|
Not sure if you spelled it out already, but what is the thinking behind those elaborate miters? They're pretty sweet looking, but I would be afraid of warping and gaps and such down the road with them being outside. Specifically the three-way ones. Is that normal practice over there? Are you using an epoxy or anything at the joints?
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2018 15:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 02:15 |
|
|
schmug posted:Not sure if you spelled it out already, but what is the thinking behind those elaborate miters? They're pretty sweet looking, but I would be afraid of warping and gaps and such down the road with them being outside. Specifically the three-way ones. Is that normal practice over there? Are you using an epoxy or anything at the joints? I don't know if it's normal practice but it's the simplest approach I could think of that didn't look kinda crap. Nothing at the joints right now because I was again going to give them some room to expand, but perhaps I should pin them to one another. I was going to but decided not to.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
The afternoon went as thus: It was time to begin fitting the main boards. Though I did slightly snafu the left hand upright to the point where it's too far in to be able to line everything up. I definitely didn't try to trim back the batten with a jigsaw and overheat and bend the blade, not at all. I definitely went straight to using a claw hammer to pull the upright out and pack it with spacers. After that, I wanted to get a good idea of where the boards will line up since I have to start at the bottom but align with a board above the door. So I cut some slices out of a crappy board and stacked 'em   Need to fix this offset  Doing some maths.  None of it worked, it was all wrong, I wound up putting marks on the upright instead and trimming down a spacer. I did it wrong first, of course. Anyway.     Boards   I checked the heights of the boards against the marks and of course they weren't right, I'll have to do what I can to make up the space without revealing too much of the nails. Anyway, was out of time and mostly energy dead. Back to work tomorrow :/ 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
woahhhhhj yesssSsssss !!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2018 10:26
|
|
|
Finished work around 5, headed down to do some more. Here's where I picked up. The boards from yesterday starting to colour like the others thanks to the baking sunshine.  Actually had a bit of cloud cover this evening for the first time in forever, so it wasn't too bad out. Not sure if I showed this yet but this is the template I've been using to position drill holes on the boards, since you can't actually see exactly where you need to drill from the front.  It puts the holes around about here, which is the highest you can go without interfering with the next board above.   I was lifting boards as high as they could go without exposing too much of the nail head below so I could hopefully catch up with the marks on the upright. You can see I'm several inches too far down in that photo. For some reason it wasn't working, if anything I was losing ground, and running out of height to catch up in. I puzzled over it for a while and realised it was two factors. 1. I'd allowed for a 2mm gap between boards as per directions, but it turns out that 2mm is about the max I could do before showing too much nail head. This means I didn't really have any margin to stretch the gap. 2. Despite lifting the boards up for as much of the process as I could, they were actually slipping back down during the final nailing. I adjusted for this in a few ways. First I put in a couple of cheat boards where the nails went through the uppermost part of the board below, but then quickly realised that it was interfering with the board above. I could keep doing that if I want provided I notch out the boards where they need to slot over the nails. I also reduced the diameter of the drilled hole. I was deliberately overdrilling at 4mm (for a 2.65mm nail) but brought it down to 3.5mm so that there was less room for the board to slip, and I focused more on holding the board high during final nailing. I'll see where I'm at as I continue up tomorrow (or whenever). One other trick up my sleeve is that I have plenty more lost head nails which I've been using for the frames, and with those I can push the boards further without revealing the nail head, at the cost of having to overdrill even less to maintain a decent grip on the board. Here's where I ended the evening.  Also bought some more horseshoe packers last night, which is good because I'm already running low. Additionally, a few days ago while working on the batten I noticed that my most commonly used screw bits were starting to warp from heavy use with the impact driver, so I bought a bunch more of the two types I use all the time, namely torx 30 and pozi 2. Extra screwdriver bits £18.65 More horseshoe packers £18.98 Total so far £152,636.96
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2018 19:10
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:
You bought impact (black) bits, right? Also, looking good. Do you have a jig to help with the vertical spacing while you nail them in?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 04:03
|
|
|
Poisonlizard posted:You bought impact (black) bits, right? The pozi bits are explicitly impact bits, the torx ones don't state so but they're a decent brand and as long as they last at least as long each as the T30 bit that came with my starter pack years ago then I'll have plenty to finish the job with. Poisonlizard posted:Do you have a jig to help with the vertical spacing while you nail them in? I considered it but it's not really an option as far as I can tell because the profile has a deliberate slope on it, so there's nothing solid to prop against. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 07:12
|
|
|
I just had a kitchen fitter round on an unrelated thing (he needed access to a neighbour's garden for their fitting) and he told me how pleased he was to see me rack drying the cladding and how he was "happy to see someone doing it right for once" 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 10:42
|
|
|
Uhhhh sounds like a good buddy to have!!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 11:04
|
|
|
peanut posted:Uhhhh sounds like a good buddy to have!!!! Oh yeah I guess I should've got his card. Oh well I know what house he was working on so I can ask them if need be. That said, there is a certain slightly-too-fast patter I've come to recognise in trades where they're very focused on some specific aspect of the job and chatter quickly about the pros and cons and what he would or wouldn't do in what situations, and broadly speaking I've found that those people are perhaps latching on to some aspect of the job because it's something they understand well, and that usually means there are large areas they are not so confident in. So while it may be that he's not a cowboy fitter who'll just do whatever to get the job paid, it's not necessarily a sign that he's an all round expert. Jaded Burnout fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jul 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 13:24
|
|
|
So I just spent 3 hours undoing and redoing 2 days of work. I pulled off all the boards, erased the markings and started again without th 2mm gap built in, so all the boards could be stacked directly and still line up. Had to recut a base piece taller than the last one, fitted it, fitted the next above. I have photos but I can’t be hosed to post them for reasons that are about to become clear. 3 boards in and I’d lost a loving inch of height again. What the gently caress. I feel like I’m cursed by a loving genie because every measurement, check, double triple quadruple check that I do with a variety of boards from different planks including the ones I’m putting up now show that everything should line up, and yet it doesn’t. I dry stacked all the remaining boards and was an inch and a half short by the top. I was close to tears by this point and wanted to smash everything, but instead I put everything away and went inside. I’m going to have to pull it all down and start again some other day, because I have to be back in London tomorrow. gently caress this loving wall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 19:42
|
|
|
Good job on stopping to take a breath before going postal. Break it down to basics: either your math is off, your measurements are off, or your boards are off. I gather that "SP06" image you posted above is the profile of the cladding that you are using. How do they fit together when stacked? If no gap is left, does the tongue hit the bottom of the groove at the same time as the steps behind that contact? When you say that you're leaving a 2mm gap, do you mean in the tongue and groove, or on the front side between where the angle bottoms and the next piece starts? One would hope that the boards are consistent. What happens if you just stack them, with no gap, just leaving them where they rest? I'm not sure I'll be able to offer advice - just trying to get a though process started that might root out the issue. If I wanted to maintain a certain alignment, I'd probably make a gauge block that fits the angle of the lower piece, and the bottom horizontal flat of the upper piece. Something like one of these, maybe:  Where that short vertical after the angle is your desired gap.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 20:50
|
|
|
I’m confused. Don’t you just push the tongue into the groove as far as it goes? And why are you pre-drilling for nails?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
You'd think but real life is so poorly designed that there's a bunch of leftover, uncommented code from some nobody such that wood like I dunno expand and contracts at variable, undetermined rates and explodes all your cladding off your house if you do it properly. Sucks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 21:32
|
|
|
Darchangel posted:Break it down to basics: either your math is off, your measurements are off, or your boards are off. Yeah, this is why I stopped with maths and measurements and went to using actual marks and pieces of board, and I've triple checked and sample checked all sorts of boards against all sorts of marks and they still line up, so it must be the boards. Darchangel posted:I gather that "SP06" image you posted above is the profile of the cladding that you are using. How do they fit together when stacked? If no gap is left, does the tongue hit the bottom of the groove at the same time as the steps behind that contact? They fit this way up, and the tongue fits into the groove accurately with no gap.  Darchangel posted:When you say that you're leaving a 2mm gap, do you mean in the tongue and groove, or on the front side between where the angle bottoms and the next piece starts? That was the first pass, between the tongue and groove, since I remembered that being a recommendation for expansion. Today I tried without the gap since surely that would avoid any issues of the boards slipping down. Darchangel posted:One would hope that the boards are consistent. I suspect they're not consistent enough. Darchangel posted:What happens if you just stack them, with no gap, just leaving them where they rest? That's what I did this time, and still wound up with an offset. Darchangel posted:If I wanted to maintain a certain alignment, I'd probably make a gauge block that fits the angle of the lower piece, and the bottom horizontal flat of the upper piece. I did consider this, but the problem is that the base of the block will be a slope sitting on another slope, so there's only mild friction stopping the boards from slipping. Not very useful unfortunately. What I will probably do instead is rather than trying any of this prediction at all I'll cut and dry stack every single board all the way up to the top and then measure the offset, and cut to that. It's probably a better approach more generally because it means I can adjust the cut of the base board to offset any variance that appears across the length of the board. If I really want to stick with a 2mm gap (and I don't think I do because it's too hard to maintain when nailing) then I can drop 2mm spacers into the groove as I do the dry run. Tomarse posted:I’m confused. Don’t you just push the tongue into the groove as far as it goes? That doesn't allow for vertical expansion of the board, and was recommended by one supplier, but since I can't verify that with this particular profile and supplier I'll likely not bother (as attempted today). Tomarse posted:And why are you pre-drilling for nails? Siberian Larch is hard enough that you'll split it without pre-drilling, and overdrilling (i.e. drilling a larger hole than the width of the nail) was recommended by every supplier because the wood will expand in the winter and might split.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 21:59
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:That doesn't allow for vertical expansion of the board, and was recommended by one supplier, but since I can't verify that with this particular profile and supplier I'll likely not bother (as attempted today). Aah. OK. Gotcha. Why can’t you just space them really simply by taking your vertical edge trim pieces off and then putting 2mm spacers (eg tile spacers or matchsticks) in the ends of the tongue and groove slots before pushing the planks together as far as they will go (before hitting your spacer)
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2018 23:09
|
|
|
Personally I’d just nail up a board to extend out your header board since you know you’ll need to line up with that one, then work your way down with whatever space you want and then rip the last board at the bottom to fit as needed. I doubt anyone would notice and/or care as long as you did roughly the same spacing on the other side of the door. Or am I missing something?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 03:27
|
|
|
stupid puma posted:Personally I’d just nail up a board to extend out your header board since you know you’ll need to line up with that one, then work your way down with whatever space you want and then rip the last board at the bottom to fit as needed. I doubt anyone would notice and/or care as long as you did roughly the same spacing on the other side of the door. Or am I missing something? It's a hidden nail system where the nail is at the top of the board and hidden by the bottom of the one above, so unfortunately it's not possible to work downwards.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 05:44
|
|
|
What if you make a two jigs like the left one here? Hold it against the bottom of the plank you just mounted, and you can rest the next plank on top of it, with fixed spacing. This will probably require an assistant, or somehow fixing the jigs to the planks. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 08:16
|
|
|
nielsm posted:What if you make a two jigs like the left one here? Hold it against the bottom of the plank you just mounted, and you can rest the next plank on top of it, with fixed spacing. The main issue at hand is not so much the measuring as resisting gravity. In the case of that jig (unless I’m misunderstanding it) both nibs would be resting on the top of the slope, and so we’d be back to friction as the only thing holding it in place, right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 08:39
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:The main issue at hand is not so much the measuring as resisting gravity. In the case of that jig (unless I’m misunderstanding it) both nibs would be resting on the top of the slope, and so we’d be back to friction as the only thing holding it in place, right? go upside down, ignore the future issues.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 08:52
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:The main issue at hand is not so much the measuring as resisting gravity. In the case of that jig (unless I’m misunderstanding it) both nibs would be resting on the top of the slope, and so we’d be back to friction as the only thing holding it in place, right? Here's a more complete illustration of my idea, profile and front elevation:  The middle board has just been mounted and fixed, the green board is now being mounted. You place the top of the bottom notch of the jigs tightly against the bottom of the middle board, then somehow fix the jigs in place, either with an assistant holding them, or with nail/screw (white dot) you can remove again. When both jigs are tightly against the bottom of the middle board, place the new board resting on the top of the jigs, fasten the new board, and remove the jigs again. If both jigs are equal size, you should get equal distance between the bottoms of every board.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 09:58
|
|
|
nielsm posted:Here's a more complete illustration of my idea, profile and front elevation: Thanks for putting in the time to do the diagram. I think this would work if it was fastened to the board but in doing so you'd undo the purpose of having hidden nail boards. If just holding them by hand (even with an assistant) the slope isn't going to provide enough support to prevent slippage any more than if you were holding it by hand without the jig. I think I'll stick with ditching the 2mm gap and base the bottom strip height on a full dry run rather than any kind of abstraction I've used to far (measurements, calculations, or stub pieces) since they've shown to be unreliable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 12:17
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:It's a hidden nail system where the nail is at the top of the board and hidden by the bottom of the one above, so unfortunately it's not possible to work downwards. That makes sense. Maybe the solution, then, is removing the header board and starting from the bottom, ripping however you need to once you reach the top of the door?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
stupid puma posted:That makes sense. Maybe the solution, then, is removing the header board and starting from the bottom, ripping however you need to once you reach the top of the door? Yeah perhaps. Though that has a chance of loving me when I do the other side of the door.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
Laser level, 3M industrial velcro to temporarily hold boards while you fidget with them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2018 21:00
|
|
|
I did consider getting a laser level for this stuff, but it was suggested that aligning them is a lot of faff which I think makes sense when you're talking about this number of different alignments, it'll be annoying to keep mucking with a tripod.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2018 21:32
|
|
|
I thank everyone for their efforts on this, I think I have a way forward now, we can ease off on the solutioneering until I hit the next issue 
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2018 21:32
|
|
|
just nail the loving wood to the side of your house you nutcase!
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2018 02:45
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:Speaking of procrastination, I did recently notice in myself a thing where I would feel like I'm procrastinating, that I couldn't be bothered to tackle something, when in fact I'm just scared to try. Not scared of messing up so much, just that it's a known unknown and tackling it could result in distress, and so as a defence mechanism my mind tells me I can't be bothered. With my first house I fairly rapidly realized that most home improvement/repair stuff really isn't that tough and there's really not much to be worried about as long as you don't mind occasionally doing things twice, or at worst spending more to get it fixed after you gently caress it up. Later I also realized that there's occasionally things where, if you're a novice, you're better off just calling a pro. But it was really just dumb luck that I ended up calling a pro in that particular instance. It was like my 9th plumbing leak in my shittily built 1978 split foyer and I opened up the wall and it was the main sewer drain from the second floor and the ABS pipe had split from rubbing against a copper hot water pipe for 30+ years. But where it split is where it Y'd from two upstairs sources so I looked at having to cut the lower pipe way down, extend it back up, and then cut both of the upper pipes above the Y and extend them back down and just said gently caress it and called a plumber. And that is when I learned about the existence of the little electric interior pipe reamer thing so he didn't have to cut everything off and re-extend it, he could just ream out the male end of the other two pipes without changing any of the geometry. He probably did the job in 1/5th the time it woulda taken me. Never be scared to try though. But also do your due diligence/research and try not to be dumb.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2018 03:03
|
|
|
No in-progress shots today as I didn't have my phone on me. I removed the remaining boards, restacked them (blutack to hold the bottom one, wedged shims to hold the others), cut some more to get up to the alignment point, measured the offset, and cut my last spare board to size. Then I restacked them all again because gently caress if I'm doing this again. Came out about right. Sealed the end grains on them and got to fixin'. Still took a long time because getting the right shims in is time consuming. I was aiming for a 2mm gap at the top and got 3mm, not too bad. The alignment with the existing header board isn't great mostly because that board wasn't set right, but I couldn't remove it at this point without destroying it, so it's something I'll just live with. Everything fought me every step of the way, of course, but it's done now until I can do the same on the other side and meet them in the middle. Interestingly I found the same rain streaks on the few boards I'd left on the wall, despite there being nothing above them, so I guess it's tannins leeching out? Here's some photos. I might do more tomorrow, I might not. Who knows.  
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 18:18
|
|
|
It looks great! Are they cedar?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
tetrapyloctomy posted:It looks great! Are they cedar? Siberian larch
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:Siberian larch *Urge to reference the Monty Python “Larch” skits intensifies.* Looks good! Hopefully the other side will go better now that you have some experience under your belt. Really the hardest part to this sort of DIY to me is that if I mess up a little *I* will know it’s there and notice every time, even if no one else ever will. In your case, it’s even on the back of the house where no one but yourself or invited guests will ever even see.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
Jaded Burnout posted:Siberian larch Never heard of it. Do you leave it unstained to weather like cedar, or do you paint/stain it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 19:48
|
|
|
tetrapyloctomy posted:Never heard of it. Do you leave it unstained to weather like cedar, or do you paint/stain it? It's very similar to cedar, from what I hear. I'll be leaving it to bronze like some of the darker boards in the photo and then oil it and UV protect it so it doesn't silver. Some people like that look, I don't.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
Cool. Regardless, it looks great, you did a kickass job. edit: I am personally using the impending threat of rain to once again put off fixing my stairs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 19:57
|
|
|
Whatever you came up with, it worked, and looks great!
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 21:07
|
|
|
schmug posted:Whatever you came up with, it worked, and looks great! I developed a strong distrust in any kind of abstraction and a lasting hatred for natural woods. On the other hand, finally got some good use out of my rubber mallet; getting a full length board to slot down over several others is a bit tricky because of little wobbles and low tolerances on the T&G.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2018 21:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 02:15 |
|
|
Sometimes, the answer really is a big hammer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2018 01:27
|
|