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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:If you have to be winning to be having fun I dunno what to say. it's more like, oops the barbs spawned three horsemen on a turn and killed my second settler, now it's turn 35 and there's no possible way to catch up.
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Mar 13, 2018 17:31
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Multiplayer games stress me out because there's always a sense of urgency in my mind. I don't like playing with other people. I do enough of that at work.
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Mar 13, 2018 17:38
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You can also join the real time multiplayer we want to have, we can have 3 or 4 hour sessions.boar guy posted:
You can set turn timers. turboraton fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 17:43
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turboraton posted:You can also join the real time multiplayer we want to have, we can have 3 or 4 hour sessions. I'm interested in this, but can't realistically commit to an ongoing thing. Maybe if it was like once a month or something.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:27
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Tofu Injection posted:I'm interested in this, but can't realistically commit to an ongoing thing. Maybe if it was like once a month or something. Sounds great to me, any MP game is better than eternal discussion of warmongering and "i'm a story player" talk.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:32
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turboraton posted:Sounds great to me, any MP game is better than eternal discussion of warmongering and "i'm a story player" talk. Meanwhile I'm bored at people posting about multiplayer games or their play by plays of their games. Because sometimes different people like discussing different stuff.
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Mar 13, 2018 18:41
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Yeah we can be flexible if we have to (and given the dearth of interest, we may have to)
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Mar 13, 2018 18:42
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turboraton posted:You can set turn timers. at the midgame of a 4 person game the adaptive timer gives you twenty minutes per turn, or did last time i tried to play
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Mar 13, 2018 18:43
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Straight White Shark posted:That's legit and if that's what you want from the game, that's fine. My whole point is just that different people want different things from the AI and wanting the AI to roleplay more necessarily means making it perform worse in other regards. You're not describing an interesting obstacle, however. You can overcome the AI militarily, or through the loyalty mechanic. You can hinder its cultural or scientific progress using spies. Why is diplomacy not an interesting tool for overcoming an obstacle, outside of Civ VI's diplomacy being hella basic? Hell, once you realize the AI will always betray you given the chance and telegraphs it from miles away, it's no more of a challenge than the belligerent AI on any other border. If it was able to surprise you or at least keep you guessing, that'd be something. E: Does VI multiplayer not have simultaneous turns? That seems like a step back! Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 18:44
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:E: Does VI multiplayer not have simultaneous turns? That seems like a step back! It has Simultaneous turns by default, I play a lot of MP sessions with a friend vs AI and we always do Simultaneous because sequential turns would take forever per turn. I could see this getting very messy in a 6 player live game. Elias_Maluco posted:I might try someday, but Im just a SP guy. Videogames for me are a solitary experience This is kind of the exact scenario PYDT games are a good fit for, all the same. You don’t have to coordinate with players it’s just a ‘oh it’s my turn! Load map, do your turn, go from there next time’ sort of thing. Pretend we are just AIs that have awful response times! Yeah the first 20 moves suck, but it’s also a lot of fun going through a 20 turn war imo, but I enjoy a long term board game, and civ is satisfying that board game itch while only requiring 5-10 minutes a day of my time. YMMV, entirely, yes. Absolutely valid critique if you don’t enjoy this as a long-term basis, or bit by bit for sure.. For me it takes maybe a minute or two for your opening turns, so it isn’t a chore. I can load up a turn anytime I’m off work without needing to put what I’m doing on hold for a substantial period of time. Things do heat up nicely when you get past the land grab phase and people start revealing their true intentions since in-game diplomacy rules mean less without any AI present. I don’t mean to stoke the fire more, so to each their own, and apologies for continuing it, but the thread keeps making GBS threads on itself on a broken record status, again. I’ll drop it, but I really hope people at least try out a PYDT before writing it off. I’ll continue posting games, I understand it isn’t compatible for, reasons, to everyone, but I’m trying to positive post and get more people to play games with instead of just trashing on a non-perfect version of a video game. I like this dumb game, and it confuses me with how many of you do not, yet insist on posting about it. Come play with us and give it a chance! onesixtwo fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Mar 13, 2018 19:01
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:E: Does VI multiplayer not have simultaneous turns? That seems like a step back! It does, as far as I'm aware, as an option.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:06
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:E: Does VI multiplayer not have simultaneous turns? That seems like a step back! no it does but then it turns in to a contest of manual dexterity/network speed at the start of a turn to attack the other guy first, although you can turn on some war time time setting which means everyone else has to sit on their hands while you and the one you're fighting shuffle units around in a turnbased way
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Mar 13, 2018 19:07
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I always made do with a house rule that in the event of a war the declaring player would move first and the defending player would move afterwards. Everyone going at the same time is a clusterfuck that detracts from the strategy of the game, and game-enforced sequential turns takes forever since you can't even queue up production or look at research while you're waiting.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:39
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turboraton posted:Sounds great to me, any MP game is better than eternal discussion of warmongering and "i'm a story player" talk. K I added my availability, with the caveat of only being available once a month.
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Mar 13, 2018 19:45
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onesixtwo posted:Yeah the first 20 moves suck, but it’s also a lot of fun going through a 20 turn war imo, but I enjoy a long term board game, and civ is satisfying that board game itch while only requiring 5-10 minutes a day of my time. YMMV, entirely, yes. I can't imagine why I'd want to play a game of any kind for only 10 minutes. Why even bother with it? They exist to take up some time. Honestly, the idea totally baffles me!
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Mar 13, 2018 19:49
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Understandable but it's surprisingly popular. There are some 1400 people playing the web version of diplomacy (http://webdiplomacy.net/), most of the games there being a turn a day. (admittedly the games last only a few dozen turns at most, so they're a lot more accessible)
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Mar 13, 2018 20:00
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Taear posted:I can't imagine why I'd want to play a game of any kind for only 10 minutes. Why even bother with it? They exist to take up some time. Presumably you play more than one game in a session
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Mar 13, 2018 20:02
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:You're not describing an interesting obstacle, however. You can overcome the AI militarily, or through the loyalty mechanic. You can hinder its cultural or scientific progress using spies. Why is diplomacy not an interesting tool for overcoming an obstacle, outside of Civ VI's diplomacy being hella basic? Hell, once you realize the AI will always betray you given the chance and telegraphs it from miles away, it's no more of a challenge than the belligerent AI on any other border. If it was able to surprise you or at least keep you guessing, that'd be something. Most peoples' idea of diplomacy is "I leave you alone and you leave me alone." That's not an obstacle to navigate. I mean, yeah, it would be awesome if there were more diplomatic tools available. But if it's less expensive to ward off attacks with diplomacy than it is to defend yourself, you basically wind up making all military stuff completely optional. Civ 5's diplomacy got patched to the point that it was a little better than what we have in 6 and the end result was that it was a lot easier to neglect your military and just hit space bar until you won.
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Mar 13, 2018 20:37
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so I'm poking around into basic AI modding and it's even more opaque than Civ 5 but there's a series of giant obvious typos in a spot that seems like it could be extremely relevant to the AI's generally poor performance 
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Mar 13, 2018 21:32
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Straight White Shark posted:so I'm poking around into basic AI modding and it's even more opaque than Civ 5 Do tell
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Mar 13, 2018 21:41
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Wait there's a web version of diplomacy? That board game is cool.
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Mar 13, 2018 21:54
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Come on, this is why you should hire proper professionals instead of amateurs who need to wear bibs to avoid drooling into their keyboards. 
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Mar 13, 2018 21:56
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Do tell  This isn't just a case of it being spelled wrong throughout--elsewhere in this table there are other modifiers that reference YIELD_PRODUCTION etc. And they seem to work--the main reason I embarked on this experiment was that I noticed that AI civs with an agenda that gives them a preference for production or science or something useful tend to perform dramatically better than civs that do not. So the production-loving agenda for example gives the AI a favor weighting of 20 towards YIELD_PRODUCTION, which seems to be enough to get them to do noticeably better. Which means, as near as I can tell, the baseline for AI civs should have them prioritizing production bonuses by a larger factor than civs that have a specific agenda bias for it currently do, but they don't, because the AI is actually programmed to prioritize YEILD_PRODUCTION which isn't a thing.
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Mar 13, 2018 22:33
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Straight White Shark posted:Which means, as near as I can tell, the baseline for AI civs should have them prioritizing production bonuses by a larger factor than civs that have a specific agenda bias for it currently do, but they don't, because the AI is actually programmed to prioritize YEILD_PRODUCTION which isn't a thing.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:25
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For people who want to do live MP sessions but can only get in a few hours per week/month, maybe check out some of the scenarios? Those are meant to be finished in a single session, and some of them seem pretty interesting.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:56
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Wait, I just noticed my Venicen Arsenal isn't giving me a second unit. Wtf?
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Mar 14, 2018 04:09
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twistedmentat posted:Wait, I just noticed my Venicen Arsenal isn't giving me a second unit. Wtf? Never trust Venice
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Mar 14, 2018 04:10
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So as a quick and dirty experiment I fired up an autoplay mod and ran a game for 151 turns on the true start Earth map. Here are some choice graphs for an unmodded game:   And here's the same civs, same start map, with the YEILD preferences corrected:    So... yeah. Civ 6's AI is hobbled by a really dumb typo.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:21
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Straight White Shark posted:So as a quick and dirty experiment I fired up an autoplay mod and ran a game for 151 turns on the true start Earth map. Here are some choice graphs for an unmodded game: Hopefully this will put to rest the trolls insisting the AI is better than people think, but it does imply that with mods alone the AI can be substantially improved?
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Mar 14, 2018 04:31
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Well, baby steps. This is just scratching the surface of what mods can do... it's just that this is a change that's already supposed to be in the game, but never worked because of a goddamn typo. EDIT: Specifically, in case it's not clear what exactly is going on here, this is why the AI is so prone to spamming Holy Sites and faith improvements even if it's not really a competitor for religious victory. Fixing this doesn't correct any of the numerous other flaws with the AI, but if the AI correctly prioritizes production it has a much better chance of brute forcing its way to some kind of vague competitiveness. You can rarely see this in action when AI personalities line up just so and you get a runaway civ in action, which I assume is what people are referring to when they defend the AI, but 9 times out of 10 you wind up with paper tigers that are built of wall to wall Holy Sites and Entertainment Centers. the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 05:04
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Straight White Shark posted:
You call it a typo, but I see a guy who doesn't know how to spell.
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Mar 14, 2018 05:26
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Roland Jones posted:For people who want to do live MP sessions but can only get in a few hours per week/month, maybe check out some of the scenarios? Those are meant to be finished in a single session, and some of them seem pretty interesting. Do the scenarios support MP? That could be amazing if so - I would have loved to play Civ 5's Into The Renaissance in MP.
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Mar 14, 2018 09:11
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Also good detective work Shark  The incompetence knows no bounds.
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Mar 14, 2018 09:12
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Yeah scenarios work in MP, I have played 2 with my friends and they are ok. I do miss the Scramble for Africa one tho.
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Mar 14, 2018 09:15
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Did you alert firaxis?
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Mar 14, 2018 09:51
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That is amazing and potentially game-changing, literally. I remember something almost identical happened in Diablo2; a community called the LurkerLounge was poking about on why the AoE hit-detection seemed so bloody wonky. It seemed that at random times an aoe-check ability (anyhing from fireballs to DoT auras) would suddenly hit something comically far away. So they did extensive in-game testing. They got a player Paladin many points in a Frost-slowing aura, and set him hostile to other players. The paladin sat idle, while other players whould carefully toe around seeing where the edge of the aura would start/stop to slow, and drop a tiny pile of gold at the spot. It eventually traced out a shape, and thanks to the aura being quite large (several screens worth), it was clear what the shape was; a star. Instead of a circle as you'd expect. The Star's "points" where at a 45 degree offset from the game's internal grid, and asymptotically extended towards infinity. The star's closest points actually matched the printed in-game distance in meters. After a lot of brainstorming on why the bizarre shape, one guy casually walked in and pointed it out: when calculating a circle, you use the formula r^2 = (y^2 + x^2) (assuming centered on zero). However, if you typo the plus into a minus, ie r^2 = (x^2 - y^2), it traces a star... The game's hit detection for EVERY loving AOE DISTANCE CHECK was hosed due to a high school level error. This had been in for years and years and the odd behavior (if not it's cause) was well known. It was quietly fixed in the next patch, with no credit to the LurkerLounge. Which, this is where things get really funny, was a huge mistake since the bug had been in since literally the first build, and it totally hosed all sorts of game balance to have everyone (and -thing's) AoE nerfed hard, roughly by half empirically. Rather than quickly go trough and just incrase the AoE for everything (now with correct hit-calcs), Blizzard just reintroduced to the bug quietly in the next patch. The End.
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Mar 14, 2018 09:58
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I guess the point of that story is that this is more-than-plausibly the issue, and sure as gently caress StraitWhiteShark will get zero credit for it.
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Mar 14, 2018 09:59
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Serephina posted:I guess the point of that story is that this is more-than-plausibly the issue, and sure as gently caress StraitWhiteShark will get zero credit for it. but that's not his n... OHHHHHHHHH
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Mar 14, 2018 10:13
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Report it to the devs, and post it on the subreddit to get eyes on it.
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Mar 14, 2018 11:28
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And that's why it's important to have regular code reviews when making a game.
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