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Magil Zeal posted:Yeah, it happens. The fleet can also just get destroyed on the way by a space monster or something. One particular marauder empire loved to send fleets at me straight through the Ether Drake system. That didn't work out well for them. On the other hand one time I destroyed one on my border and the revenge fleet managed to take out a few starbases before I could catch it. Which is unfortunate since the "revenge" fleet seems to actually destroy starbases rather than just disable them like normal raiding parties. I don't think they had to travel from anywhere to get to my systems, though - they showed up in a system of mine that was right in the middle of my empire. I think they just spawned on one of my systems.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:02
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Libluini posted:This is interesting. So what happens when the first pirates show up? Will you be able to rebuild your fleet fast enough to stop them, or will they raze your empire to the ground? Don't leave us hanging! Which raises the question: If you refit your ships and take equipment off, do minerals get refunded?
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Mar 5, 2018 22:03
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Libluini posted:This is interesting. So what happens when the first pirates show up? Will you be able to rebuild your fleet fast enough to stop them, or will they raze your empire to the ground? Don't leave us hanging! It is 2209 I have 81 production of minerals per month after pop expenses. I did build my race to try to maximize my production of minerals industrious very strong inward perfecting lifeseeded fanatic pacifists. by getting rid of the fleet, I could actually afford to move off my orks (yes these are pacifist orkz) off the power plants and onto free mineral fields, so my first months mineral production was 33.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:12
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I've seen other people say that you want to refit your fleet to have zero equipment/lowest tech because it is remarkably faster to refit a fleet compared to building new ships. I can't understand this, wouldn't you need to build ships in the first place? Why the refitting to zero, if you can just refit to what you need at the moment anyway? Is it just to min-max some ship-upkeep? AtomikKrab posted:It is 2209 I have 81 production of minerals per month after pop expenses. Fascinating! I'm always going for simply collecting as many research-modifiers as I can. (This time around I even started with logic engines as a starting trait, just so my machines could get to science even faster. Now that I can robo-mod, I of course have specialist bots for everything, and my production in everything is slowly gearing up.)
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Mar 5, 2018 22:20
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Libluini posted:I can't understand this, wouldn't you need to build ships in the first place? Why the refitting to zero, if you can just refit to what you need at the moment anyway? Is it just to min-max some ship-upkeep? I am actually doing much better in terms of research production because I am simply outracing my ability to build poo poo, I have two engineering ships going all the time building, 3 starbases already and a fleet of 6 corvettes waiting for the pirates to show. I also play on .25 unity/research cause I like fast tech for everyone. Found the crystal asteroid field... next to the only empire I have found so far which is a hivemind, looks like I'll need to gear up to take that over. AtomikKrab fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 22:24
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Libluini posted:I can't understand this, wouldn't you need to build ships in the first place? Why the refitting to zero, if you can just refit to what you need at the moment anyway? Is it just to min-max some ship-upkeep? It's for lowering your fleet score so enemies think you are an easy target. If you're playing pacifist you often depend on other people declaring war on you, but them seeing you are more powerful tends to change their mind. Take your huge fleet, refit all the weapons out and call them a civilian reserve fleet giving you almost no declared official military. AI declares war on what they think is an easy target, you re-arm your ships and then make outrageous war demands as your pacifist empire goes on a purely defensive war on conquest.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:27
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I hope 2.0.3 is soon.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:36
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Ham Sandwiches posted:I don't get how Civ 5 was able to allocate pops to tiles just fine and you could even pick a focus that would do a decent job of allocating workers to prioritize that thing like food or production or research (it wasn't the best at minmaxing specialists for sure though) That's because of tile values and how they are upgraded, and the lack of a place to stack "city" upgrades. I hope you were ready for words because here it comes. Think about a Civ 5 tile. All common tiles (not tundra or desert) make food. Most of them make hammers. The most common tile, grassland, made enough food to feed a citizen, even with no bonuses or development. Critically, most tile upgrades improve the output of some resource from the tile, without reducing any other output. So if you have sheep on a plains hill, it is making food and hammers. If you built a sheep pen you would get more food, and you would still have the hammer. In this way Civ tiles were naturally disposed to yield a variety of resources, no matter how you built them out. Now think about a Stellaris tile. Most tiles only inherently make one kind of thing. Some don't make anything at all. Any tiles that provide science don't provide anything used in your day to day operation. If you have a mineral/energy tile and build a mine, the energy goes away. So unlike Civ tiles, Stellaris tiles are specialized by default. They only make one kind of thing. If you can combo multiple yields it's usually unity or science, but those can't bankrupt your empire. Food, minerals, and energy are the key operational resources, and they don't share land. This makes it a LOT easier for the AI to gently caress up. In Civ 5 there isn't anything the AI can do to make grassland not yield food, or to make hills unproductive. It cannot gently caress up a wheat farm or a gem mine, as there is only one thing to be done with those tiles. But the Stellaris AI can flub these things. It can build a mine on a food tile, if it decides the empire needs more minerals than food at the time, even if it's a poor decision in the long term. The lack of a "city square" equivalent in Stellaris is also crucial. Think about adding military upgrades to a city/planet in both games. In Civ 5 if you want a barracks or a wall, this goes inside the city and doesn't take up any tiles. But in Stellaris that fortress or military academy has to take up land that could otherwise be put to economic use. So if the Civ 5 AI builds a superfluous wall in a city that is not threatened... well it's no big deal. But if the Stellaris AI builds a useless planetary shield it is a waste of important land that could be making minerals, energy, or food instead. Finally, there is maintenance, and what happens when it can't be paid. In Civ 5 maintenance is only paid one way, coins. But coin is not primarily generated through raw tile yield, and running out of money doesn't harm your resource generation (it's just a science penalty). But in Stellaris running out of core resources damages your production of those same resources, easily causing a downward spiral. And that's why the Stellaris AI has a harder time than the Civ AI when it comes to economy.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:38
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Chomp8645 posted:
If you're looking at this as "the AI needs to build the planet from scratch and figure out which buildings to put on a tile" as part of the AI process sure. However, I'm talking about "Using the existing buildings and pops and yields, figure out the optimal distribution for X resource" as not too difficult To add buildings to the mix, one could placeholder what buildings you want placed on a planet eventually, just don't potentially have the resources or pop to build yet. So you could "build desired template" for the planet when you settle it where you can ignore tile blockers, buildings, and pops and define how you want buildings built, and the AI will get there. I don't think it's strictly necessary but if you're really concerned about the AI building reasonable buildings, that would do it. Either way, I think it's fine to have a quick and dirty "optimize existing pops for existing structures around a given priority" algorithm instead of the absolutely nothing we have now in terms of assigning pops automatically.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:46
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Your starting corvettes seem to have a combined mineral upkeep of 3.26 (at the starting starbase with cargo docks), and I didn't check the exact value of the energy upkeep but it should be half that. Pirates can spawn at 2210 at the earliest I believe, so that's ten years of savings, or 120*3.26=391.2 minerals and 195.6 energy. A starting corvette costs 145 minerals, so you come behind mineral-wise by about 44 minerals, and ahead by almost 200 energy. But you get the minerals earlier, so you might very well come ahead in minerals too by expanding faster etc. And the energy savings are considerable, an extra scientist, or two thirds of a private colony ship if you're playing a corporate dominion, or 2 tile blockers in your home world, or just working less power plants and more mines. I don't think the AI will ever attack you that early either, so that really seems like a good strategy. I'll have to try it out later.Sindai posted:They said they're going to keep adding stuff to the 2.0.2 beta until they're happy with it, especially in regards to war exhaustion and peace. You mean they'll release a new version of the beta? I hope they do one soon then, the tradition cost bug is, uh, pretty big.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:46
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Either way, I think it's fine to have a quick and dirty "optimize existing pops for existing structures around a given priority" algorithm instead of the absolutely nothing we have now in terms of assigning pops automatically. I want a way to tell my governors to put the master species on energy/science and all the slaves on minerals/food. Nothing worse than conquering a fresh planet packed to the brim with slaves so you have to manually deport/purge a bunch and then manually import citizens from the homeland. And if you don't it's just a 100 unrest hellhole full of angry slaves working in research labs.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:51
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Baronjutter posted:I'll still die on the hill that they need to ditch the tile system entirely. It's not fun for humans I like playing SimPlanet 
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Mar 5, 2018 22:52
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Chomp8645 posted:I want a way to tell my governors to put the master species on energy/science and all the slaves on minerals/food. Yeah I hit the same snag with robots, they get massive penalties to science / energy so the non robots go there, the robots go on minerals and food, and I click soooo many tiles making this happen please, computer, learn how to allocate the pops for me, I know we have the technology 
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Mar 5, 2018 22:54
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Chomp8645 posted:I want a way to tell my governors to put the master species on energy/science and all the slaves on minerals/food. Do you not have the land appropriation policy turned on? Besides, the slaves stop being unhappy once you nerve staple them. Nothing like conquering a bunch of planets and genemodding the inhabitants into delicious, nerve stapled livestock to speed up the growth of your main species. 9 food a tile is pretty hard to beat for a long time, and you don't need to pay energy for farm upkeep. e: Err, not that you want nerve stapled slaves working the labs, that's still a terrible idea. Unless they're livestock then the building doesn't matter.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:58
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Staltran posted:You mean they'll release a new version of the beta? I hope they do one soon then, the tradition cost bug is, uh, pretty big.
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Mar 5, 2018 22:59
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re: AI use glavius's ai mod, it makes the AI actually have rational planets, including sector AI Jazerus fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 23:03
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Staltran posted:Do you not have the land appropriation policy turned on? I do have land appropriation. But you know how it is, past the early game the planets get full. If you take another faction's capital world it's gonna be packed to the brim with slaves clogging up your power plants and labs. I usually just manually swap a couple pops with master species from the core worlds, set a couple more to purge, then hand it over to a sector governor.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:13
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The AutoBuild mod does a pretty good job of automating tile usage so I really don't think it's an unsolvable problem.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:14
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Staltran posted:Your starting corvettes seem to have a combined mineral upkeep of 3.26 (at the starting starbase with cargo docks), and I didn't check the exact value of the energy upkeep but it should be half that. Pirates can spawn at 2210 at the earliest I believe, so that's ten years of savings, or 120*3.26=391.2 minerals and 195.6 energy. A starting corvette costs 145 minerals, so you come behind mineral-wise by about 44 minerals, and ahead by almost 200 energy. But you get the minerals earlier, so you might very well come ahead in minerals too by expanding faster etc. And the energy savings are considerable, an extra scientist, or two thirds of a private colony ship if you're playing a corporate dominion, or 2 tile blockers in your home world, or just working less power plants and more mines. I don't think the AI will ever attack you that early either, so that really seems like a good strategy. I'll have to try it out later. That was my summary, it also allows you to switch your cargo docks to the trading hub and your first planet to producing energy from the starbase. (which as life seeded I did once I built shipyards in another system.) Crystal asteroids will only attack once you start mining right? so If I build up a bastion in that system before hand, it would attack them for me right?
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Mar 5, 2018 23:21
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Sindai posted:They said they're going to keep adding stuff to the 2.0.2 beta until they're happy with it, especially in regards to war exhaustion and peace. I can't really play until they give me my CBs back. 
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Mar 5, 2018 23:24
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Mar 5, 2018 23:25
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Your star control is threatened, better break out your precursor cruiser before you get wrecked by a construction ship.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:31
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They're smuggling data.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:32
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Seems like the quickest messy solution to AI resource problems is to just stop buildings from suppressing resources. I think I've even seen a mod floating around that does just that, though whether for that particular objective I don't know. Maybe they're smuggling news or movies from the wider galaxy in, by broadcasting it? Hell maybe they're just scrawling information on giant space billboards! e; ^ Dammit! 
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Mar 5, 2018 23:33
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You missed a spot.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:34
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Baronjutter posted:I'll still die on the hill that they need to ditch the tile system entirely. It's not fun for humans and the AI absolutely can't handle it in the slightest. There wouldn't be very much left to do in the game if they removed that. My whining earlier today about bugs was stupid, but there really does seem to be something that some of the thread can see that I can't in this game. I can't find anything to do other than expand or conquer, and the game seems to try to make it unfun to do either at arbitrary times. If the game just admitted it was a paint the map simulator and embraced that it'd probably be better than it currently is. It does make the things where they add new features that use, say, the +range modifier like the Target Uplink Computer when the modifier doesn't work frustrating too. I think I'm going to shelve the game--again--after this current game ends, until Paradox do something a bit more drastic. As it stands right now it seems to me like it could be great, but instead it's distressingly mediocre.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:47
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Ms Adequate posted:Maybe they're smuggling news or movies from the wider galaxy in, by broadcasting it? Hell maybe they're just scrawling information on giant space billboards! e; ^ Dammit!
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Mar 5, 2018 23:47
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Tradition costs seem fine to me. I'm even playing at 0.75 and it seems just right
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Mar 5, 2018 23:47
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GorfZaplen posted:Tradition costs seem fine to me. I'm even playing at 0.75 and it seems just right In 2.0.2? It's about scaling so if you're not expanding a lot you probably won't notice a difference.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:49
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AtomikKrab posted:Crystal asteroids will only attack once you start mining right? so If I build up a bastion in that system before hand, it would attack them for me right? If it has the range, which I'm pretty sure it won't (and the +50% range building wouldn't help since range modifiers are all broken). Unless it has an ion cannon, but if you had access to those you'd never bother building the bastion. The hives are only 1k each I think, and you can usually engage them one at a time. 20 corvettes should do fine with torpedoes or plasma, or maybe tier 3 lasers. Might need to heal up in between fights though, so the starbase would be helpful for that.
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Mar 5, 2018 23:54
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Baronjutter posted:I'll still die on the hill that they need to ditch the tile system entirely. It's not fun for humans and the AI absolutely can't handle it in the slightest. Pulling one out of a sector costs a bunch of influence (like before) and when you do the game "realifies" the planet, spawning it as if it had been built mostly optimally all along based on the average level of sector development., with the best possible placement from the pool of sector pops. Then the sector downscales its own average goodness accordingly. Same for AI empires. You conquer an individual planet, it instantiates into a relatively good planet. You conquer a whole empire, they become a blackbox sector you can pull from. Splicer fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Mar 5, 2018 |
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Mar 5, 2018 23:54
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Baronjutter posted:I'll still die on the hill that they need to ditch the tile system entirely. It's not fun for humans and the AI absolutely can't handle it in the slightest. the starving probably came first, which tanked their happiness, tanking their minerals and energy. afterward they spent all of their minerals trying to keep up on fleet which just put them deeper in the hole. the AI drive toward fleet parity over all is one of the things glavius's mod fixes, as well as its inability to escape starvation once it starts
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Mar 6, 2018 00:02
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Baronjutter posted:It's for lowering your fleet score so enemies think you are an easy target. If you're playing pacifist you often depend on other people declaring war on you, but them seeing you are more powerful tends to change their mind. Take your huge fleet, refit all the weapons out and call them a civilian reserve fleet giving you almost no declared official military. AI declares war on what they think is an easy target, you re-arm your ships and then make outrageous war demands as your pacifist empire goes on a purely defensive war on conquest. I like this image. "please pay no attention to the convenient Space Ikea pop-on gun turrets in the next hangar over"
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Mar 6, 2018 00:04
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I'd honestly be fine if they replaced the planet grid with a more civ style city grid. The civ model works fine, presents choices and allows for specialization, but it also allows for an AI that can manage not mismange itself into a hole. I like improving tiles and poo poo in civ games, there's nothing wrong with tiles as a concept, it's just that Stellaris' tile system evolved out of it being this complex adjacency puzzle that they realized was unworkable and not great but just got rid of the adjacency stuff and kept the bones. Make managing planets fun and interesting, but make it worth the effort, and most importantly make it something the AI can do reasonably well.
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Mar 6, 2018 00:09
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Jazerus posted:the starving probably came first, which tanked their happiness, tanking their minerals and energy. afterward they spent all of their minerals trying to keep up on fleet which just put them deeper in the hole. the AI drive toward fleet parity over all is one of the things glavius's mod fixes, as well as its inability to escape starvation once it starts Got a link? Is his mod ok with the beta? I generally avoid stellaris mods (specially after a major update) because the game is always getting patched so much and by using mods you've pretty much negated any potential bug reports or balance/technical feedback.
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Mar 6, 2018 00:11
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Baronjutter posted:I'd honestly be fine if they replaced the planet grid with a more civ style city grid. The civ model works fine, presents choices and allows for specialization, but it also allows for an AI that can manage not mismange itself into a hole. I like improving tiles and poo poo in civ games, there's nothing wrong with tiles as a concept, it's just that Stellaris' tile system evolved out of it being this complex adjacency puzzle that they realized was unworkable and not great but just got rid of the adjacency stuff and kept the bones. I'm also hoping it will make planet discovery more exiting. If I find a planet covered in +1 food tiles my only real thought is "that's going to make placing the coloniser a bitch". Alien pets, now those are exciting to find.
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Mar 6, 2018 00:17
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Baronjutter posted:Got a link? Is his mod ok with the beta? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1140543652 definitely okay with the beta for the most part. he fixes reported issues with the AI on almost a daily basis when the game is changing rapidly like it is now. you'll run into the occasional issue, but the AI still plays much better with his adjustments.
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Mar 6, 2018 00:19
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 +924 Naval Capacity from vassals  Fleet levies is kinda busted. I could pretty much deconstruct all my anchorages if I wasn't nervous about the War in Heaven about to happen which I know sometimes takes your vassals away for a while. Well, I think the War in Heaven is about to happen anyway, the Xenophile and Xenopobe FEs both woke up and rivaled each other, but it's been a few years and they haven't done anything else.
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Mar 6, 2018 00:38
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Why is there a fleet size cap for fucks sake Stellaris: caps on caps on caps on caps Like just imagine sitting there: "Every ship requires mineral upkeep!" "Every ship requires energy upkeep!" "Every ship requires command points to field" "Every ship requires build time + minerals up front" Hmmm but what if SOMEHOW the players manage to get around it and make a really big empire with a huge rear end navy all spread out...  put a limit on how many ships they can have too. Lol. Fuckem. Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 00:41
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Why is there a fleet size cap for fucks sake Military caps have been in pretty much every paradox game. Of all the highly abstracted systems that serve a gameplay purpose primarily they're some of the least bad. It represents your country's capacity to efficiently support X amount of ships in the field. Like in every paradox game you can of course go over this cap, but you'll pay higher upkeep. You're still paying upkeep on ships, it's not like they're free under the cap.
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Mar 6, 2018 00:45
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