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Ignoring the argument over whether you can or should or whatever, I don't see how you could argue against the fact that 2 ranged shouldn't be able to burn through everything while the other 2 players just watch. That's just bad game design. I haven't run into that yet, but I haven't been playing while a whole lot of level 25-30 people.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:26
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AggressivelyStupid posted:Don't make me link you my DasAnfall profile. You should just poke the stormvermin in the head with your spear. to be fair to my understanding the hitbox for headstabbing with the spear is bizarrely higher then the cursor, so it's a little awkward
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Mar 16, 2018 14:30
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Higher difficulties the enemy get noticeably chunkier and it doesn’t really let two ranged dominate. Recruit and Veteran are becoming a bit unplayable as people refuse to move up to Champion though.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:31
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Fans posted:The caps fairly meaningless if you’re already one hitting pretty much everything at cap. It should really be capped to the max loot level for that tier.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:36
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Theorycrafting question: Let's say I have 2 characters, both L12, and 11 commendation chests. Character one: all item-level 200 gear Character two: weapons item-levels 50, other item-levels 200. My hypothetical goal: when I open chest #11, have the highest item-levels possible dropping. Does it matter which characters I open the first 10 on (in any combination or order, on characters 1/2)? I realize that opening everything on character ONE would be optimal, but, would it be equally optimal to open them randomly across each character? I don't know how item levels in chests are determined. There are multiple plausible options: (a) item level is based on highest item currently equipped on active character (b) item level is based on highest item currently in inventory of active character (c) item level is based on highest item ever owned by active character (d-f) same as (a-c), except "on all characters" instead of active hmm, so what is it: a,b,c,d,e, or f?
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Mar 16, 2018 14:38
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Internet Explorer posted:Ignoring the argument over whether you can or should or whatever, I don't see how you could argue against the fact that 2 ranged shouldn't be able to burn through everything while the other 2 players just watch. That's just bad game design. I haven't run into that yet, but I haven't been playing while a whole lot of level 25-30 people. Yeah, people shouldn't have to hold back just to make the game more fun for their team members, and the fact that that's where we're at is a design problem.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:39
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I got a fancy Falchion with a KF on the hilt, and Karl Franz on the blade
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Mar 16, 2018 14:45
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ImpactVector posted:I mean, it kind of is. With an even split, 200 HP would mean you've got an average of 100 gear and are level 10. Ah! Darn maybe it needs to be even lower then.
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Mar 16, 2018 14:48
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Yardbomb posted:Sometimes there really aren't right now. I liked the idea of ranged heavier classes some, but man has the implementation turned that view around since if you're not them, a lot of rounds turn into "Everything you're approaching dies before you swing" and you just kind of sit there while the 2 people on Sienna and dendrophile have fun. More thoughts on the BH ranged weapons and why the volleybow stands out so much on all careers, but even more so on BH. The brace can dump a lot of damage really quickly, but is ammo-limited. It hits too hard and has no penetration to really use on hordes, and the lack of penetration also means its harder to kill specials behind a wall of rats. The repeater is a weaker, faster volleybow with less penetration, making it significantly worse at killing hordes in return for slightly more damage against specials. Except you need to reload it after every alt-fire, whereas the volleybow can delete a special (at least) 5 times before having to reload. Yes, the reload is faster, but you can't kill several specials without having to reload. The crossbow is a slower, harder-hitting volleybow without the altfire. It also has to reload per shot, which means you lose the ability to kill multiple specials before having to reload. If you can't kill a special in an altfired volleybow, I suppose the crossbow might be better, but between having more shots per reload even with alt-fire, the ability to hit multiple targets at once, and a more forgiving firing pattern, its easy to see why the volleybow's altfire is better for specials. Plus, it still penetrates hordes on single-shot. (BH exacerbates all of that because it will crit on all three shots of the altfire, giving you a ton more damage and better ammo efficiency even without Scrounger, which just pushes it over the top). In summary, its easily the best all-around weapon. Its main weakness is its long reload time. If you're going to nerf it, I'd think that either decreasing its penetration, magazine size, or both would be the way to go. If you're buffing the others, I'd say increasing penetration on the Brace is the most obvious, but I'd also really like to see a huge decrease in weapon-switch times to/from the Brace. If I'm going to be trying to duck in/out of melee to recharge a ranged crit, that ranged crit better be drat good at clearing targets or come out fast. The volleybow does the former, having a weapon to do the latter would be nice and having a proper quickswitch weapon would at least be unique. If you decreased the volleybow penetration but kept the damage, you could up the penetration and altfire spread of the repeater to make the repeater better at horde-clearing and very close-range specials while decreasing its efficacy at range. The crossbow I don't really know how to fix: none of the slow, sniper weapons really seem to have much of a role in the current style of gameplay. Other ranged class thoughts: Beamstaff is going to get nerfed/fixed. Boltstaff might have been but its hard to tell with how good beamstaff is right now. Elf is...elf. If they're going to stay the way they are as far as ranged weapons go, I'd say Waystalker needs to basically have its melee weapon options cut down to almost nothing so at least they're giving something up for that ranged damage value. Ranger feels like a good ranged/support hybrid, but I think Ironbreaker needs to be locked to drakefire weapons and then to have them nerfed. I'm clearly biased and love the way BH plays in terms of encouraging both melee and ranged combat and think they should, in general, look at making it so that melee kills/damage buff ranged weaponry and vice versa. A Sienna class that can't vent normally but vents heat more quickly with melee hits/crits/kills, or one that builds up stacking ranged damage buffs with melee kills, seems obvious and fun. Battle Wizard could get a lot better if Tranquility activated on melee kill instead of "not taking damage for 8s". Elf only recovers ammo while in melee, etc. And that's my set of pointless thoughts on ranged class balance.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:00
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The drakefire pistols really are too good, they do everything the flamethrower can do but without having to charge up and still able to snipe specials and fry stormvermin in a couple hits. They should give them a tighter cone of fire and remove the explosive splash, let the drakegun be the crowd destroyer and the drakefire pistols the ranged one bad at horde killing.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:01
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they might be able to bring the drake pistols in line just by making them poo poo out a lot more heat per shot. half of the reason they're incredible is their infinite ammo and ability to be fired perpetually
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Mar 16, 2018 15:17
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Catpain Slack posted:I take it you found out the hard way? Oh yeah, I've been playing since vermintide 1 and never realised you could even equip it.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:19
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Cowcaster posted:they might be able to bring the drake pistols in line just by making them poo poo out a lot more heat per shot. half of the reason they're incredible is their infinite ammo and ability to be fired perpetually I only use drakefire pistols so I have something to do for most of the match, but yeah they're a bit op for a tank class. I wouldn't mind if they generated heat a bit faster. The secret to them is that their secondary is waaaay better than shield bash against squishy hordes.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:21
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Fans posted:Higher difficulties the enemy get noticeably chunkier and it doesn’t really let two ranged dominate. Recruit and Veteran are becoming a bit unplayable as people refuse to move up to Champion though. That's not really the player's fault though. The game directly incentivizes you to linger in Veteran for a long rear end time, because until your item level drops are 200~ you gain literally nothing from playing on Champion. Don't blame the players, blame Fatshark's dumb loot system.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:27
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Cowcaster posted:they might be able to bring the drake pistols in line just by making them poo poo out a lot more heat per shot. half of the reason they're incredible is their infinite ammo and ability to be fired perpetually That, and realistically they have a solid class balancing tool that they're not using at all with weapon restrictions. You can nerf Drakefire weapons as much as you want for class balance if you force Ironbreakers to use only them. Without that limitation, if you nerf the pistols too much, everyone just uses the grudgeraker. Use it. Its ok for some weapons to be better between careers if not everyone can use them. If the handmaiden is the only one who can use the spear, glaive, and two-handed sword, that might be fine if its considered as part of class balance. I don't think you should set it so that only one class can use a weapon and then buff that weapon significantly because then everyone who plays the class uses that weapon only, but having a few weapons might be ok if they're not too far out of balance from the others.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:That's not really the player's fault though. The game directly incentivizes you to linger in Veteran for a long rear end time, because until your item level drops are 200~ you gain literally nothing from playing on Champion. A bit more xp! Not really enough to make the risk worth it though true.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:30
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Fans posted:A bit more xp! Not really enough to make the risk worth it though true. Yeah if they just made it so that Champion "skipped you ahead" in item drop level, it would be fine. There's no reason to artificially slow things down like this, if you're ready for Champion you're ready for Champion.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:32
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Since we're in a complaining type of mood today, I am going to reiterate my loathing for the fact that tomes and grims are so hidden and that so many of them require jumping puzzles. There's just no way, unless you constantly play with 4 friends, that 4 players who didn't already know where they were would ever take the time to find them. And memorizing the locations either through other people showing you or having a 20 minute YouTube video playing on repeat with your eyelids held open with toothpicks is just not fun. I wish they were more naturally scattered about and you could choose to take them or not. Maybe have one or two per level protected by a boss or miniboss, whatever. But as they are today they're just no fun.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:38
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Goddamnit, what is it with people who play this game like it's a race? Had a guy join us mid-run last night who grabbed the second grim (which we were intentionally ignoring) and just bolted ahead. Didn't stop for anything. We followed him, chopping through whatever hordes we ran into, until the boss spawned and took him out while I was rezzing another teammate. I rezzed them both, tried aggroing the boss, then they both died again. I just decided to book it to the end (we were right there) and managed to be the only one to get to the end. I think 9/10 I'd rather have a bot. Next time I have to remember that we can vote kick.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:40
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Ravenfood posted:That, and realistically they have a solid class balancing tool that they're not using at all with weapon restrictions. You can nerf Drakefire weapons as much as you want for class balance if you force Ironbreakers to use only them. Without that limitation, if you nerf the pistols too much, everyone just uses the grudgeraker. Use it. Its ok for some weapons to be better between careers if not everyone can use them. If the handmaiden is the only one who can use the spear, glaive, and two-handed sword, that might be fine if its considered as part of class balance. I don't think you should set it so that only one class can use a weapon and then buff that weapon significantly because then everyone who plays the class uses that weapon only, but having a few weapons might be ok if they're not too far out of balance from the others. if i'm understanding you correctly, the ironbreaker is probably bardin's best in show class independent of the fact that it can use the drakefire pistols. saying "it's ok if this weapon is overpowered because you have to be this specific class to use it" only works as a balancing mechanism if the class has drawbacks to offset the weapon benefits. that's what balancing means.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:42
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i'd be totally fine with there being more class-based weapon restrictions, but only if each class still had good options.
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Mar 16, 2018 15:54
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drat, trying out the arming sword on Kruber...I think I prefer this to his 1H mace. Clears mobs a treat compared to the mace, and while the mace is clearly superior against armor, you can make do either with a Huntsman backdodge -> quick longbow shot, or learning to weave his combo into a HHL (the last light hit is an armor-piercing overhead).
toasterwarrior fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 16:31
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I’ve been leveling Bardin up so I can play as jumping axe man but I have to admit being an Iron Breaker and holding off an entire horde with my block in a doorway while they harmlessly bounce off me with my active on is amazing as all hell
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Mar 16, 2018 16:35
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Cowcaster posted:if i'm understanding you correctly, the ironbreaker is probably bardin's best in show class independent of the fact that it can use the drakefire pistols. saying "it's ok if this weapon is overpowered because you have to be this specific class to use it" only works as a balancing mechanism if the class has drawbacks to offset the weapon benefits. that's what balancing means. He was saying that then you could nerf the pistols, and lock the Ironbreakers ranged options to only allow the pistols or flamethrower. Because as is, if you nerf the pistols too far, every IB is just going to swap to using the grudgeraker which you can't nerf without affecting all the dwarf classes.
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Mar 16, 2018 16:36
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I've learned to love the 1-handed hammer on Slayer. Overhead that bonks armoured into the afterlife and a good horde clear, plus a good stamina reserve and mobility. I'm trying 2-handed axe as my backup because it's very Slayer, but I'm not sure what I want to use yet. it's me, the dawi bro on Champion that can't friendly fire you because he has no ranged
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Mar 16, 2018 16:39
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Captain Oblivious posted:That's not really the player's fault though. The game directly incentivizes you to linger in Veteran for a long rear end time, because until your item level drops are 200~ you gain literally nothing from playing on Champion. I'll agree with that, there should be quite a increase on item power when your opening a chest from the next difficulty and you haven't hit the cap on the previous one. It really forces you to stick in recruit and veteran long after you're sleepwalking through them until you hit the 100 and 200 itemcaps from the chests.
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Mar 16, 2018 16:39
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'd be totally fine with there being more class-based weapon restrictions, but only if each class still had good options. Yeah that kind of solution would require that a fair amount more weapons are added to the game, frankly.
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Mar 16, 2018 16:40
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Just gimme hats
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Mar 16, 2018 16:49
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The Gate posted:He was saying that then you could nerf the pistols, and lock the Ironbreakers ranged options to only allow the pistols or flamethrower. Because as is, if you nerf the pistols too far, every IB is just going to swap to using the grudgeraker which you can't nerf without affecting all the dwarf classes. maybe i'm still not getting it. what's wrong with the ironbreaker using the grudgeraker? won't the pistols still have infinite ammo and not require reloads, which the grudgeraker won't? wouldn't it be possible to nerf the pistols such that they function better at longer ranges than the grudgeraker but worse against crowds? or maybe vice versa? why would it be mandatory to nerf the grudgeraker if the pistols are bad?
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Mar 16, 2018 16:52
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I'm new to the game and joining friends who have been playing for a little while. So far they have picked the dwarf, the elf and the knight. Does it matter much if I pick Sienna or the witch hunter? I'm currently level 6 with Sienna because I assumed AoE would be useful in a horde game (it is) but was wondering if compositions matter much/at all. Should I swap or carry on roasting rats?
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Mar 16, 2018 17:06
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compositions are not really a thing in vermintide in the way you're thinking. some classes are more powerful/useful than others but you can just play what you want to play.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:10
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8-bit Miniboss posted:Sometimes the Slayer's Leap does weird things??? I had this happen to me on that map after the barn boss, going up towards that hill with the tree? A rat ogre spawned down the hill and did his giant bonk attack, and I went FLYING (as you usually do), but I didn't stop... just kept going. Ending up cresting wayyyyyy over the hill and finally landing. It felt pretty epic.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:15
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the closest you get to composition looks like this: each character/class combination has a specific role that they're best at in terms of gameplay. the 3 roles available to everyone is melee, ranged, and team support. certain characters will do certain things better, but with a few rare exceptions everyone does every role competently. precisely what is the best team distribution will depend on the map at hand and your friends' preferences and aptitudes - but two things are definitely sure: 1) this distribution largely does not matter during recruit difficulty, so don't worry about it until you are more comfortable with the game 2) you will eventually want to level basically everyone anyway, so don't even sweat who you're playing just continue murdering rat in any form and you are doing it right. e: i realized i should probably mention: the two classes in my mind when i typed the whole competency thing were sienna's team support class (battle wizard) and bardin's melee class (slayer). these two are currently just terrible and there's no reason to use them mechanically. you can't get around using battle wizard for the first few levels of Sienna, but Bardin's slayer class is a funhaver only thing for sure. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Mar 16, 2018 |
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Mar 16, 2018 17:18
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Cowcaster posted:maybe i'm still not getting it. what's wrong with the ironbreaker using the grudgeraker? won't the pistols still have infinite ammo and not require reloads, which the grudgeraker won't? wouldn't it be possible to nerf the pistols such that they function better at longer ranges than the grudgeraker but worse against crowds? or maybe vice versa? why would it be mandatory to nerf the grudgeraker if the pistols are bad? I'm not saying that its a specific class-balancing tool that should be done in the Drakefire's case. I was saying that broadly, its a class-balancing tool that Fatshark is choosing not to use. Bardin is really the only one that has any major restrictions that I can think of. By adding careers, they made it so that not only do they have to balance having all 5 classes be viable/fun, but within that individual class, you'd want all 3 careers to both play differently and be relatively balanced with each other. Weapon restrictions are one way to do that, especially if some weapons have very different effectiveness between classes due to talent interaction.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:30
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i wasn't talking about nerfing the drakefire pistols because the iron breaker is too powerful, i was talking about nerfing the drakefire pistols because the drakefire pistols are too powerful. if you want to nerf the ironbreaker there's a lot of things you could adjust about the ironbreaker that aren't the drakefire pistols.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:32
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It's boring as gently caress to be on a team where your Ironbreaker never uses anything but Drakefires and accordingly, is way less useful but racks up lots of green circles. Just like V1, you have to beat these people into submission until they learn to block.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:35
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I really wish that the Swift Slaying buff showed as a pop-up; sometimes it's hard to keep track of whether you're getting crits or not in the middle of a horde, and knowing when you can speed up the pace of charging your swings is kinda important. On a related note: the Twin Axes are pretty much there for cutting down strays, right? They won't lock down enough of a horde, but they seem pretty good for quickly killing enemies on the flanks and whatnot.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:35
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"A Blightstormer! I'll show him a foul wind...from my arse!" VT2 GotY
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Mar 16, 2018 17:37
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It's boring as gently caress to be on a team where your Ironbreaker never uses anything but Drakefires and accordingly, is way less useful but racks up lots of green circles. I was under the impression that drakefires sucked except at point blank range. There most useful ranged for ironbreaker would be handgun/crossbow, imo
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Mar 16, 2018 17:43
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Mr. Pickles posted:I was under the impression that drakefires sucked except at point blank range. There most useful ranged for ironbreaker would be handgun/crossbow, imo Once you get used to the drop and spread they are good at mid range, too. It's not like you're harshly penalized if you miss. Just keep firing.
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Mar 16, 2018 17:49
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