, 2018 12:45
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Grumio posted:Reminds me of the joke about Greeks inventing sex, and then the Romans teaching it to women lol
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Mar 1, 2018 12:52
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there were europeans in the satsuma rebellion... just on the side of the army of mixed peasants and samurai who kicked the rear end of the aristocrats who lost the benefits of the caste system also they were french, and english speaking films cant have french people be militarily competent
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Mar 1, 2018 13:07
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Phobophilia posted:there were europeans in the satsuma rebellion... just on the side of the army of mixed peasants and samurai who kicked the rear end of the aristocrats who lost the benefits of the caste system Yeah the problem wasn't having a white dude in Japan during the war, the problems were it was an American and also the whole "we are traditional, no guns!" stuff which was entirely not true. Japan had guns for centuries by then, everyone used them. The side being portrayed there partly lost because they ran out of bullets.
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Mar 1, 2018 13:16
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peer posted:I know that's how the empire was seen by a lot of contemporary western europeans but in the modern day that's never stopped filmmakers from casting the whites, blondest, blue-eyesest of dudes to play all sorts of "exotic" historical figures. See John Wayne playing Genghis loving Khan.
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Mar 1, 2018 14:34
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peer posted:I googled this, and all I found was a Turkish 1951 production: why have there been so few (if any) epic films about the 1453 capture of Constantinople? There'a a more recent Turkish version: Fetih 1453. quote:There are numerous historical inaccuracies in the film. For instance, its portrayal of the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine XI, as a hedonist (he was mostly celibate). The city at the time was far from its magnificence (which was long gone, as it had been sacked by European crusaders in 1204). The Great Palace was not in use at the time. The film's portrayals of the Byzantines as a wealthy, powerful empire whose rulers lived lives of decadence and luxury at the time of the Conquest may be motivated for dramatic purposes, but they do not reflect the true situation in Constantinople in 1453. The Byzantines are also portrayed by Turkish actors and speak Turkish instead of Greek. quote:Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who watched a special advance screening, liked the film very much. Prior to its release, the film caused outrage in Greece, with many accusing it of being racist and obscuring historical facts, while the Greek Proto Thema newspaper called it "a conquest propaganda by the Turks". And the trailer (how many glaring inaccuracies can you spot?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sdtkAM-Ud0
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Mar 1, 2018 15:12
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HEY GUNS posted:by that point, we were The Wrong Kind Of Christian. exotic but faintly corrupt, etc. Definitely not blond. Byzantium/ERE was mostly dustbinned by history in the US. I think it gets mentioned like three times in my history classes. Once for Justinian, once for 1204, and once as an aside for 1453. But mostly because it meant that the spice trade was cutoff after the fall! Well, not cut off, but controlled by Muslims, which is no doubt infinitely worse.
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Mar 1, 2018 15:50
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There are a number of decent fantasy / historical fiction novels set in byzantium, at least. Guy Gavriel Kay's Sarantine Mosaic series is basically "fantasy Byzantium: the series". The only real "magical" elements are that he renames everything, puts two moons in the sky, and replaces Christianity with sun worship, Islam with lunar worship, and Judaism with star-worship.
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Mar 1, 2018 15:56
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Or if you're Mel Gibson, have them speak in Latin. With modern ecclesiastical pronunciation. When they probably should have been speaking Greek. 
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Mar 1, 2018 15:58
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Mika Waltari wrote a novel about the fall of the city. The English translation is titled, embarrassingly, The Dark Angel. It was the fifties okay?
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Mar 1, 2018 16:01
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I remember learning about Byzantium when I was like 9 and being all blown away that nobody had told me about this other Roman Empire which was comparably large and actually lasted like a thousand years longer than the Rome that everyone thinks is cool. And then I excitedly told some other kids about it and they told me to shut up nerd and they went back to playing with their ninja turtles.
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Mar 1, 2018 16:08
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are a number of decent fantasy / historical fiction novels set in byzantium, at least. Guy Gavriel Kay's Sarantine Mosaic series is basically "fantasy Byzantium: the series". The only real "magical" elements are that he renames everything, puts two moons in the sky, and replaces Christianity with sun worship, Islam with lunar worship, and Judaism with star-worship. So it's the same world as Lions of Al-Rassan? I'll have to check it out.
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Mar 1, 2018 16:42
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P-Mack posted:So it's the same world as Lions of Al-Rassan? I'll have to check it out. Yup, exactly. Most of his "fantasy historicals" are set at different points in that same universe. Lions of Al-Rassan is by far my favorite but the Sarantine books have a decent amount of appeal just because they can mine all the neat Byzantine history. It's basically Fantasy Justinian / Theodora
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Mar 1, 2018 16:48
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah the problem wasn't having a white dude in Japan during the war, the problems were it was an American and also the whole "we are traditional, no guns!" stuff which was entirely not true. Japan had guns for centuries by then, everyone used them. The side being portrayed there partly lost because they ran out of bullets. i find The Last Samurai interesting though, because in the wide world of white-guy-goes-native films it's really the only one that fully commits. cruise's character is totally broken at the beginning - american society has used him to commit atrocities and then spat him out. he integrates into the local culture in rural japan not because he is a curious, helpful neighbor, but a captive who cannot help but submit to their culture at first; and then finds he likes it better than what he grew up in. they fix him psychologically, and in the end the former imperialist tool gets riddled with bullet holes for the cause of anti-imperialism. they should have killed him off at that point though. ken watanabe's character is more the "main character" of the film, too - even though tom cruise is the viewpoint character, he's a sideline, a curiosity, in the overall plot. it's not a perfect film (it would be nice if the rebellion had had guns, yeah, even if they'd gone with "but we're almost out of bullets, so most of us will have to fight traditionally") but it's a lot better than you'd expect from hearing a plot outline Jazerus fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 1, 2018 |
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Mar 1, 2018 17:30
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CommonShore posted:I remember learning about Byzantium when I was like 9 and being all blown away that nobody had told me about this other Roman Empire which was comparably large and actually lasted like a thousand years longer than the Rome that everyone thinks is cool. And then I excitedly told some other kids about it and they told me to shut up nerd and they went back to playing with their ninja turtles. I started listening to the History of Byzantium and I have to say I'm disappointed in them so far. They keep bending over and paying tribute to literally anyone who sends a few raiders over the border: the Goths, the Bulgarians, the Huns, the Sasanids. Justinian actually wins a battle against the Persians then manages to screw it up and still gives them thousands of pounds of gold. If you do that you're just telling them you're a giant punching bag full of free money. I want them to grow a spine and go kick some rear end, maybe the upcoming invasion of Italy will give me something.
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Mar 1, 2018 17:30
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I started listening to the History of Byzantium and I have to say I'm disappointed in them so far. They keep bending over and paying tribute to literally anyone who sends a few raiders over the border: the Goths, the Bulgarians, the Huns, the Sasanids. Justinian actually wins a battle against the Persians then manages to screw it up and still gives them thousands of pounds of gold. If you do that you're just telling them you're a giant punching bag full of free money. I want them to grow a spine and go kick some rear end, maybe the upcoming invasion of Italy will give me something. The ERE had to deal with basically the entire tide of history wanting them destroyed. It’s an absolute miracle that the ERE didn’t fall in the 600s and they deserve a ton of credit for not only surviving by the skin of their teeth but within few hundred years recovering to become the dominate power in the Mediterranean.
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Mar 1, 2018 18:04
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At the point I'm at in the Roman History Podcast, the pre-split empire has already gotten into the patterns of the legions or praetorians wanting more money and either extorting the imperial government for it, or swapping one emperor for a more "generous" one. It's not much of a jump from that to just paying off the enemy directly, which a few emperors go and do anyways, to the shame of the legions. The legions are the middlemen who did not like getting skipped. It seems like at some point the military becomes more of a liability than anything else. Half the emperors can't control them, they eat up more money than the empire can afford, and they all lust to go out on campaigns of conquest that the empire as a whole no longer has an interest in.
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Mar 1, 2018 19:04
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I started listening to the History of Byzantium and I have to say I'm disappointed in them so far. They keep bending over and paying tribute to literally anyone who sends a few raiders over the border: the Goths, the Bulgarians, the Huns, the Sasanids. Justinian actually wins a battle against the Persians then manages to screw it up and still gives them thousands of pounds of gold. If you do that you're just telling them you're a giant punching bag full of free money. I want them to grow a spine and go kick some rear end, maybe the upcoming invasion of Italy will give me something. You've also got to remember that the empire was still reeling from the after-effects of the Crisis of the Third Century. While still a force in the east, it's power was greatly diminished due to in-fighting and civil war. Invasion from all sides and fewer natural boundaries than Imperium-era Rome had led to a greater need to nip these invader's raids in the bud. It was only just beginning to turn Rome's way again during the reign of Justinian. Power was being re-established in "lost" provinces throughout the Mediterranean. However, the Persians were making serious inroads in the east (mostly due to Justinian breaking truces/treaties). The Persian campaign against Rome was only stopped because a massive bubonic plague swept through both empires, stopping the Persian army in its tracks. If you've lost a significant portion of your population to disease, to the point where you can't really field vast armies anymore (let alone have a workforce to grow crops to feed and clothe them), you'll pay off your enemies to stop the conflict.
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Mar 1, 2018 19:09
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SlothfulCobra posted:and they all lust to go out on campaigns of conquest that the empire as a whole no longer has an interest in. Dunno about this bit necessarily. Soldiers generally wanted to stay home and have an easy life, all the glory would go to the Emperor not them.
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Mar 1, 2018 19:10
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah the problem wasn't having a white dude in Japan during the war, the problems were it was an American and also the whole "we are traditional, no guns!" stuff which was entirely not true. Japan had guns for centuries by then, everyone used them. The side being portrayed there partly lost because they ran out of bullets. I just find it funny that in the movie they go to the United States for soldiers rather than Germany. Then again, at this time the Japanese did hire an American to start an artillery college, but the whole enterprise fell apart when the Japanese discovered that the officer they hired spent all his time evangelizing for his brand of Protestantism rather than teaching the Japanese how to shoot cannons so they kicked him out. The 'no guns' thing was just incredibly stupid though seeing as how that idea died out around 300 years before the film takes place.
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Mar 1, 2018 20:00
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Siivola posted:Mika Waltari wrote a novel about the fall of the city. The English translation is titled, embarrassingly, The Dark Angel.
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Mar 1, 2018 21:06
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Ithle01 posted:I just find it funny that in the movie they go to the United States for soldiers rather than Germany. Then again, at this time the Japanese did hire an American to start an artillery college, but the whole enterprise fell apart when the Japanese discovered that the officer they hired spent all his time evangelizing for his brand of Protestantism rather than teaching the Japanese how to shoot cannons so they kicked him out. The 'no guns' thing was just incredibly stupid though seeing as how that idea died out around 300 years before the film takes place.
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Mar 1, 2018 21:08
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HEY GUNS posted:all modern mentions of that phrase are based on a very gay 19th century author. including the wh40k one 40k has literal Dark Angels running around and their boss is literally named Lionel Johnson with some space apostrophes. The only better 40k name is the Iron Hands and their fearless leader Ferrus Manus.
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Mar 1, 2018 21:44
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Nobunaga freaking loved tanegashima guns, he’s rad as hell. Post-Sengoku Japan had the highest concentration of firearms at that point in the entire planet. Then Hideyoshi used those guns and used them to rampage up and down the Korean peninsula, which set in motion the fall of the Ming.
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Mar 1, 2018 22:22
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HEY GUNS posted:early modern japanese people loving loved firearms man, and they made some of the prettiest matchlocks in the world I've only seen them as pictures, but those are some fancy firearms.
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Mar 1, 2018 22:59
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peer posted:I googled this, and all I found was a Turkish 1951 production: why have there been so few (if any) epic films about the 1453 capture of Constantinople? I mean, I can understand why nobody's making that kind of thing today, since white supremacists have thoroughly appropriated any section of history that could even remotely be characterised as "Christians v Muslims", but it seems exactly like the kind of thing Hollywood would have made sixty years ago. Because Western Europe and it's offshoots basically don't know or don't care about anything relating to the Orthodox Christian world. Rome fell around 500 AD, Greeks haven't done anything interesting since Alexander died, and there are only two types of Christian (Catholic and Protestant).
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Mar 2, 2018 00:06
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The Japanese military that launched the Imjin War was the largest, most well armed gunpowder army on Earth at the time. At least according to Samuel Hawley.
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Mar 2, 2018 02:18
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China's the big one for this but people always seem to forget that Japan was also more populous than pretty much every contemporaneous European kingdom aside from maybe France. Korea too for that matter. East Asia has a very conducive climate for having lots of dudes and the armies of the region often reflected that.sullat posted:Byzantium/ERE was mostly dustbinned by history in the US. I think it gets mentioned like three times in my history classes. Once for Justinian, once for 1204, and once as an aside for 1453. But mostly because it meant that the spice trade was cutoff after the fall! Well, not cut off, but controlled by Muslims, which is no doubt infinitely worse. I'm not sure it was even mentioned once in my history classes. OTOH Byzantium gets a ton of attention in art history these days.
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Mar 2, 2018 02:38
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Grape posted:Because Western Europe and it's offshoots basically don't know or don't care about anything relating to the Orthodox Christian world. which reminds me, I'd watch a miniseries about the Hussites
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Mar 2, 2018 02:53
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Grumio posted:Reminds me of the joke about Greeks inventing sex, and then the Romans teaching it to women It was good of Julius Caesar to reinforce these lessons later for the benefit of the wives of not only his friends, but his most hated enemies too! 
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Mar 2, 2018 03:27
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Koramei posted:China's the big one for this but people always seem to forget that Japan was also more populous than pretty much every contemporaneous European kingdom aside from maybe France. Korea too for that matter. East Asia has a very conducive climate for having lots of dudes and the armies of the region often reflected that. Until anime. Get your poo poo together Japan.
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Mar 2, 2018 03:50
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GreyjoyBastard posted:which reminds me, I'd watch a miniseries about the Hussites Kingdom Come has sparked an interest from me about this too!
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Mar 2, 2018 03:57
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sullat posted:Byzantium/ERE was mostly dustbinned by history in the US. I think it gets mentioned like three times in my history classes. Once for Justinian, once for 1204, and once as an aside for 1453. But mostly because it meant that the spice trade was cutoff after the fall! Well, not cut off, but controlled by Muslims, which is no doubt infinitely worse. That's because when Hollywood was getting started, the Ottoman Empire was still cool, and strong*, and our friend**. **no
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Mar 2, 2018 05:43
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HEY GUNS posted:all modern mentions of that phrase are based on a very gay 19th century author. including the wh40k one
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Mar 2, 2018 10:57
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Siivola posted:Mika Waltari wrote a novel about the fall of the city. The English translation is titled, embarrassingly, The Dark Angel. ????????????????????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBvdOQ_cy78
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Mar 2, 2018 11:41
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Siivola posted:A generational gap right here: I'm too young and uncultured to make that connection, it's all teen goths and 40k for me. Warhammer lore is a rich body of art surpassing Shakespeare and Homer in emotional depth and inventiveness and furthermore
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Mar 2, 2018 15:21
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