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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:People can (and in some cases rightly) bash Tesla but this is the thing that really does my brain in - Tesla knew from the absolute get go that unless you could drive a EV from coast to coast like a normal ICE, EV's were dead in the water... and thence actually went and put some thought and effort into that issue. It's seems like the other car makers are half arsing what is in reality the most important issue with EV's and Tesla will continue for the next few years to STILL be the only EV maker that gets it. Sure there is a market for the Tesla sort of EV but I think there is also a market for smaller, cheaper, short range cars too. A bunch of small, cheap hatchbacks and crossovers still get sold and I don't see many people driving them coast to coast even if it is completely possible.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:50
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Three Olives posted:Because consumers are idiots, the average person that can afford a new electric car does not have a massive commute or really drive that much at all much less cross country. Range anxiety is not a technical problem, it’s an education problem not solved by sticking fast chargers out in the middle of nowhere. Reaaaaaaally? Then please tell me why Tesla put chargers in the middle of nowhere? Oh thats right, because Tesla as I said worked out that EV's were going nowhere unless range anxiety could be answered without handwaving about "education". "Can I drive my Tesla across bumfuck empty without worry?" "Why yes you can, here is our network of high speed chargers!" "Well okay then, I'll buy one even tho I'll never leave San-Fran!" See how it works in the real world? Handwave all you want about education but in reality the answer is infrastructure.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:58
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dissss posted:Sure there is a market for the Tesla sort of EV but I think there is also a market for smaller, cheaper, short range cars too. I'd keep an eye on this: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/25/honda-to-revive-the-fit-electric-with-186-miles-of-range-sub-20000-price-tag/
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Sep 5, 2018 23:04
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It should be pointed out that Tesla will cut you off from their superchargers after you use them too many times.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:08
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22 Eargesplitten posted:It should be pointed out that Tesla will cut you off from their superchargers after you use them too many times. "for your own protection"
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Sep 5, 2018 23:09
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80 mile range would be plenty. Oh wait a minute that's 40 miles in the cold. 30 miles, years later. 20 miles, years later. Etc. I'm totally getting a Bolt though it comes in chartreuse. How can I say no to that?
Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 23:14
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Reaaaaaaally? Then please tell me why Tesla put chargers in the middle of nowhere? And yet they put none of them in urban areas where you might actually need a rapid charger. You are giving Tesla an awful lot of credit for their supposed forward looking thinking and business smarts when while their cars may be "cool" they are burning through cash like a tire fire.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:19
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22 Eargesplitten posted:It should be pointed out that Tesla will cut you off from their superchargers after you use them too many times. Are you talking about people that were using them as their only method of charging?
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Sep 5, 2018 23:19
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Duck and Cover posted:80 mile range would be plenty. Oh wait a minute that's 40 in the cold. 30 years later. 20 years later. Etc. I'm totally getting a Bolt though it comes in chartreuse. How can I say no to that? I don't think many current model cars are going to last 20 years regardless of what they run on - once integrated systems like infotainment and SRS start going wrong they're simply not going to be possible to keep on the road for reasonable amounts of money.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:23
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22 Eargesplitten posted:It should be pointed out that Tesla will cut you off from their superchargers after you use them too many times. Name an example please. They have some terms and conditions about abuse, taxis etc, but no hard limit. Vlogger Bjørn Nyland has done something like 350 000 km across two cars, most of it on superchargers.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:25
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Three Olives posted:And yet they put none of them in urban areas where you might actually need a rapid charger. You are giving Tesla an awful lot of credit for their supposed forward looking thinking and business smarts when while their cars may be "cool" they are burning through cash like a tire fire. Yo Tesla deserves all kinds of poo poo but their charging strategy is one thing they are peerless in. They absolutely do put superchargers in urban areas, they're just prioritizing areas that have a lot of tesla owners. The closest charger to seattle is labeled an "urban supercharger", and the planned/underconstruction chargers nearby are in malls (Bellevue, north gate, u district) and a neighborhood shopping center (Issaquah). They're starting to put them where owners live now that they have them pretty well built out where owners go.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:26
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dissss posted:I don't think many current model cars are going to last 20 years regardless of what they run on - once integrated systems like infotainment and SRS start going wrong they're simply not going to be possible to keep on the road for reasonable amounts of money. Well then I'll buy a new car. Problem solved! I think most people create a hypothetical situation where an electric won't work without realizing how unlikely that situation is to occur. I should have used commas, it's not 30 years it's 30 miles in a couple years in the cold. Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 23:33
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Three Olives posted:And yet they put none of them in urban areas where you might actually need a rapid charger. You are giving Tesla an awful lot of credit for their supposed forward looking thinking and business smarts when while their cars may be "cool" they are burning through cash like a tire fire. I can name and verify half a dozen logical urban chargers in Sydney off the top of my head and I dont have a EV let alone the aburdity of false equivalence comparing their supercharging network to anything else they do.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:51
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Ola posted:Name an example please. They have some terms and conditions about abuse, taxis etc, but no hard limit. Vlogger Bjørn Nyland has done something like 350 000 km across two cars, most of it on superchargers. The YOSPOS Tesla mockthread has a former Tesla employee tell-all, pretty horrifying.
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Sep 6, 2018 00:20
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22 Eargesplitten posted:The YOSPOS Tesla mockthread has a former Tesla employee tell-all, pretty horrifying. Yet still no example of an owner being cutoff from charging without abusing the system to the detriment of other owners.
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Sep 6, 2018 00:22
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Speleothing posted:Half a page of people forgetting that the Bolt exists. dissss posted:Sure there is a market for the Tesla sort of EV but I think there is also a market for smaller, cheaper, short range cars too. ilkhan fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 00:23
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So here's a relatively light-hearted thing a Formula E reporter wrote about how easy Tesla could be hosed in Europe if someone bothered to have the right investment and strategy: https://medium.com/@piratemoggy/elon-musk-is-imploding-i-put-myself-forwards-in-his-place-96fa48b374df Although with Mercedes announcing their new big space tank it's maybe more prescient than I initially thought.
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Sep 6, 2018 00:51
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The road trip anecdotes always get me because we all know both by data and by personal experience that the average $40k+ luxury sedan/crossover isn't driven very far often if at all. We have set this range expectation because buying gas is gross and as such we generally want to avoid it, there is no reason we should expect it to set a benchmark for the range of a car that is charged to full every night. Is some suburban home developer in the 50s devised a system to automatically, safely and cleanly trickle 100 miles of gas into a car overnight for less money than filling up at a pump people would think you were crazy for spending a lot more money to keep a weeks worth of gas in your car because you hypothetically might want to take a road trip. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I can name and verify half a dozen logical urban chargers in Sydney off the top of my head and I dont have a EV let alone the aburdity of false equivalence comparing their supercharging network to anything else they do. That seems weird because Tesla says there is exactly one supercharger in the entirety of Sydney.
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Sep 6, 2018 01:16
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I got an ad for drive-up delivery of gasoline to your cars, amazingly enough. Now that's Full Service.
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Sep 6, 2018 01:24
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Three Olives posted:That seems weird because Tesla says there is exactly one supercharger in the entirety of Sydney. 3 in the Denver metro area (one at the service center so it doesn't show up on the website map, but is available), one in Boulder, and one in Colorado Springs. All very urban areas. 4 more planned for the Denver metro area. When I road tripped to Wisconsin there were two in Madison, and one in Oak Creek, also urban areas, not to mention that about half the chargers along the way were also in urban areas, not just truck stops.
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Sep 6, 2018 01:27
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[quote="Three Olives" post=""487682546"] That seems weird because Tesla says there is exactly one supercharger in the entirety of Sydney. [/quote] Two in service centres not listed, one in Penrith not listed (Sydney is BIG loving place), One at Eastern Creek raceway (LOL that surprised me last weekend). Non superchargers but Tesla Destination charging stations located in about 120 and growing other locations, usually Westfield shopping centers (oh wait, that's a useful). Supercharger stations along the main freeways between Sydney to Melbourne every 200 kms, also Syd to Brisbane / Melbourne to Adelaide, Cooma and even goddamn DUBBO (thinking about bumfuck nowhere...) Get the point yet, or you going to continue to insist Tesla haven't got this worked out?
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Sep 6, 2018 01:47
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Three Olives posted:And yet they put none of them in urban areas where you might actually need a rapid charger. There are 3 in Toronto proper alone. They’ve been adding urban ones for more than a year.
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Sep 6, 2018 01:52
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Two in service centres not listed, one in Penrith not listed (Sydney is BIG loving place), One at Eastern Creek raceway (LOL that surprised me last weekend). Non superchargers but Tesla Destination charging stations located in about 120 and growing other locations, usually Westfield shopping centers (oh wait, that's a useful). Yes, I am aware that Tesla is finally building urban super chargers after starting to charge for their use after years of hemorrhaging cash and continuing to do so at a staggering rate while the European automakers are about to throw a fuckton of money in urban fast chargers. My issue is people treating Tesla's little used interstate supercharger network as some sort of genius business move when there is little to no evidence that it provided any real dividends to their business which is teetering towards insolvency.
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Sep 6, 2018 02:08
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Hell there are 2x 8-bay, and 1x 12 bay SuperChargers within 55 miles of my house. And they are all on major interstate/cross city routes. How many public non-Tesla DC fast chargers (50kW or higher) are there in this same area? 3... but each only has a single CSS and Chademo connector each, and they are most definitely in urban areas.
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Sep 6, 2018 02:12
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Three Olives posted:Yes, I am aware that Tesla is finally building urban super chargers Three Olives posted:And yet they put none of them in urban areas Please post better.
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Sep 6, 2018 02:15
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Sweet 30+ new posts in the EV thread! Oh, wait, it's 3olives doing the stupid "poo poo all over Tesla thing". Again. Goons, if you did not yet figure it out 3olives is a lovely troll and disingenuous about everything, don't waist your time.
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Sep 6, 2018 03:30
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spandexcajun posted:Sweet 30+ new posts in the EV thread! Uh, this is one of the places he has a pretty balanced take on things.
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Sep 6, 2018 05:50
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22 Eargesplitten posted:The YOSPOS Tesla mockthread has a former Tesla employee tell-all, pretty horrifying. Total bullshit, got it. A thing that got some negative reactions is that the 90-pack gets throttled to 95 kW or thereabouts after a certain amount of supercharging. The 85 doesn't, not sure about the 100.
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Sep 6, 2018 05:52
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Three Olives posted:Because consumers are idiots, the average person that can afford a new electric car does not have a massive commute or really drive that much at all much less cross country. Range anxiety is not a technical problem, it’s an education problem not solved by sticking fast chargers out in the middle of nowhere. Range anxiety is only one part of the problems EVs have to overcome. Infrastructure and cost are bigger problems. Especially in cities (where and EV makes the most sense but is the hardest to make work as a daily). It might be different in the US, but if I'd buy an EV in my country I'd be left with a car that has the interior quality/sound proofing that equivalent to a economy car. Except I'm paying 4x the money for the pleasure of driving an EV. I won't ever see any savings on fuel that will offset the huge cost compared to what a car of equal comfort/quality would get me. I tried and loved the Renault Zoe, but unless you go for the absolute top trim with "leather" seats, it's lovely plastic and lovely fabric all over. I've never sat in a car that felt as cheap. For the same price I can get a top spec Mazda 6 and use the left over money to fuel it for years. Cars that aren't even comparable in anything except price.
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Sep 6, 2018 07:21
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MrOnBicycle posted:Range anxiety is only one part of the problems EVs have to overcome. Infrastructure and cost are bigger problems. Especially in cities (where and EV makes the most sense but is the hardest to make work as a daily). It might be different in the US, but if I'd buy an EV in my country I'd be left with a car that has the interior quality/sound proofing that equivalent to a economy car. Except I'm paying 4x the money for the pleasure of driving an EV. I won't ever see any savings on fuel that will offset the huge cost compared to what a car of equal comfort/quality would get me. Think of your situation as a point on a descending curve of cost. A few years ago, the economics was much worse for your case. In a few years, it will be much better.
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Sep 6, 2018 07:26
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Ola posted:Think of your situation as a point on a descending curve of cost. A few years ago, the economics was much worse for your case. In a few years, it will be much better. Which is exactly why I'm holding off on buying an EV until they become reasonably priced compared to an ICE car. Won't be buying any new ICE car neither. I'd rather save that money for when a nice EV shows up.
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Sep 6, 2018 07:41
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MrOnBicycle posted:Which is exactly why I'm holding off on buying an EV until they become reasonably priced compared to an ICE car. Won't be buying any new ICE car neither. I'd rather save that money for when a nice EV shows up. You're basically waiting for the used market to pick up. I think EV depreciation will be quite hard once supply is high and gradually better and better models are introduced. But right now, in Norway at least, they're holding up very well since demand is so high. If you want the most economical solution, become your username. 
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Sep 6, 2018 08:02
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Ola posted:You're basically waiting for the used market to pick up. I think EV depreciation will be quite hard once supply is high and gradually better and better models are introduced. But right now, in Norway at least, they're holding up very well since demand is so high. If you want the most economical solution, become your username. Maybe, but the cars aren't that good right now anyway. I don't mind buying something that's good and paying for it. What I don't like is overpaying for something that I won't be happy with. I am my username, good for the health and takes less time than finding a parking spot and the having to pay for it. 
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Sep 6, 2018 08:14
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Three Olives posted:My issue is people treating Tesla's little used interstate supercharger network as some sort of genius business move when there is little to no evidence that it provided any real dividends to their business which is teetering towards insolvency. I don't know why I'm bothering with 3O but it was a good business decision because it provided a counter for consumers' irrational range anxiety you are right that the vast majority of consumers do not actually need the supercharger network at all, and most only need it very occasionally, but the fact that it exists allows for a better case to be made for ev adoption. consumers' self-perceived needs aren't necessarily rational! tesla very intelligently looked at the current market, looked at EV adoption, and made a big loving list of barriers to purchase. one of these barriers is that people are worried they will run out of electricity and be stuck somewhere. what's the better solution? tell people that "haha that's not real" or build out an infrastructure solution that gets rid of that barrier to purchase? on the other hand they forgot to figure out a solution to one of the barriers to purchase which is "car is not delivered"
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Sep 6, 2018 12:19
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I don't know why I'm bothering with 3O but it was a good business decision because it provided a counter for consumers' irrational range anxiety See the problem you start with is that Tesla is a good business, it is not, Tesla is nearly insolvent and being propped up in part by selling consumers things that do not exist and may never exist given Tesla’s finances.
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Sep 6, 2018 13:56
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Three Olives posted:See the problem you start with is that Tesla is a good business, it is not, Tesla is nearly insolvent and being propped up in part by selling consumers things that do not exist and may never exist given Tesla’s finances. Stop with the C-SPAM crap. Tesla are not nearly insolvent and if the guidance is even half accurate - and almost every legit report says Tesla WILL make 51,000 Model 3's so it looking highly likely, let alone the continued sales of X and S meaning Tesla is going to be producing close to 68,000 cars in Q3 - https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ - then the cash burn is going to be very much reduced in Q3 - capital costs are going to be noticably down, revenue will be up by anything close to 500 million. 2.8 Billion revenue in Model 3 alone if the average price of 56,000 USD is to be believed (and it appears ot be correct) quote:Goons, if you did not yet figure it out 3olives is a lovely troll and disingenuous about everything, don't waist your time. Figured that one out long ago. It's fun watching him dig down this time.
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Sep 6, 2018 14:13
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*Looks in his garage* Nope. There’s still a Tesla there. It exists. I drove it to Atlanta and back. Try that in a BEV-only i3.
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Sep 6, 2018 14:24
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Three Olives posted:See the problem you start with is that Tesla is a good business, it is not, Tesla is nearly insolvent and being propped up in part by selling consumers things that do not exist and may never exist given Tesla’s finances. being "a good business" (whatever that very nebulous term may mean to you) is not the same thing as making a good business decision
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Sep 6, 2018 14:28
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Three Olives posted:See the problem you start with is that Tesla is a good business, it is not, Tesla is nearly insolvent and being propped up in part by selling consumers things that do not exist and may never exist given Tesla’s finances. Counterpoint: Tesla is really good, Superchargers are really good and it's awesome how it seems to make people mad. Jealous much?
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Sep 6, 2018 14:34
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A Tesla almost ran me over just now. Pack it in, Elonailures.
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Sep 6, 2018 14:59
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