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PMush Perfect posted:It makes it interesting, but pretty much unusable. It's kinda funny how it got elevated to this point though. The ponderousness was just added because "we still haven't implemented permabuffs for some reason, and it is optimal but tedious to recast this buff all the time while exploring." The downside was just added so keeping it up 24/7 would be "non-optimal" and Hypothetical Optimal Man wouldn't annoy himself to death with it. But somehow that's now jumped to not being allowed to move at all.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:09
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:"Big defense boost until you move" doesn't sound unusable to me. But it definitely needs bigger numbers in that case.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:11
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Well they can always pick up a scale male or swamp dragon armor or something and train their armor skill up.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:12
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Patashu posted:Meanwhile: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f559e6e12c67e5dcd6b6acacd18fa4f2b944bb23 "Make Ozocubu's Armour expire immediately on movement" I'm playing a DrIE on trunk at the moment  But like someone said, lightning spire should be next on the list of nerfs, it's just ridiculously good right now.
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Mar 23, 2018 07:25
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weirdly chilly pussy posted:But like someone said, lightning spire should be next on the list of nerfs, it's just ridiculously good right now. What would be a good nerf, anyway? Unless you stop being able to control where it's placed, the main benefit of using it is going to stay there. Unless you're of the 'increase its spell level so the opportunity cost is greater' approach. Patashu fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 08:04
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Is is safe to leave stuff on the floor in Slime 5 now, in .21?
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Mar 23, 2018 08:07
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no but seriously we need to jack the qol changes they made to the spellbook system in trunk, if its anything like what ive heard thought exercise: what would make a good earth/ice spell?
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Mar 23, 2018 08:18
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Patashu posted:What would be a good nerf, anyway? Unless you stop being able to control where it's placed, the main benefit of using it is going to stay there. Unless you're of the 'increase its spell level so the opportunity cost is greater' approach. Spellpower could be capped at a lower point, reducing max HD of the spire. Monster spires are HD 3, with the spell you can now get up to HD 10. Positioning could be limited to be adjacent to the player and duration could be made dependent on spellpower.
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Mar 23, 2018 08:55
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I think this Ozo's is still pretty good. You can cast it when you're in a good position to fight, and then run away with no speed penalty if you need to. I don't think it really solves the core issues with the spell though.
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Mar 23, 2018 09:55
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We could still make it a permabuff that only gives a bonus if player doesn't (voluntarily) move for a couple turns and removes the bonus if they do, I'd not mind if it was nerfed in the sense that it doesn't nothing if you're running and getting your rear end whacked along the way.
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Mar 23, 2018 10:32
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what if it's a 3x3 pseudocloud effect centered on you
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Mar 23, 2018 12:03
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I sailed through 10 runes with almost no trouble, died literally in the first room I set foot in in Pan https://pastebin.com/brypyEJB
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Mar 23, 2018 12:05
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IronicDongz posted:It does, because the god only starts giving you advantages once you are past the hardest parts of the game and the advantages it gives you are weaker than things many other gods give you. Late but how dare you suggest Chei is anything but the best god edit: I just realized replying to this days late is chei as gently caress
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Mar 23, 2018 12:14
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icantfindaname posted:I sailed through 10 runes with almost no trouble, died literally in the first room I set foot in in Pan Your first warning should have been seeing that many smoke demons in positions that can see you but you can't do anything about it. Your second warning should have been getting smote multiple times in a single move. That rune vault I tend to skip because it's overly dangerous.
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Mar 23, 2018 12:43
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I didn’t realize they can smite you from behind glass walls In fact, the wiki says they can’t smite you from behind glass walls. There were two hell sentinels spawne in the room and they did most of the damage I think, plus something casting torment. I should have just teleported but didnt icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 13:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think this Ozo's is still pretty good. You can cast it when you're in a good position to fight, and then run away with no speed penalty if you need to. I don't think it really solves the core issues with the spell though. What do you think are the core issues with the spell? I think a strong defensive tool for light armor hybrids is really important, and I think a more situational ozo’s solves that pretty well. I agree a buff that just gives you a fuckton of armor for no downside isn’t good design, since you then you don’t really play differently from a character that wears armor. Teal posted:We could still make it a permabuff that only gives a bonus if player doesn't (voluntarily) move for a couple turns and removes the bonus if they do, I'd not mind if it was nerfed in the sense that it doesn't nothing if you're running and getting your rear end whacked along the way. I think it’s better to avoid just making everything a permabuff. In this case what does making the spell a permabuff do? It’s not something you’re constantly refreshing anyway, and making the player cast it or refresh it adds depth to the spell. Tollymain posted:what if it's a 3x3 pseudocloud effect centered on you I like that idea a lot. That way you get some ability to reposition so it works better with spectral weapon or summons. In fact, it could also perhaps work on your allies, which gives it a nice buff in return for making its use more restrictive.
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Mar 23, 2018 15:10
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I think the tradeoff between spell success and AC on armour is interesting. Heavy armour gives you better AC (particularly once enchanted) but you'll have to invest more XP to make your spells castable or use ring slots to counteract it. There's a lot of different armour types in the game, and you could select one based on how much spell success you're prepared to sacrifice for better defense. Ozo's almost completely removes that potentially interesting decision from the game. By having a hard breakpoint at 4 ER the four lightest armours (Robes, Leather Armour, Steam Dragon Scales, Troll Leather Armour) effectively give you more AC than all but the heaviest armours. So it's easier to cast spells in them and they give you better defenses. This is exacerbated by the fact that Ozo's is extremely powerful and at a low enough level that any character who's casting spells can easily learn it. Stuff like Acid Dragon Scales may as well not exist because its ER is one point too high.
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Mar 23, 2018 15:58
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now we can totally 'solve' the situation by having it so it's entirely useless if you want to ever move, a thing that players will be doing all the time
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Mar 23, 2018 16:06
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I don't understand the ideology that you should make sure that whatever you implement isn't per chance too strong in a game where half the time you're literally deciding between going with the easy and the fun; lets remove Trog he's making other gods useless?
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Mar 23, 2018 16:18
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I suspect this change actually makes the spell better. Previously if you cast Ozo's then realized you had to bail it made it harder for you to escape. Now there's no penalty for doing that, you just don't have the buff while fleeing. If you position yourself well before casting Ozo's you shouldn't really have to move while you're still actively trying to kill things. To be clear I think it's a bad change (we don't need more incentives to lure everything back to a safe spot and it doesn't solve the problem I outlined above) but the spell is still extremely strong.
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Mar 23, 2018 16:19
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Teal posted:I don't understand the ideology that you should make sure that whatever you implement isn't per chance too strong in a game where half the time you're literally deciding between going with the easy and the fun; lets remove Trog he's making other gods useless? I want reasonable balance in my silly dungeon crawling game 
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Mar 23, 2018 16:32
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icantfindaname posted:I didn’t realize they can smite you from behind glass walls Oh they changed that vault to glass walls? I seem to recall it being iron grates previously because it was explicitly about you being exposed to the smoke demons sitting inside the "walls" of the vault and being unable, short of LRD and Dig, to get at them until you marched all the way through to the other side. EDIT: The vault appears to have iron grates sprinkled along.. code:Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 23, 2018 |
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Mar 23, 2018 17:10
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Patashu posted:What would be a good nerf, anyway? Unless you stop being able to control where it's placed, the main benefit of using it is going to stay there. Unless you're of the 'increase its spell level so the opportunity cost is greater' approach. You could make the spire instantly die to melee attacks. So it can do its job as a damage-dealing turret effectively, and can even sometimes be used to block line of fire on nasty spells, but isn't a long-term pathing blocker when monsters are trying to get through it.
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Mar 23, 2018 17:48
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oh cool we just made felids and octopodes harder for no reason so that heavy armor becomes even more dominant for normal characters. 
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Mar 23, 2018 17:56
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Zore posted:oh cool we just made felids and octopodes harder for no reason so that heavy armor becomes even more dominant for normal characters. everything shall be fed into the maw of Hypothetical Optimal Man
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Mar 23, 2018 17:59
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I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of making Ozo's higher level and then putting in a few similar spells. The idea being decent AC is practically necessary so we should put multiple paths to it, but they should all require moderate investment
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Mar 23, 2018 18:03
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Patashu posted:What would be a good nerf, anyway? Unless you stop being able to control where it's placed, the main benefit of using it is going to stay there. Unless you're of the 'increase its spell level so the opportunity cost is greater' approach. Placing it wherever you like wouldn't be quite as strong if it would quickly die basically every time when placed in front of big scary monsters like fire giants(currently, it does not). You could still immediately replace it until you ran out of mana, which currently would probably be enough to kill the fire giant(and probably whatever else was behind it... killed packs of very ugly things and other depths monsters in corridors this way last run). But if it died every turn it was resummoned in front of a big lategame monster, maybe this wouldn't be viable at all. cheetah7071 posted:The idea being decent AC is practically necessary so we should put multiple paths to it, but they should all require moderate investment I think the ozo's nerf is ok. There are plenty of times when you're standing still in fights and it introduces a neat bit of decision making in the moment of toughing it out when something scary happens to keep your AC vs. fleeing. I wouldn't mind if the AC boost got a bit bigger though.
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Mar 23, 2018 19:54
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Wait so gnolls can't use Ashen's skill transfer? ...I mean between all the apts it would be probably hella broke... ...but I'm still disappointed
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Mar 23, 2018 21:45
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IronicDongz posted:by the way when I mentioned earlier that lightning spire is insane I wasn't kidding Yup, spire is one of the best spells in the game. Most summon abilities don't give you any control over positioning, and you can use it to block all sorts of projectiles (due to it having little to no EV), the damage to MP ratio is really high, electricity is a rare resist, etc etc. Ozocubus creating an AoE that applies the armor buff to you/your allies as long as you remaing in that AoE sounds a lot more fun and interesting than a stationary thing.
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Mar 24, 2018 10:56
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Or, even more interestingly, it could create an AoE on the ground that applies the armor buff to everything. So you don't just have to worry about losing it if you move, you also have to worry about defending the area to keep enemies out.
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Mar 24, 2018 17:48
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Or, even more interestingly, it could create an AoE on the ground that applies the armor buff to everything. So you don't just have to worry about losing it if you move, you also have to worry about defending the area to keep enemies out. *Everything that doesn't have high AC to begin with so it wouldn't be that brutal of a nerf because many generic enemies with actual AC would just be too fat to make use of it
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Mar 24, 2018 19:08
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hey i wasnt kidding we absolutely should be jacking the new spell library feature from trunk
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Mar 25, 2018 01:25
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Is the glyph clutter for clouds and poo poo really confusing on the ASCII version these days?
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Mar 25, 2018 01:50
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Tollymain posted:hey i wasnt kidding we absolutely should be jacking the new spell library feature from trunk
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Mar 25, 2018 02:01
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resistentialism posted:Is the glyph clutter for clouds and poo poo really confusing on the ASCII version these days? Not really, it's one glyph of different colours. None of them you want to stand around in unless you've gone Qazlal and then you don't care.
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Mar 25, 2018 02:07
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Elephant Parade posted:have you considered describing the feature, or at least linking it? I'm too lazy to go search for it, and I doubt I'm the only one It means trog can't burn books anymore but trog can take that hit and it's a really, really good quality of life change to have no inventory/backtracking hassle from books anymore. Awesome on lategame/postgame Sif Muna characters who have gotten lots of book gifts to be able to hit the 'M' key and choose from a list of basically(or literally) every spell in the game to memorize, instead of making a book stash or searching for spells and backtracking to wherever spellbooks randomly dropped with them.
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Mar 25, 2018 02:43
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Tollymain posted:hey i wasnt kidding we absolutely should be jacking the new spell library feature from trunk I'll be putting it and other major commits from trunk together with the feature request/pull request survey. One issue I will point out with it is that Trog book burning and book amnesia goes away temporarily if it is implemented (until I or someone else figures out what's needed to modify the library system to put it back in). Edit: Last chance if you want to vote in the feature design detail survey: https://goo.gl/forms/deXD0IDF1sof2h3q2 I'll probably close it sometime tomorrow if I don't see any more votes. Collating it may take a bit of time as I will be moving in the near future. If I manage to have time available, I'll try to get the FR/PR/commit survey ready tomorrow to push out so that there won't be any dead time during the period where I won't have Internet access. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Mar 25, 2018 |
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Mar 25, 2018 04:23
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honestly i think book amnesia/burning is a fair sacrifice for better quality of life
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Mar 25, 2018 04:28
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Floodkiller posted:I'll be putting it and other major commits from trunk together with the feature request/pull request survey. One issue I will point out with it is that Trog book burning and book amnesia goes away temporarily if it is implemented (until I or someone else figures out what's needed to modify the library system to put it back in). For Trog Book Burning you just need to revert these commits: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4c6852c4bb597227a8a309eb79c96e8c8369ab76 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f64ed86620b3956e8cba2286a28d46b4fd1c8580 https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d1b754485ab9ba3113f1e40faf3840415e5c8db1 (maybe) Though it won't be very useful without being able to pick the books up, I'm not sure if special casing it back in is worth the effort for an already OP god. For book amnesia, it would probably be better to replace it with a different system entirely, like a 1 in N chance of making a scroll of amnesia fall out whenever you read a book, since as far as I know book
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Mar 25, 2018 04:30
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book what
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Mar 25, 2018 04:31
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