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Well I made Vijayanagar into a totally failed state without even having to fight more than 1 or 2 easy battles in my Mysore test game  Mysore is going to be really fun next patch with the new marathas reform, unless they put the reform at tier 1 or 2 (to conflict with the existing Poligars reform) then you will be getting a total of 5% discipline and 10% infantry power just from government reforms, on top of your morale, discipline and fire bonuses from NIs and then all the regular stuff from idea groups. Pro tip for anyone trying this out, make sure you make Madurai into a vassal, since reconquest CBs also give 0 cost for "return province" wargoals it means when you declare on Vijayanagar for your own cores you can also give Madurai all their own provinces back, then diplo annex them, other than making your diplo tech complete garbage for a while this leaves you with a nice 150 development. Virtually all of Vijayanagar and Bahmanis territory is full of releasable cores so you can vassal abuse your way through a huge chunk of territory before you even need to think about going for direct conquest, which is particularly nice as one of your government reforms also doubles the amount of forcelimit you gain from vassals. This definitely makes up in some respect for the lack of awesome conquest missions which the majors get.
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Sep 19, 2018 17:27
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The Marathas Council reform is on the same level as the other Estate influencer reforms.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:41
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Groogy posted:The Marathas Council reform is on the same level as the other Estate influencer reforms. Tier 4, then; "Administrative Cadre". Bit of a shame, I like the extra admin policy. Also slightly disappointing that you lose your ability to recruit advisors, once again leaving Indian Hindus only able to access admin advisors after you take this reform (no nobles = no diplomats, pre-reform Marathas also let you recruit commandants) RabidWeasel fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 20:14
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About to fail a One Faith because I didn't notice that Spain and Portugal seem to have stopped converting their own colonies a few decades ago. Also, lost defender of the faith a few times from random -5 prestige events because there are always 5+ catholic countries at 100 prestige. Napkin math tells me the world will be 100% catholic in 1824. Feels bad, man.
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Sep 20, 2018 01:43
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RabidWeasel posted:Also slightly disappointing that you lose your ability to recruit advisors, once again leaving Indian Hindus only able to access admin advisors after you take this reform Before: Estates is just free candy! No weighting between actions, just click for stuff! poo poo sucks! Now: Aw man now I can't have this thing anymore if I take this other thing? poo poo sucks
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Sep 20, 2018 08:46
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Normal estates still seem to be all about hammering the influence options as soon as possible for the monarch power, gold and 40 tradition general.
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Sep 20, 2018 09:09
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Groogy posted:Before: Estates is just free candy! No weighting between actions, just click for stuff! poo poo sucks! 
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Sep 20, 2018 10:03
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I think Paradox have finally realized why players are so negative about estates. Since they removed the need for them to control provinces game play is much better and in my opinion, it all comes down to annoyances. Lets be real here, nobody cared about the 25 % autonomy floor THAT much. What they did care about was having to pause the game and cross-reference 3+ map overlays (Estates, States, Development, Trade Goods, Trade...) , clicking each province to find how much Controlled Land, Loyalty and Influence would change. After every other war. This was, above all else, plain annoying. But the key here is that this wasn't the only thing annoying about estates. If we compare Estates to the Tributary system we can really see the difference. As a base you get three different estates, each one having three values (Land, Loyalty, Influence) that can all be relevant and at least two of these will change fairly often, either through player interaction or events. Now we can disregard Controlled Land, but this still leaves 6 different values to track. These are not just values where Higher = Better either. Loyalty has cutoff points, so 40.0 is fine, while 39.9 is bad. Influence also has cutoffs where 39.9 means you don't get to use most interactions. But also there are several tiers to Influence, where 75 makes interactions significantly stronger than at 74.9. And of course Loyalty and Influence are not independent. Higher Influence yields stronger effect from Loyalty bonus/malus. Keeping track of 6 values where decimals matter isn't enough, though. Each estate has between 5 to 7 interactions depending on ideas/religion etc that you might like to use several of, that have a cooldown of either: 10, 15, 20, 25 or 30 years. Thankfully you can set a Message option for when an Estates Modifier expires. Unfortunately this doesn't work on the most important interactions. But even if there were reminders for Demand Power Points or Ask Contribution, there is still the annoyance of having to make sure all the numbers are the Correct Value before you make your demands. Because you're not keeping Loyalty and Influence in your head, you need to check that it is above the best cutoff you can get since 74.9 is NOT acceptable. You end up doing this quite often too, since even though all three Demand Power Points have the same cooldown, they end up out of sync quickly due to events interfering with your numbers. Speaking of events. Do I need to include a screenshot? The estate events are often multiple choice, with each choice potentially affecting 4 numbers for 2 different estates with 3 variations, in opposite directions (+inf, + loyalty & -inf, - loyalty) together with a wildcard extra effect like +1 production in a random province. It is not possible to keep Influence and Loyalty in your head while playing the game. When you get a complex event, you must pause and potentially go through ALL loyalty and influence AND availability of cooldowns AND duration of any other event modifiers present (and find out if you actually want +1 production in Bhagalpur). These event modifiers are of course also not standard duration and vary quite a bit so you can have multiple active simultaneously and expiring at different points. Compare this to Tributaries. You can have an unlimited amount of Tributaries, each with four different values (Opinion, Liberty Desire, Development, Trust). For the most part though, we need only care about Liberty Desire. While the other 3 affect LD, they don't tend to fluctuate massively without interference. So really you're tracking one value for each Tributary. Liberty Desire has two important values, where above 50 means disloyal and 100 means rebellion. There is no massive difference between the intermediate values, in fact any value below 50 is just as good as any other. In practice you can simply sort your Tributaries by LD to get a simple and quick overview to find anyone above 50. That's all you need. You can then deal with lowering LD at your own leisure with very few cooldowns or hard limits. Tributaries have 7 interactions which stop working if LD is above 50. They do not scale to LD in any other way. In fact, they scale only to development or income, which will only occasionally change, and you can have notifications for if they go to war if you wish to intervene. There are no tiers, although I believe power points get rounded down, meaning you get a cutoff at 33 development for actually demanding power points (since that is the minimum for 1.0 points). The amount of tribute provided scales in a more linear manner where Higher = Better. There are also no cooldowns on interactions (except the nominal one year for switching tribute type). There are interactions that can lower or increase LD and you are free to use them whenever, however many times you like as long as Tributaries/you have enough resources. There is no need for reminders since tribute is collected automatically. Forgetting to switch tribute type for a few years is not a direct loss, since you were still receiving some form of tribute (if not the one you wanted). Tributary related events have small amounts of flavour text and are generally simple choices. The only annoying thing about them is vagueness (the one's giving your tributary an event doesn't explain what their event entails). Just imagine if every Estate Event was just a simple +-X Influence AND/OR +-X Loyalty, where some events would let you choose which estate the effect would apply to and others wouldn't. poo poo, imagine not having to worry about expiration dates or cooldowns! You want 50 Mil Power? Sure, that's +25 Noble Influence. You want another 50 Mil Power? Sure, but now you're at 50 Noble Influence, you want another 50? Go for it, but that means you're not getting the Advisor or the Leader for +25 without a Noble rebellion. You're gonna have to pay $SOMETHING to lower that influence! TLDR: The Tributary system is great and every system should be more like it, especially Estates since it's annoying to keep track of all the numbers.
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Sep 20, 2018 13:21
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Counter-point: You just suck at accounting and/or refuse to have that little menu to the side track your estate numbers for when events pop up.
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Sep 20, 2018 13:29
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The outliner?
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Sep 20, 2018 13:43
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Stopped reading at cross referencing maps because who the heck does that. Give your new states estates if u wanna or don’t, whatever. Groogs please tell me how to get “One king to rule them all” in this patch (or next patch if it’s impossible in this one).
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Sep 20, 2018 13:44
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"this system sucks because it makes playing well is a huge hassle" "lol its fine just play like poo poo brah"
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Sep 20, 2018 13:45
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Groogy posted:The outliner? Yes, that.
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Sep 20, 2018 13:46
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Senor Dog posted:Stopped reading at cross referencing maps because who the heck does that. Give your new states estates if u wanna or don’t, whatever. Bugged if you don't own Dharma. Fixed in next patch.
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Sep 20, 2018 13:46
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Senor Dog posted:Stopped reading at cross referencing maps because who the heck does that. Give your new states estates if u wanna or don’t, whatever. (slaps down my nobles at random) how come I just lost all my trade bonuses and my manpower barely improved
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Sep 20, 2018 14:36
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MaxieSatan posted:(slaps down my nobles at random) how come I just lost all my trade bonuses and my manpower barely improved I mean, aside from giving merchants centres of trade it and nobles forts, the rest doesn't super matter
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Sep 20, 2018 14:55
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Sage Grimm posted:Counter-point: You just suck at accounting and/or refuse to have that little menu to the side track your estate numbers for when events pop up. This two sentence dismissal is pretty weaksauce for how thoroughly that dude described the issue. I happen to agree with what he described as the annoyance of estates. It's just tons and tons of fiddle and seems to have originally been explicitly created for peacetime micro.
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Sep 20, 2018 15:02
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Senor Dog posted:Stopped reading at cross referencing maps because who the heck does that. Give your new states estates if u wanna or don’t, whatever. I guess it's not really relevant with the patch changes, but I don't think I'm the only one who tries to optimize at least a little bit. Like not giving Nobles and Burghers provinces with valuable trade goods. Also trying to give Nobles 1 1 3 provinces instead of 5 3 4. It's not major things, but since Estate owned provinces tend to last the entire game I kinda feel compelled to make the best of it. I'll concede that I've only looked at this from a pretty try-hard perspective.
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Sep 20, 2018 15:07
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What fiddling are you doing that requires a ton of it? The biggest fiddle I found is getting Burghers up to enough influence so I can use their powers and that's like a once every 100 years sort of thing, depending on big your country has grown. And many of your decisions from estate events boil down to 'is it going to decrease loyalty below a certain number or increase influence above a certain number?'
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Sep 20, 2018 15:08
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Sage Grimm posted:What fiddling are you doing that requires a ton of it? The biggest fiddle I found is getting Burghers up to enough influence so I can use their powers and that's like a once every 100 years sort of thing, depending on big your country has grown. And many of your decisions from estate events boil down to 'is it going to decrease loyalty below a certain number or increase influence above a certain number?' The fiddling that he described in the pretty lengthy block of text that you replied to with "git gud" Here's a good part quote:As a base you get three different estates, each one having three values (Land, Loyalty, Influence) that can all be relevant and at least two of these will change fairly often, either through player interaction or events. Now we can disregard Controlled Land, but this still leaves 6 different values to track. These are not just values where Higher = Better either. Loyalty has cutoff points, so 40.0 is fine, while 39.9 is bad. Influence also has cutoffs where 39.9 means you don't get to use most interactions. But also there are several tiers to Influence, where 75 makes interactions significantly stronger than at 74.9. And of course Loyalty and Influence are not independent. Higher Influence yields stronger effect from Loyalty bonus/malus. Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 15:09
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The complaints are laughable when you consider the game is entirely about balancing numbers and keeping track of a thousand things at once. How much aggressive expansion are you taking after the peace deal, can you handle being overextended by this percentage, do you have enough troops to keep the AI off your back and is your manpower going to last through this war, what's the diplomatic situation do I need to stuff some diplomats elsewhere so I can make bigger friends or take advantage of an unbalanced war, are you going to need to worry about loans can you print money instead, should I worry about getting the next tech level or put my monarch points into my ideas, is this building going to pay for itself, when should I embrace an institution or seed it in my country, do I need to create a navy and should I focus on galleys, lights or heavies, oops an event popped requiring me to consider whether I want to lose diplo points or a point of stability, here's another that makes me lose 10% max manpower for a decade but gets me 1% professionalism and 5% discipline versus losing both 25 prestige and 1% professionialism? All these things you can worry about being wrong and paralyze you with endless fiddling, as the guy appears to be. As you get familiar with the systems, however, you build heuristics or methods to get to a good enough solution without spending lots of time at it. And they are further streamlined as you play more and gain more information from other sources like the wiki or other players. But you need to start from your own knowledge base or else you're going to be blindly following rules without knowing the reasoning behind it. So yeah, git bad so you can git gud. Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 15:39
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EU is just a giant spreadsheet on a map of the world.
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Sep 20, 2018 16:01
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Sage Grimm posted:The complaints are laughable when you consider the game is entirely about balancing numbers and keeping track of a thousand things at once. How much aggressive expansion are you taking after the peace deal, can you handle being overextended by this percentage, do you have enough troops to keep the AI off your back and is your manpower going to last through this war, what's the diplomatic situation do I need to stuff some diplomats elsewhere so I can make bigger friends or take advantage of an unbalanced war, are you going to need to worry about loans can you print money instead, should I worry about getting the next tech level or put my monarch points into my ideas, is this building going to pay for itself, when should I embrace an institution or seed it in my country, do I need to create a navy and should I focus on galleys, lights or heavies, oops an event popped requiring me to consider whether I want to lose diplo points or a point of stability, here's another that makes me lose 10% max manpower for a decade but gets me 1% professionalism and 5% discipline versus losing both 25 prestige and 1% professionialism? I think all those decisions you listed are a lot simpler than handling estates. I've got over 2000 hours played and I think I'm pretty good at managing my empires, but estates still feel like a big needlessly complicated mess. A lot of the time I just end up ignoring them as much as I can because the rewards just aren't worth the hassle.
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Sep 20, 2018 16:12
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Fister Roboto posted:I think all those decisions you listed are a lot simpler than handling estates. I've got over 
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Sep 20, 2018 16:16
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Sage Grimm posted:What fiddling are you doing that requires a ton of it? The biggest fiddle I found is getting Burghers up to enough influence so I can use their powers and that's like a once every 100 years sort of thing, depending on big your country has grown. And many of your decisions from estate events boil down to 'is it going to decrease loyalty below a certain number or increase influence above a certain number?' Lets take an example. The cooldown for Demanding Military Power is up, you've been checking on it every 2-3 years because you can't remember the precise year, having other things in your head, but now it's ready. You want to get the 150 Military Points if at all possible, after all you only get the chance every 20 years. You only have 40 Influence which would only give you 50 MIL. Not ideal. Fortunately, there are several interactions that can get you higher: +15 from an Advisor, +20 from a General +10 from Call Diet. You use them all and get your 150 MIL. Cool. You keep playing the game and every X years you get an Advisor/General and every 20 years you get your 150 MIL for the next 400 years. Except it just doesn't work out like that in my games. Somewhere I get a good event giving Loyalty, so I don't need to use Call Diet. Later I end up using Call Diet because I'm losing a war and need to demand Manpower. Suddenly Call Diet and Demand MIL Power are out of sync, so I have to wait for Call Diet before Demanding, except I get a bad event lowering Loyalty, which I can't afford because I'm at war and Maintenance is killing me, the Nobles own lots of land and I have 5 War Exhaustion already pushing revolt risk high. I need to use Call Diet now, except I have 2 modifiers increasing Noble Influence by 10 each for another 10 and 2 years, respectively and Call Diet would guarantee a Noble Disaster. If I wait another 2 years I can use Call Diet then though. Of course then I won't have it for Demand MIL Power and... Now add another two estates with similar situations and suddenly you're having to pay attention to a lot of numbers fairly often. It's much less of a problem now that Disasters don't start ticking at 80. Having to do the math for if you could afford to sit at 80/85 Influence until the +Modifier ran out was pretty bad. If you're willing to settle for good enough, this is probably not an issue, but I can't help but feel exasperated whenever I see a multi-choice Estate Event because I know I'm gonna have to look over all Estate Loyalty/Influence and their current Modifiers and Cooldowns before I can make a choice. E: Maybe an Event will make things clearer?  This isn't the most complex event, but it's not great. We have the potential to A) Lose Loyalty B) Gain Loyalty & Lose Influence C) Lose Loyalty & Lose Influence Can I afford to lose Loyalty? (and if not, can you afford to use Call Diet to offset this?) Do I need to gain Loyalty? Follow up: Can I afford the 100 ducats needed? Can I afford to lose Influence? (If I drop below 40 Influence I lose the ability to use ALL interactions but demands) Do I need to Lose Influence (Is it too close for comfort or preventing interactions) I also need to ensure I don't have any Modifiers currently lowering my influence so I don't get a surprise Disaster a few years later when it runs out and I hit 100 Influence. L0VE fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 16:17
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How is that any more complicated than figuring out coalitions in Europe? You have to calculate your truces and when each runs out, relations with everyone with 50+ AE and how those relations will change with the new land you are taking (border friction, claims, etc), possibility of getting excommunicated, unlawful HRE land, and a million other things
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Sep 20, 2018 16:49
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I'd be more agreeable if it was necessary to punch the most monarch points out of your estates as possible. It isn't. 150 divided by 240 months is 0.625 per month or less than what a +1 advisor would give you over the same time period. The cost of that advisor is more direct but neither is the estate 'free.' Even when you purposefully aim for 100% influence because you're a god emperor and can juggle just the right amount of influence to stay out of disaster, 200 points is an increase of 0.83 per month. It's nice to have but you can definitely take a smaller amount for less risk and hassle. Now if you're punching money out of the burghers, you have to compare it to the debase currency (half your development * (1 + trade efficiency) ducats for 2 corruption) and the loan (same number of ducats for its return plus interest in 5 years, 0.1 inflation) options. Ditto with punching manpower out of the nobility and what you would get from professionalism (2x yearly manpower for -5%). Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 16:52
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Firebatgyro posted:How is that any more complicated than figuring out coalitions in Europe? I don't particularly enjoy calculating truces and keeping track of all the people close to joining coalitions either to be honest. I don't know of a way to fix it, but I do think Estates could be made less annoying since Tributaries avoid almost all problems estates have.
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Sep 20, 2018 16:53
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Sage Grimm posted:I'd be more agreeable if it was necessary to punch the most monarch points out of your estates as possible. It isn't. 150 divided by 240 months is 0.625 per month or less than what a +1 advisor would give you over the same time period. The cost of that advisor is more direct but neither is the estate 'free.' Even when you purposefully aim for 100% influence because you're a god emperor and can juggle just the right amount of influence to stay out of disaster, 200 points is an increase of 0.83 per month. It's nice to have but you can definitely take a smaller amount for less risk and hassle. Of course it's not necessary, but that's not really point. It sucks to have a system where you can miss out on something just because you forgot about it or weren't paying attention. That's not strategy, that's just an attention tax (and this game has too many of those already). Instead of having to click a button every 20 years, it should just give you an amount automatically based on loyalty and influence. Kind of like tributaries. At the very least it would be nice to have the option to pause the game when the button becomes available again.
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Sep 20, 2018 17:54
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Actually can we just have the ability to set a timer on the game so that it pauses on a specific date? That would be extremely useful.
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Sep 20, 2018 17:57
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For anyone who enjoys playing in the Americas, but dislikes waiting for Euros before fun is allowed, there is an exploit in this patch to get rid of the Primitive tag. Just start as any nation in South or Central America, when one of the Totemist or Animist tribes migrate into vision, No CB them, siege them down and offer Force Religion to them. As soon as you turn Totemist/Animist you lose the Primitive tag and can now embrace institutions, get full ducats from gold etc. Unfortunately does not seem to work the reverse way. I even tried Totemist->Nauhatl->Totemist but no dice. Can be done (almost) guaranteed by 1445 if you play in South America but only in theory for Central America (might take a lot of restarts) since the closest native doesn't want to migrate south on their first jump. Others are 3-4 jumps away which is 15-20 years and a large amount of luck. If you want to, you can seed and embrace feudalism and renaissance, then form Inca/take the Lima province which turns you back to Inti. You keep the institutions, but can now reform your religion. If you force convert an OPM you can even reform off of them! I didn't do this because I prefer the money from gold, though. I thought this was gonna be super OP but having to seed two full institutions in mountains took a massive amount of points so I'm unlikely to be equal to Euros anyway. I'm rich as hell, though!
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Sep 20, 2018 18:24
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Groogy posted:Before: Estates is just free candy! No weighting between actions, just click for stuff! poo poo sucks! I wasn't commenting on balance, more that having your unique regional content replace strong but boring interactions (such as cheaper advisors) with more interesting-but-fiddly ones makes you feel like you're missing out even if they're balanced in and of themselves. Eastern tech states and Muslims already had access to 4 different estates which all give access to different advisors, which seems to suggest that having lots of advisor-granting estates is fine. Every estate introduced before this patch gave the option to hire some kind of advisor so the Jains in particular feel like weird outliers (especially with their interactions of Get Some Money With Drawbacks, Lose 2 Corruption, and Get One Development). Yeah you can squeeze a lot of invisible cash out of them by keeping them happy for the province tax bonus but they don't feel anything like any of the other estates, and that's both good and bad. RabidWeasel fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 20:29
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France were doing great and getting their blob on right up until I allied them. Then they very quickly utterly collapsed with their neighbors chaining wars. Oddly satisfying somehow.
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Sep 20, 2018 22:13
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Wait, why does forming Russia as Novgorod just make you into a kingdom?? This is pretty drat lame
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Sep 20, 2018 23:54
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Is it possible for France to get the entirety of the Burgundian inheritance if they have a royal marriage with Burgundy?
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Sep 21, 2018 00:13
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no france is banned from the royal marriage route Otherwise choose one random country that: Has a royal marriage with our country At least one of: - Is part of the Holy Roman Empire - Is Castile and Spain does not exist - Is Spain Owns at least 4 non-colony provinces Is not France
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Sep 21, 2018 00:28
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They can get it if they’re the emperor though!
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Sep 21, 2018 00:29
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Estates are crazy useful in multiplayer. Single player, sure, you can chump the AI without them well enough, but in mp it is so so useful to press every favor you can out of estates at all times. Half-price ministers? Extra ships? A bucket full of cash from the burghers? Amazingly good stuff when you have another player bordering you and primed to kill you the moment he feels strong enough.
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Sep 21, 2018 00:48
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Maybe it would feel less like that if estates were on more of a gradient. Missing out on 150 because you were only at 73 influence wouldn't be as frustrating if you were getting 140 at 73 instead of 100.
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Sep 21, 2018 02:42
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Fister Roboto posted:I think all those decisions you listed are a lot simpler than handling estates. I've got over 2000 hours played and I think I'm pretty good at managing my empires, but estates still feel like a big needlessly complicated mess. A lot of the time I just end up ignoring them as much as I can because the rewards just aren't worth the hassle. you never actually engaged with the system for any length of time, then there isn't anything complicated about them - trade is more difficult to understand than estates, even. give high manpower and worthless provinces to nobles, high tax and worthless provinces to clergy, and high trade provinces to merchants. click buttons every few years for rewards and don't go over 80 influence unless it's just for a year or so. that's, uh, it. that's all you ever needed to do.
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Sep 21, 2018 11:54
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