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Magikarpal Tunnel posted:I'm on mobile and at work so I'm not able to look up the exact source but my understanding is that the trekkers had gotten lost/turned around due to weather, which lead to them camping in a different place than planned. It also means they're tired and more prone to make mistakes and are more vulnerable to hypothermia. Even a pretty small avalanche would be enough to cause panic in a group that's already tired and on edge. They weren't lost in any meaningful way. They'd drifted off their intended course and realized it before making camp. They thought they were on one mountain, but were on another instead. Their journals show that they knew where they were when they made camp. And, for folks still on the idea of there being an avalanche, the reports of the searchers explicitly say they didn't find any evidence of an avalanche. The area is not one where avalanches are known to occur either. Show me in the primary data where anyone has evidence of an avalanche beyond "I can't think of another explanation, so it must have been an avalanche". I'll wait.
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May 28, 2018 23:03
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Welcome to dyaltev pass, where the facts Are made up and the urban myths doesnt matter
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May 28, 2018 23:20
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Cat Army
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I heard they broke their necks trying to suck their own dicks. Only one made it
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May 28, 2018 23:33
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Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:I love that you “my dude”d me, posted that, plus the ghost icons and “skeeeeeeeeeeletons toooootally puuuuuuuuulped” after accusing me of looking down my nose at people, and telling me how “literary license” is part of the problem. Here's where you looked down your nose at people who try to be rational about this, because apparently you can't remember what you posted two hours ago: Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:Like, I know we all want to be super-rational beings who can laugh at the people who think aliens did it or whatever, but there are ample reasons to find the Dyatlov Pass incident to be puzzling. As for the rest... man, I really worry about your reading comprehension. I used ghost icons because people go out of their way to try to make this spookier than it actually is and you feed into that by being sensationalist about it. You asked what valid sources were. I told you they were primary sources. If you can't trace a piece of evidence back to the inquest or first-hand accounts of the search, then you don't use it to support your argument. Like, is that news to you?
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May 28, 2018 23:48
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Scathach posted:.
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May 29, 2018 00:06
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Wasn’t it reported that the area they camped had an interesting acoustic property. That when the wind blew a particular way it created an unnerving sound with the way it echoed around. The thoughts were it was that which spooked them and then hypothermia and panic set in leading to the tragic events.
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May 29, 2018 01:03
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Besesoth posted:Here's where you looked down your nose at people who try to be rational about this, because apparently you can't remember what you posted two hours ago: That's your example of me "looking down my nose" at people? I included myself in it, and it was obviously tongue-in-cheek. You accused me of something, then you did everything you accused me of, and you did it numerous times, and now you're talking about my reading comprehension, and you have not posted a single "primary source." You are full of poo poo, and have not read a thing about this you didn't find on Wikipedia or in a pop-fiction book.
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May 29, 2018 01:20
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Azathoth posted:They weren't lost in any meaningful way. They'd drifted off their intended course and realized it before making camp. They thought they were on one mountain, but were on another instead. Their journals show that they knew where they were when they made camp. They were lost big time, even though they knew where they were. I'm gonna quote the wikipedia article because that's the only non-sensationalist source I can think of: quote:It seems they planned to get over the pass and make camp for the next night on the opposite side, but because of worsening weather conditions – snowstorms and decreasing visibility – they lost their direction and deviated west, up towards the top of Kholat Syakhl. When they realized their mistake, the group decided to stop and set up camp there on the slope of the mountain, rather than moving 1.5 kilometres (0.93 mi) downhill to a forested area which would have offered some shelter from the elements So they were at a higher altitude than intended (not great) and ended up camping in an exposed area, also pretty bad. They were hiking and climbing for longer than they intended. Leading to exhaustion, leading to them being vulnerable to hypothermia. I know not all of them died of it, but hypothermia (and exhaustion) can lead to people making mistakes, which lead to fatal accidents, especially in the wilderness where people can say, fall down a ravine, since the three that died of trauma were found at the bottom of a ravine. I know there's no proof of an avalanche happening, but there's also no loving proof of the government just so happening to be bombing the same mountain they're climbing of. I know you can go 'well, they covered it up!' but if the Soviet government had really wanted to cover up what happened to the expedition, I doubt we'd be talking about it. It was six people on a rural mountain, it's not like it'd have to be a huge conspiracy to just....never talk about it.
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May 29, 2018 01:21
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Magikarpal Tunnel posted:They were lost big time, even though they knew where they were. I'm gonna quote the wikipedia article because that's the only non-sensationalist source I can think of: Fair enough on the degree to which they were lost, as you and I agree on that. I don't personally consider them as lost in that situation, just way the hell off course, no sense arguing over a point of agreement. As for the last part, yeah, that's why this thing keeps drawing people into it. There's no explanation for which there isn't a solid counter. I didn't mean to express my own opinion as irrefutable fact, just my own personal theory. It really does all go back to whatever the initial event was that made them freak out. I get the points about them being higher than expected, out in the open, exhausted, etc. but I have a hard time going from that to full blown panic. Like, that's a really common thing for any mountaineer to experience, but there isn't an example I can think of from other locations where a whole group of climbers freaks the gently caress out all at once and scatters from inside their tent. Hypoxia and hypothermia will make a person do crazy things, but they affect each person in different ways. Whole groups just don't go crazy from it all at once.
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May 29, 2018 01:44
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Isn’t the explanation the investigators eventually came to that the people with the chest injuries got them from falling down that ravine in the dark? Since the searchers didn’t see any evidence of an avalanche.
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May 29, 2018 02:16
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Peeny Cheez posted:So did it look super weird or just lopsided? You know, if you didn't know what you were looking for you wouldn't even notice.
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May 29, 2018 02:22
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I’ve known two guys with one ball, both because of nut cancer. One of them had a fake so everything looked normal; he would use it as a party trick where he’d whip out his sack, grab hold of the part with the fake in it, and go “hey watch this!” before hitting it with something heavy. The other got cancer while living in a country where nut cancer just isn’t that common so they didn’t have replacements on hand to give him and his sack looks weird.
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May 29, 2018 02:30
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IMO the experience level of the Dyatlov hikers is a red herring. "Experienced" people die all the time because they get overconfident in their own skills, or gently caress up and panic, or make a mistake/get confused, or get killed by forces beyond their control. Dale Earnhardt was extremely experienced at driving in a circle, there's no possible way he could have driven into a wall and died without some kind of outside force affecting him! (it was aliens)
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May 29, 2018 02:58
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Jesus loving Christ. http://nashvillepublicradio.org/post/he-heads-back-prison-nashville-man-says-goodbye-new-life-he-hoped-build#stream/0
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May 29, 2018 03:44
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Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:Jesus loving Christ. Isn't this what double jeopardy is supposed to be about?
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May 29, 2018 03:48
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xtal posted:Isn't this what double jeopardy is supposed to be about? No, double jeopardy is that they can’t try you twice for the same crime unless they can prove the first trial was flawed or they get new evidence. This is that he went to prison, got released, and then they’re questioning his release order.
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May 29, 2018 03:53
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i did dyatlov pass
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May 29, 2018 04:14
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this broken hill posted:i did dyatlov pass You are an avalanche of humanity so this checks out
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May 29, 2018 04:16
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hosed up how Vanya ate that woman’s eyes and tongue though
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May 29, 2018 04:17
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Imagine 1 ball on the edge of a pass
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May 29, 2018 04:36
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and to think, this derail about dyatlov pass all started as a post about redditors being insufferable
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May 29, 2018 04:39
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Pirate Radar posted:No, double jeopardy is that they can’t try you twice for the same crime unless they can prove the first trial was flawed or they get new evidence. This is that he went to prison, got released, and then they’re questioning his release order. I don't see how that's any different considering you can always say the next "trial" is the extension of the previous "trial." Anyway, laws are dumb.
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May 29, 2018 05:31
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xtal posted:I don't see how that's any different considering you can always say the next "trial" is the extension of the previous "trial." Anyway, laws are dumb. There is no second trial. He’s already been tried and convicted. This is, “Oops, we made an administrative mistake, and you have to go back to the pen.”
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May 29, 2018 05:36
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Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:There is no second trial. He’s already been tried and convicted. This is, “Oops, we made an administrative mistake, and you have to go back to the pen.” That's basically what I said. There isn't any point to double jeopardy laws when you can go back to jail after being released for the same offense. Any second trial is merely an "administrative mistake."
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May 29, 2018 05:50
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Dyatlov Pass was interesting to me until I had to research and write about it for a website. Such benign poo poo. Ascribe all the ghosts, aliens, and magic you want to it, but it was just a bunch of scared people dying on a mountain. Bigfoot did it.
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May 29, 2018 06:28
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Pirate Radar posted:hosed up how Vanya ate that woman’s eyes and tongue though
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May 29, 2018 06:34
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Veni Vidi Ameche! posted:None of them woke up that day and bought a three-wheeled stroller to hike the pass. I got no dog in this fight, but just wanted to say I appreciate this reference. Also, I'd never heard of the Lead Masks Case, and that's some weird rear end poo poo, no matter how you slice it.
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May 29, 2018 06:56
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Untrustable posted:Bigfoot did it. this broken hill posted:he was framed
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May 29, 2018 07:27
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Hey avalanche deniers! Of course there is no evidence, snow melts!! Duuuuuuhhh doy doy duuuuhhh
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May 29, 2018 10:15
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There couldn’t have been an avalanche. It’s warm right now outside my house and I don’t see any snow.
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May 29, 2018 10:42
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xtal posted:That's basically what I said. There isn't any point to double jeopardy laws when you can go back to jail after being released for the same offense. Any second trial is merely an "administrative mistake." It isn’t a second trial, guilt is not in question, it’s sentencing that’s in question. Sentencing is not covered by double jeopardy laws.
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May 29, 2018 10:51
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Pirate Radar posted:I’ve known two guys with one ball, both because of nut cancer. One of them had a fake so everything looked normal; he would use it as a party trick where he’d whip out his sack, grab hold of the part with the fake in it, and go “hey watch this!” before hitting it with something heavy. The other got cancer while living in a country where nut cancer just isn’t that common so they didn’t have replacements on hand to give him and his sack looks weird. Did they lose them before or after you met them? I can only see one common factor here.
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May 29, 2018 11:09
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Safety Biscuits posted:Did they lose them before or after you met them? I can only see one common factor here. One before and one after, which is almost sad because if I secretly have a mobile nut corruption aura around me that gives people ball cancer then I’m wasting a valuable opportunity to get paid by pharmaceutical companies to go stand in big crowds of people all day
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May 29, 2018 11:19
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tl;dr: in the Yuba Five disappearance of five mentally-impaired adults, Reddit is over-focused on the red herring that two were Army vets, and really over-rate how applicable conventional military training skills are to wilderness survival. A related point to Dyatlov Pass is the "Yuba Five" incident, also called the "American Dyatlov Pass." That's the one in the 1970s where five men, of varying degrees of mental handicap, drove way up into the California mountains and died, with one surviving 8-13 weeks in a trailer cabin before starving to death, and one never found. In the Reddit threads, people make a big deal about how two of the guys had been in the Army, and thus *must* have had extensive survival training. I can't speak for 1970s training, but I joined the Marines in 1999, and I wouldn't remotely say that I had *applicable* survival training for getting by in the California mountains. And I didn't just do Boot Camp, I did Marine Combat Training (which every Marine does some version of) and then went officer and did OCS then six months of Basic School. So a fair bit more training than basic Army enlisted would have. I learned zero about how to find water, since in the modern military you're hosed without functional supply lines, and water comes from supply lines, and they really don't want you drinking out of rivers and creeks unless it's an absolute emergency, so it never came up. I learned zero about how to find food in the wild (same reason), though the cabin the guys found had plenty of food, including military C rations, some of which had been opened properly with the P38 military can opener (thus presumed to have been one of the vets) while others had been opened more roughly with a knife. In officer training we did a bunch of land navigation, but I learned almost nothing about land nav when enlisted. Besides, military land nav is applicable when you have a local map and a compass, it's really not made for wandering around in a forest where you have no idea where you are. Oh, and I never learned how to build a fire in the military (though already knew from civilian experience) because the military absolutely discourages lighting fires in any conventional circumstance. With modern night vision, or especially thermal vision, or even just bare eyes, fires are extremely visible and draw attention to your position. And given that most areas we operate in in you have appropriate cold-weather gear (if in the Afghan mountains for example) and the MRE has a chemical heater packed in every meal (little envelope with water-reactive powder that heats up) there's really not much reason to make a fire. So basic military training might be useful for things like using the buddy system, not panicking, keeping track of people, basic medical care, some decision-making skills, etc. but is not at all equivalent to wilderness survival skill training. There *are* such schools, including cold weather survival school, mountaineering courses, etc. that would totally be applicable, but those aren't at all part of the basic training package, and during the Vietnam War would've been of low priority for non-specialized troops. TapTheForwardAssist has a new favorite as of 17:48 on May 29, 2018 |
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May 29, 2018 17:40
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Yeah, they make a big deal out of their military training, and the only thing that I find it useful for is establishing how independent they were in ordinary life. From the contemporary news articles, it isn't really possible to get a handle on their individual levels of intelligence, and Madruga, by virtue of being a veteran, tends to be assumed to be at least reasonably independent, but I doubt anyone arguing that point knows that with any certainty.
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May 29, 2018 18:24
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Whenever I encounter the "he/they were experienced, so why would they have made a mistake like that," argument I think of an old archaeology professor of mine. He was the chief of site safety at my university and probably the most experienced fieldworker in the department, having started working on sites at the age of 16. It was literally his job to visit our excavations and assess them for safe practices, a necessary role because an archaeological excavation is basically a reverse construction site and just as dangerous. The year before I started my course, he was running a dig in a church with basically ideal conditions - nice solid clay soils, professionally cut sections, indoors so no rain to weaken the pit walls and so on. It was a deep excavation, which are inherently dangerous, but a stable one. Anyway, they all broke for lunch one day and he realised he'd left something inside, so headed back to grab it. While he was there, he saw that someone had left a full spoil bucket in the pit and jumped in to grab it without thinking, despite the fact that "never get in a pit alone" is THE most important rule in excavating, something he had spent 20 years teaching other people. Unfortunately for him, that was the time the section collapsed, bringing a couple of tons of earth down around him and burying him completely. If a colleague hadn't happened to come in straight after him and witness it happen, he would 100% have suffocated to death by the time anyone found him. As it was, he got away with crushed ribs, a broken arm, and years of nightmares about being buried alive. Experience will protect you, but it's not a magic bullet and even people whose livelihoods depend on their experience will sometimes gently caress up, or get cocky, or misread a situation.
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May 29, 2018 18:26
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Yeah, here in the construction world it's often emphasized that, these days, it's the experienced workers who are more prone to lost-time injuries.
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May 29, 2018 18:52
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xtal posted:That's basically what I said. There isn't any point to double jeopardy laws when you can go back to jail after being released for the same offense. Any second trial is merely an "administrative mistake." It's not a second trial. Let's say you're serving a prison sentence and the prison staff screws up and mixes you up with another prisoner who has the same name and when it's time to let that other prisoner out, they let you out instead even though you still have 15 years of your sentence remaining. Is it "double jeopardy" when they figure out a mistake was made and the cops show up to bring you back?
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May 29, 2018 19:14
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Here is a case of literal Double Jeopardy. "Melvin Henry Ignatow[1] (March 26, 1938 – September 1, 2008)[2] was a resident of Louisville, Kentucky, U.S., who murdered his former girlfriend, Brenda Sue Schaefer, in 1988. The case was controversial because Ignatow was acquitted of the charge, but photographs proving his guilt were uncovered after the trial. Under the legal principle of double jeopardy, however, Ignatow could not be tried a second time for the murder. He was, instead, convicted and jailed for several instances of perjury in his grand jury testimony for the case.[3]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Ignatow Really hosed up case, but a great book to read. https://www.amazon.com/Double-Jeopardy-Bob-Hill/dp/0380721929
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May 29, 2018 19:55
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The worst case of new evidence showing up when it was too late was during the Karla Homalka trial. 
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May 29, 2018 20:06
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