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a theoretical pure and non-crony version of capitalism or a market has never existed
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Apr 3, 2018 16:57
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Apr 3, 2018 16:59
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Shear Modulus posted:a theoretical pure and non-crony version of capitalism or a market has never existed This is why it's a useless phrase. It implies that there has been a "better" form of capitalism in which capitalists haven't used their money and influence to suit their own interests politically and otherwise. It's just capitalism. MeatwadIsGod has issued a correction as of 17:24 on Apr 3, 2018 |
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Apr 3, 2018 17:17
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Crony Capitalism is worth defining on it's own as a subset of capitalism because it demonstrates a failure in government systems that are supposed to be "fair." I.e. If a government needs to build highways, those contracts are supposed to be available to the public at large to bid on and potentially secure on an even playing field for all bidders. Crony Capitalism ensures that is never the case. It's a much more insidious and harmful application of capitalism. It's definitely not more insidious than the "pure and noble capitalism" you're imagining, and it's arguably less harmful since the purpose of those bids is to go with the one that's going to be the cheapest. If we did things they way "they're supposed to be" we'd end up with a bunch of roads built by contractors who just pour asphalt in a straight(-ish) line and run a steamroller over it.
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Apr 3, 2018 17:25
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Teal posted:Couldn't you define "pure capitalism" as always going with the choice that can be justified on basis of pure economical analysis of the situation ( something like deal {A involving resources i,j,k and capital exchenge x} versus deal {B involving l,m,n and capital exchange y}, chose one) no the idea that you can break individual human behavior down into clean formulas like that is a lie, one that's been sold to you by economists to convince you that the capitalists just have to oppress you because it's economically optimal there is no "pure formula" in the first place
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Apr 3, 2018 17:34
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MizPiz posted:It's definitely not more insidious than the "pure and noble capitalism" you're imagining, and it's arguably less harmful since the purpose of those bids is to go with the one that's going to be the cheapest. If we did things they way "they're supposed to be" we'd end up with a bunch of roads built by contractors who just pour asphalt in a straight(-ish) line and run a steamroller over it. This doesn't necessarily need to be true. Also where is this "pure and noble" capitalism idea coming from? All capitalism is bad, but not all capitalism is equally bad. In fact if you want a way to completely neuter any potential improvement to anything ever, you can just boil it all down to "it's capitalism, man" and resign yourself to join the history of every leftist, accomplishing nothing.
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Apr 3, 2018 17:40
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Crony capitalism is a good phrase because it immediately alerts you to the fact the user has no idea what the gently caress they're talking about and can be ignored if you're not in the mood to engage for educational purposes
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Apr 3, 2018 18:50
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Any differences in cronyism under capitalist systems are matters of degree and not of kind.
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Apr 3, 2018 18:52
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Cerebral Bore posted:Any differences in cronyism under capitalist systems are matters of degree and not of kind. yep, it's a matter of the non-cronies not yet being run out of business by the cronies.
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Apr 3, 2018 18:58
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Wheeee posted:Crony capitalism is a good phrase because it immediately alerts you to the fact the user has no idea what the gently caress they're talking about and can be ignored if you're not in the mood to engage for educational purposes Sorry Comrade, being triggered is a guillotinable offense.
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Apr 3, 2018 19:03
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Wheeee posted:Crony capitalism is a good phrase because it immediately alerts you to the fact the user has no idea what the gently caress they're talking about and can be ignored if you're not in the mood to engage for educational purposes i've literally only ever heard it irl from libertarians
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Apr 3, 2018 19:08
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Yea it only exists as a semantic smokescreen, there is absolutely no legitimacy in the phrase or the underlying idea which it attempts to communicate if you can't grasp that you're probably a temporarily embarrassed liberal who'll eventually "grow out" of Leftist thought since you never actually comprehended it beyond the most surface level criticisms of capitalism
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Apr 3, 2018 19:22
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Don't let your ideological enemies define the language you use. Namaste
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Apr 3, 2018 19:24
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To hell with Crony-Capitalism when do we get to Kony-Capitalism??
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Apr 3, 2018 19:26
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Don't let your ideological enemies define the language you use. This might work better if the language you were using wasn't an intentional weasel word designed by your ideological enemies
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Apr 3, 2018 19:27
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Wheeee posted:Yea it only exists as a semantic smokescreen, there is absolutely no legitimacy in the phrase or the underlying idea which it attempts to communicate 
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Apr 3, 2018 19:34
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Dreddout posted:This might work better if the language you were using wasn't an intentional weasel word designed by your ideological enemies I'm using it to define the specific type of capitalism that occurs between nominally elected officials and capitalists, I do not give a single gently caress what word my ideological enemies use, and neither should you.
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Apr 3, 2018 19:35
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I do not give a single gently caress what word my ideological enemies use, and neither should you. It's a confused and obscurity term, hth
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Apr 3, 2018 19:39
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I'm using it to define the specific type of capitalism that occurs between nominally elected officials and capitalists, I do not give a single gently caress what word my ideological enemies use, and neither should you. Yes but in this instance the purpose of the conversation is to communicate, and you used a term which is associated anarcho feudalist peasants. Hence the confusion. Digging your heels in doesn't change that.
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Apr 3, 2018 19:43
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Southpaugh posted:Yes but in this instance the purpose of the conversation is to communicate, and you used a term which is associated anarcho feudalist peasants. Hence the confusion. Digging your heels in doesn't change that. Fine I'll drop it, I just think this definition perfectly describes the housing situation in New York City and doesn't repudiate the larger capitalist system at all. quote:Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism.
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Apr 3, 2018 19:47
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Fine I'll drop it, I just think this definition perfectly describes the housing situation in New York City and doesn't repudiate the larger capitalist system at all. Haha, I'll fix that for you. quote:Capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism.
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Apr 3, 2018 19:52
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yeah, crony capitalism is just capitalism, it's by design. well, technically it isn't by design, but any capitalism with the human condition involved will evolve into plutocracy faster than you can say regulation
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Apr 3, 2018 20:01
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its just capitalism. if youre a capital-holder then you want to make the most lucrative investments you can and there arent many higher-returning investments than bribing the people who write the laws
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Apr 3, 2018 20:03
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Like, what do you think capitalism even is? it has nothing to do with markets or trading
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Apr 3, 2018 20:10
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Shear Modulus posted:its just capitalism. if youre a capital-holder then you want to make the most lucrative investments you can and there arent many higher-returning investments than bribing the people who write the laws this is true, but it's basically "this is how rent seeking/corruption works under capitalism" the same behavior has occurred (to a greater or lesser degree) under every attempt at an organized socialist economy, and would occur under any theoretical system I don't think its bad to have shorthand for "this particular capitalist regime is overtaken by rent-seeking/corruption"
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Apr 3, 2018 20:12
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Wheeee posted:Like, what do you think capitalism even is? most people think capitalism = the grocery store and communism = only one type of shampoo at the dispensary
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Apr 3, 2018 20:14
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"Jokes on you I'm just as dumb as a libertarian  " isn't a particularly compelling argument
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Apr 3, 2018 20:19
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"real" capitalism is what ancaps dream about, but they always conveniently forget people never ever play nice
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Apr 3, 2018 20:21
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Coolness Averted posted:rent control and blocking developments based on tier of housing, so instead of "No you can't build a 5 story building," it's "No, you can't build 5 stories of luxury condos, but 5 stories of median rent is okay." Of course that would require a city to say 'no' to higher tax revenue from the luxury condo building.
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Apr 3, 2018 20:27
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LGD posted:this is true, but it's basically "this is how rent seeking/corruption works under capitalism" rent-seeking/corruption is inherent to capitalism, because the people who write the laws and enforce the regulations are also active participants in the capitalist system. the government exists to benefit businesses and protect the rich, who also run the government the idea that the government is some immune hands-off thing that doesn't participate in the economy is a ridiculous illusion
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Apr 3, 2018 20:59
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Peanut President posted:To hell with Crony-Capitalism when do we get to Kony-Capitalism?? the year is 2012 it is the future
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Apr 3, 2018 21:05
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Wheeee posted:Like, what do you think capitalism even is? eh, generalized commodity production being a thing requires exchange, which is what markets facilitate. so "nothing to do" is not quite right.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:25
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LGD posted:this is true, but it's basically "this is how rent seeking/corruption works under capitalism" The anarcho-libertarians whining "This isn't real capitalism, it's cronyism" have nothing to offer except more of the same by a different name. "Idealistic capitalists would never try to rig the market" and "you could apply to live under a different DRO's rules" are ridiculous on their face.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:40
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Main Paineframe posted:rent-seeking/corruption is inherent to capitalism, because the people who write the laws and enforce the regulations are also active participants in the capitalist system. the government exists to benefit businesses and protect the rich, who also run the government the whole point to democratic capitalism/social democracy is that a democratic government is supposed to participate in the economy but in a way that benefits the people, what you're describing is a captured government (which is what we have and what people are highly incentivized to create) but like... the extent to which such behavior actually dominates decision making/distribution of resources can clearly vary quite a lot and it's also very clearly not an issue that somehow vanishes when government or other forms of hierarchal organizations are directing economic activity
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Apr 3, 2018 21:42
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Hi, i'm Crony and welcome to Capitalism
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Apr 3, 2018 21:46
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Hi I'm Crony and by acknowledging my existence as a problem you have chosen to worship at the altar of ayn rand.
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Apr 3, 2018 21:52
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crony 2012
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Apr 3, 2018 21:56
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LGD posted:the whole point to democratic capitalism/social democracy is that a democratic government is supposed to participate in the economy but in a way that benefits the people, what you're describing is a captured government (which is what we have and what people are highly incentivized to create) the point of social democracy is to weaken socialists and render them harmless by disassociating them from the narrative of class struggle and committing them to maintaining the capitalist system. giving some token concessions to the people in exchange for maintaining overall control in the hands of the rich the political class are mediators and arbitrators employed by the executive class, seeking to balance the interests of the rich with the anger of everyone else in a way that holds together the overall class hierarchy regardless of what you call the system, there's no inherent measure in social democracy that protects it from the political and economic manipulations of the rich. the power that protects it lies in the hands of the people, not the government
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Apr 3, 2018 21:56
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Main Paineframe posted:the point of social democracy is to weaken socialists and render them harmless by disassociating them from the narrative of class struggle and committing them to maintaining the capitalist system. giving some token concessions to the people in exchange for maintaining overall control in the hands of the rich But the power to resist those kinds of manipulations always lies in the hands of the people, and I've not yet seen a hypothetical large scale system that doesn't either create incentives for similar behavior by an existing/nascent elite, or rely on models of human behavior that are as risible as homo economicus. I genuinely don't think there's any (human-run) solid state system that's not prone to being undermined by self-interested behavior over time. The anarcho-libertarians Halloween Jack was citing who talk about what true idealistic capitalists would do are clearly dumb as hell, but how much daylight is there really between that and someone who insists every attempt at building socialism on a large scale in the real world doesn't count because the participants lacked sufficient ideological commitment and it usually devolved into state capitalism? Maybe history will prove me wrong, but I think denying that actual political and economic systems can have differing degrees of badness and ascribing basic elements of the human condition like greed, status/power-seeking and tribalism and their consequences solely/overwhelmingly to capitalism is extremely bad analysis. Consequently there's nothing particularly wrong with a phrase like "crony capitalism" to express a way in which system has gone bad/worse than usual, even if that was is something the system is structurally prone to and there are people who put an excessive amount of emphasis on that problem as a means of distracting from more severe structural issues.
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Apr 3, 2018 22:36
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Main Paineframe posted:no https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97Ywl7RtUw
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Apr 3, 2018 22:39
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