|
Its usually, or always, better to leave things like “super advanced outside force” to the imagination. If anythig would be super advanced even to us rather than a future, advanced civilization, we cant even imagine what super advanced would be like. By the way, have you guys read metabarons by jodorowsky? I like to think of it as the real prequel to dune
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 07:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 21:48 |
|
|
Doc Hawkins posted:This part is strongly implied in Chapterhouse, isn't it? Someone gets a sense of the future that Leto was trying to make humanity capable of escaping, and it's definitely robots (or at least robotic and materialistic culture) seeking and destroying them. In God Emperor, Leto takes siona into the desert and makes her trip balls in order to avoid dying, and she sees the terrible thing, and yeah it's strongly implied to be something inhuman methodically seeking and wiping out mankind. i've already forgotten the specific passages but it seemed to imply whatever it was, was eliminating them by abusing prescience to basically find and wipe them out so there was nothing they could do to avoid it. leto's entire gambit is to send humanity out into the stars with genetic invisibility to prescience so that there will never be another paul, leto, or precient killing machine hellbent on wiping out humanity
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 07:36
|
|
|
Dyna Soar posted:Its usually, or always, better to leave things like “super advanced outside force” to the imagination. If anythig would be super advanced even to us rather than a future, advanced civilization, we cant even imagine what super advanced would be like. there are writers who can imagine extremely alien yet advanced entities - john c wright did a space opera series involving sapient superclusters of galaxies where the supercluster intelligences do things like seed civilisations which maintain the sapient material making up planets and stars and it wasn't just 'humanity+'.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 07:47
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:there are writers who can imagine extremely alien yet advanced entities - john c wright did a space opera series involving sapient superclusters of galaxies where the supercluster intelligences do things like seed civilisations which maintain the sapient material making up planets and stars and it wasn't just 'humanity+'. sure, and the old school stuff has good ones as well. then again the details can be lame while the concept is cool, like most of alastair reynold's work. or the butlerian jihad, hah all i'm saying is that leaving the details out can work much better than trying to explain everything, like in roadside picnic where the aliens are mentioned but left completely vague.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 08:05
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:It's implied that the Honored Matres were chased back into the Old Empire by some kind of super advanced outside force. It's Brian Herbert and KJA that decided it was Lord Cybertrex-8000 who was BACK FOR REVENGE. I mean part of the appeal of the Lynch movie is when Paul rides the worm to Toto power chords. Let's not pretend this is anything but space opera.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 09:43
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Okay, it is trite, but I can kinda dig the radical pivot from the esoteric to DEATH ROBOTRONS hell yeah bitch let's rock David Lynch can get away with poo poo like that because he's a great filmmaker. You could give Kevin J. Anderson a point-by-point plot outline of the theoretical Most Perfect Novel Possible and he would fart out another literary abortion because he's a complete hack.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 09:54
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:David Lynch can get away with poo poo like that because he's a great filmmaker. You could give Kevin J. Anderson a point-by-point plot outline of the theoretical Most Perfect Novel Possible and he would fart out another literary abortion because he's a complete hack. Yeah death robots coming back 4000 pages later is a solid plot twist but kja couldn't write a competent shopping list
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 10:05
|
|
|
Death robots rarely a solid plot twist. Very rarely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 10:48
|
|
|
basic hitler posted:In God Emperor, Leto takes siona into the desert and makes her trip balls in order to avoid dying, and she sees the terrible thing, and yeah it's strongly implied to be something inhuman methodically seeking and wiping out mankind. “She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder! Everywhere she searched, it would be the same. No escape anywhere.”
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 11:41
|
|
|
Murray Mantoinette posted:“She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder! Even if the threat is hostile machines, “it was the killbot mastermind from 10000+ years ago” is the most boring and dumbest way to do it. It could have been much better if it was “See? This is what happens when you don’t listen to “do not build a machine in the image of a human mind” thing.”
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 14:26
|
|
|
you would think an all-encopassing AI in a highly technological society would have other ways of loving with humanity than building killer robots but hey, i'm no scifi writer
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 14:30
|
|
|
basic hitler posted:In God Emperor, Leto takes siona into the desert and makes her trip balls in order to avoid dying, and she sees the terrible thing, and yeah it's strongly implied to be something inhuman methodically seeking and wiping out mankind. Murray Mantoinette posted:"She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder! That was it, thank you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 15:51
|
|
|
Also, it's pretty clear in god emperor that arafel would have been caused by IX and not by old machines, dead and gone. As well, the threat honoured matres faced that drove them back to the old imperium were tlelax face dancers that evolved past their old masters after perfectly absorbing serial lives, including bene gesserits.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 16:34
|
|
|
Speaking of IX, I used to read the bene gesserit planet of Wallach-IX as "Wallach 9" but then I remembered that the Roman numeral had long been forgotten, and it had some connection to ixians
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 16:36
|
|
|
A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Speaking of IX, I used to read the bene gesserit planet of Wallach-IX as "Wallach 9" but then I remembered that the Roman numeral had long been forgotten, and it had some connection to ixians Yeah I think it was mentioned in Children of Dune that only Leto and Ghanima know that it was originally a numeral and not just literally "Ix".
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 19:01
|
|
|
A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Also, it's pretty clear in god emperor that arafel would have been caused by IX and not by old machines, dead and gone. This is the most interesting approach, and makes those two characters at the end of Chapterhouse make sense.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 20:01
|
|
|
mojo1701a posted:Yeah I think it was mentioned in Children of Dune that only Leto and Ghanima know that it was originally a numeral and not just literally "Ix". huh, didn't know that
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 21:46
|
|
|
Years ago when I was dealing in used books as part of my flea market shop, the Brian/KJA books fell in my lap as part of a package deal. I read them, and really enjoyed them at the time. Thinking back on it, this was also the period of my life when I was totally hooked on synthetic marijuana of questionable origin bought at gas stations, commonly known as Spice. PAUL [whispering VO] : The books. The Spice. Is there a connection?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 21:53
|
|
|
I admit to using the Litany irl
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 21:57
|
|
|
Spinster posted:I admit to using the Litany irl 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
i have a sketchbook somewhere in here from my senior year in highschool and there's like three or four pages of the litany written over and over because that was keeping me grounded lmao
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 22:04
|
|
|
Guys Dune is good
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 22:12
|
|
|
Dune is fuckin' rad, the SyFy miniseries was pretty good as well, all things considered. I literally just finished Chapterhouse and I dunno, I think it's a bit less rad than D U N E.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 22:55
|
|
|
Mad Hamish posted:Dune is fuckin' rad, the SyFy miniseries was pretty good as well, all things considered. The miniseries was really well done. It has its flaws but I think pretty much everything it does is informed by a love and, most importantly, understanding of the source material.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 23:07
|
|
|
JacquelineDempsey posted:Years ago when I was dealing in used books as part of my flea market shop, the Brian/KJA books fell in my lap as part of a package deal. I read them, and really enjoyed them at the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2018 23:15
|
|
|
Spinster posted:I admit to using the Litany irl "Don't panic."
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 07:59
|
|
|
A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Also, it's pretty clear in god emperor that arafel would have been caused by IX and not by old machines, dead and gone. Also making it arise from something besides Lord Killbot coming back for revenge makes it a cyclical result of Machine Thinking and Machine Culture rather than just there being Bad Computor who wants to kill us. The more you unpack what KJA wrote the worse it gets.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 08:42
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Also making it arise from something besides Lord Killbot coming back for revenge makes it a cyclical result of Machine Thinking and Machine Culture rather than just there being Bad Computor who wants to kill us. The more you unpack what KJA wrote the worse it gets. Reminder that that hack KJA had Baron Harkonnen as a young superbuff 10 and when he hosed Rev Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam she gave him some disease that turned him hyperfat, instead of his fatness being indicative of the Harkonnen decadence and hedonism. It’s like Star Wars prequels levels of “everything you know from the originals has to have some crazy backstory intimately connected with the main characters”
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 09:08
|
|
|
He also didn't pick up that the Baron acted like a total hedonist perv goon to make people think he was dumb, because Kevin J Anderson assumes everyone is as stupid as him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 09:17
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:He also didn't pick up that the Baron acted like a total hedonist perv goon to make people think he was dumb, because Kevin J Anderson assumes everyone is as stupid as him. In that scene in the House Atreides or House Harkonnen or whichever prequel book, KJA has brilliant human computer Piter Devries incapacitate RM Gaius Helen Mohiam, the espionage master and living weapon trained by the Bene Gesserit. The brilliant subtle bit of intricate action that KJA apparently deems indicative of the immense mental and physical capacities of these two pinnacles of future human perfection, was to have Piter hide behind a door and taser her when she walked in god I hate KJA
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 09:33
|
|
|
Every one of these posts make me so so glad I never read beyond the Frank Herbert 6. I love the first Dune, I've read it a ton of times on its own. Reading the next two make it complete, they are like part two and three of a large book. God Emperor is completely different in that it is so far in the future that it takes a while to grasp what is going on and where things stand, but I say that in a good way. I love it, it's so cool. Heretics and Chapterhouse are cool too but without having a good final book after Frank so selfishly dying before writing it, they just feel incomplete in some way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 10:03
|
|
|
Dyna Soar posted:you would think an all-encopassing AI in a highly technological society would have other ways of loving with humanity than building killer robots but hey, i'm no scifi writer assuming ai doesn't by its nature try to murder its creators in this setting i imagine it could also be a civilisation that created ais that worked for them. strongly superhuman intellects are going to poo poo over whatever extra mileage you can get out of human beings by eugenics and getting high and having orgies i wished we got to know more about ix from frank so we could know just how much they brushed up against the proscription on ai
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 10:29
|
|
|
the dune encyclopedia, which isn't "canon" (but who cares, really) described the butlerian jihad in almost class warfare terms. the whole thing kicked off when an automated planet that controlled a backwards, agricultural planet in the same system rolled out an auto-abortion mechanism. once the people on the backwards planet figured out what was going on, they rebelled and invaded their oppressor, and then really flipped out when seeing what automation had done to the place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 11:19
|
|
|
i don't remember if the abortion angle made it into the BH/KJA book, but i remember trying to read it and in the beginning, OMICRON-5000 or whatever literally dangled a baby from his palace balcony and then dropped it with the baby landing with a SPLAT. cue me groaning really loudly and closing the book.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 11:22
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i don't remember if the abortion angle made it into the BH/KJA book, but i remember trying to read it and in the beginning, OMICRON-5000 or whatever literally dangled a baby from his palace balcony and then dropped it with the baby landing with a SPLAT. OMICRON-5000 was just being ecologically conscious
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 12:32
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the dune encyclopedia, which isn't "canon" More canonical than the KJA stuff 
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 12:32
|
|
|
I have consulted the sacred scrolls!      
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 12:46
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I have consulted the sacred scrolls! Apparently the one thing in the DE Herbert didn’t like was making Mohaim the mother of Lady Jessica, so I’ll consider this canon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 12:56
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Also making it arise from something besides Lord Killbot coming back for revenge makes it a cyclical result of Machine Thinking and Machine Culture rather than just there being Bad Computor who wants to kill us. The more you unpack what KJA wrote the worse it gets.  I remember reading whichever of the books which has Little Duncan escaping the geidi prime slave-jungle, or at least parts of it. I don't regret reading that bit specifically, because I think it helped me get that Duncan was the Pulp Space Opera Hero, bad-rear end from birth and having continuous years of incredible adventures, and that's why everyone treats him with such reverence and sees him as so important. He's a marker standing in for a type of person and a literary tradition that the books are commenting on. E: I loved the dune encyclopedia. It's insane and extremely uneven but in a way I found incredibly cool. Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 15, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 17:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 21:48 |
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:Apparently the one thing in the DE Herbert didn’t like was making Mohaim the mother of Lady Jessica, so I’ll consider this canon. So literally the one thing Frank hated is the one thing his son kept.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2018 18:44
|
|
