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This trade system sounds absolutely excellent and I have to say I didn't expect even more big updates to be included in this patch. Really happy about piracy being reworked from a clunky way to try to force contiguous borders to something that makes real sense. Possibly more hyped for this than anything else in the patch, it's a close one. wiegieman posted:I never liked length based value systems. 
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Sep 27, 2018 16:23
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Darkrenown posted:Well, OK:  Does anyone have a time machine I can use to transport to when this update comes out? ps wiz and pdx crew i'll qa test for free
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Sep 27, 2018 16:26
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Gyshall posted:
Take your Waitmate
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Sep 27, 2018 16:29
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Splicer posted:Why would you make this your capital Expansion potential  Although to be honest I just fired the event there to take the picture.
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Sep 27, 2018 16:29
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Chalks posted:Really happy about piracy being reworked from a clunky way to try to force contiguous borders to something that makes real sense. I mean I enjoy the concept of "your border regions are lawless and more susceptible to pirates" and hope that some fashion of that stays in the game. I get that trade routes are the focus but I also like the ideas of pirates raiding (if not destroying) your mining outposts and building bases with everything that they steal e: tbh I'd be totally down for a piracy DLC that fleshed out pirates immensely and maybe made them become marauders
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Sep 27, 2018 16:34
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ChickenWing posted:I mean I enjoy the concept of "your border regions are lawless and more susceptible to pirates" and hope that some fashion of that stays in the game. It seems pretty easy conceptually: just make it so trade value loss from piracy in a system goes up the more unclaimed systems link to it.
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Sep 27, 2018 16:38
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ChickenWing posted:I mean I enjoy the concept of "your border regions are lawless and more susceptible to pirates" and hope that some fashion of that stays in the game. I get that trade routes are the focus but I also like the ideas of pirates raiding (if not destroying) your mining outposts and building bases with everything that they steal It's not about border regions though (and if it were it'd be unmanageable). It's about single barren systems in the middle of your empire that spawn pirates because they don't have a starbase. The solution is to always leave gaps of 3 or 4 empty systems to avoid the issue. It's very silly, I can have a vast uncolonised frontier of habitable worlds and not a single pirate in sight, but if I leave a single worthless system within my territory without a little beacon saying "this belongs to me" then it's pirate central. I can see where the idea came from but in reality it just means that my tendril like expansion is occasionally slightly annoying because I have to grab the odd extra system to so that it's not isolated. The new system on the other hand, where pirates actually spawn within colonised territory due to a combination of lawlessness and high trade value, is completely sensible and only adds to an already interesting mechanic. GunnerJ posted:It seems pretty easy conceptually: just make it so trade value loss from piracy in a system goes up the more unclaimed systems link to it. Don't mind this as an implementation, long vulnerable sections of trade routes should be more problematic and it makes sense that colonies would develop along trade routes from a flavour perspective too. Would actually be neat to see other benifits of having trade routes pass near your systems instead of just through them. Chalks fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 16:45
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Darkrenown posted:Well, OK: Devouring Swarms should get free food instead of having to pay to clear it.
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Sep 27, 2018 16:52
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Devouring Swarms should get free food instead of having to pay to clear it. Probably gets an event to devour instead of bomb them?
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Sep 27, 2018 16:57
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Devouring Swarms should get free food instead of having to pay to clear it.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:09
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Do Devouring Swarms eat old rotting corpses? I thought liked fresh meat? It's in the name, devouring swarms eat everything. They're not Food Critic Swarms.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:12
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Do Devouring Swarms eat old rotting corpses? I thought liked fresh meat? Organic material is organic material.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:14
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Protein is protein/biomass is biomass, you can spawn more drones from rotten sludge just as easy as from a gourmet meal.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:14
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Not that I wouldn't enjoy some kind of hive mind that is extremely picky about what it eats.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:16
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OwlFancier posted:Not that I wouldn't enjoy some kind of hive mind that is extremely picky about what it eats. Only eats chicken fingers and cheesy potatoes.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:17
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While we're on the topic, Devouring Swarms really should be able to eat planets into ecological collapse or something. Give them big bonuses to production for the first 50 years they own a planet or whatever, then no bonuses for another 25, and then it turns into a Tomb World with the Depleted modifier that gives -75% to minerals/food/energy production. Force constant expansion as the food keeps running out in what you already own.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:20
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Rename them cravers while at it? 
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Sep 27, 2018 17:21
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Truga posted:Rename them cravers while at it? you spelled Zuul wrong
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Sep 27, 2018 17:22
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Devouring Swarms should get free food instead of having to pay to clear it. That's something I already spoke to Wiz about a while back. We can have effects on clearing stuff now, so I could in theory make it super cheap for Swarms to clear them AND get a bunch of Food for doing it. The problem is, this is just a [not so] quick update of an old event because I thought it would be cool and the event as written doesn't fire for Gestalt Consciousnesses. If I have time I will change it more though.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:30
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One thing I like about this new trade system is that I don't have to put a bloody trade hub in every single system, and this is also kind of the first emergence of multi system infrastructure in Stellaris. There's nothing else that really works that way currently. Something that I would like, incidentally, is if trade routes had sublight/FTL speed boosts for all ships travelling along them, scaling with trade value. Or, possibly, if trade hubs projected that effect to systems in their area of effect based on how much trade value is passing through them. So your core systems in a trade heavy empire become quite fast to move through, representing navigational experience and infrastructure.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:32
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Ya could also see the opposite with congestion being a problem
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Sep 27, 2018 17:38
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If you've got so much space traffic that you're running out of space to space ship in, I think you might be having a different kind of problem. Namely that your space shipping has to contend with its own gravity well.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:40
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OwlFancier posted:If you've got so much space traffic that you're running out of space to space ship in, I think you might be having a different kind of problem. Warp lane entry points are smaller than space that's even before you get into gateways and wormholes
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Sep 27, 2018 17:42
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I mean, mechanically I think it would be better for empires to have better infrastructure as a reward for developing rather than the opposite. And it would solve the problem of large empires being a bit cumbersome to navigate through, provided you develop them right, also gives you another consideration about where to route your trade.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:44
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Pigbuster posted:Dev diary will be a little late, so Martin gave some bonus tweets: I know that this is meant to represent stuff like specialized lab equipment, but in my head I picture it as my nerd researchers demanding a monthly allotment of space Funko pops Darkrenown posted:Well, OK: This is fantastic. I love the freedom the new planet system gives for events like this, it just makes it so obvious how limiting tiles were. Trade looks great too, I can see that possibly making the commerce tradition tree a lot more interesting and it gives a lot of options for cool civics. It occurred to me that a trade based megastructure would be cool, and that idea evolved into maybe a midgame sort of uhh, mini megastructure if you will that would serve as the galactic market trade hub and also an auxiliary trade collection point. Something to work toward and the first empire to build it gets the market hub, but everyone else can get a lesser effect by building their own hub later on. I would prefer a market hub that has to be actively built over one that's randomly selected as was described in the market dev diary.
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Sep 27, 2018 17:52
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Gadzuko posted:I know that this is meant to represent stuff like specialized lab equipment, but in my head I picture it as my nerd researchers demanding a monthly allotment of space Funko pops Look, he's only got 3 of the 5 Fanatic Purifiers, he needs to collect the whole set. And the guy in the next cubicle just wants more Blorg pops. No, more. Still not enough.
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Sep 27, 2018 18:00
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Gadzuko posted:I know that this is meant to represent stuff like specialized lab equipment, but in my head I picture it as my nerd researchers demanding a monthly allotment of space Funko pops
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Sep 27, 2018 18:45
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Trade looks really cool and good! I can't wait to...Wiz posted:We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes. Dealing with Old Pirates was the worst. So bad that I ended up going into observer mode at the start of every game to check to see if I had any xenophobic fallen empires near by. It's incredibly frustrating that they don't allow you to claim systems next to them but have no issue with pirates constantly popping up in the vacant border systems. The other big thing I was really curious about but we didn't get word on- can we raid enemy trade routes while at war, or maybe even not explicitly at war? Breaking a trade route by taking a vital station sounds cool and fun, but It would also be neat to be able to declare a war (or just "hostilities") in order to just plain steal trade goods. Let your fleet be a pirate fleet. Funding privateers that maybe drain some trade into your empire from poorly defended routes seems like a neat option to include in an espionage expansion.
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Sep 27, 2018 18:46
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It does seem a little odd that gestalt empires wouldn't have trade routes, trade value perhaps not, but the notion of collecting stuff and sending it to the homeworld for processing doesn't seem like it should be limited to non-gestalt empires? I would have thought that instead the difference would be where you get your "trade value" equivalent resource from, possibly from resource gathering jobs rather than high upkeep citizen jobs. Or heck, maybe a flat income from population and the "trade route" is more of an infrastructure connection for the hive consciousness, more in the form of relays which your rogue drones keep taking apart to bolster their own network. Failure to provide a certain level of connectivity (ship a certain amount of... brain...value... back to the homeworld relative to your population) gives you productivity problems. Essentially similar to the servitor morale mechanic. It's a cool mechanic and it'd be a shame to not have it as a gestalt, especially as how it's generated would affect a lot about how you lay out your routes and what you get from it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 18:52
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Gadzuko posted:It occurred to me that a trade based megastructure would be cool, and that idea evolved into maybe a midgame sort of uhh, mini megastructure if you will that would serve as the galactic market trade hub and also an auxiliary trade collection point. Something to work toward and the first empire to build it gets the market hub, but everyone else can get a lesser effect by building their own hub later on. I would prefer a market hub that has to be actively built over one that's randomly selected as was described in the market dev diary. Wiz tweeted or posted it somewhere, but the hub's no longer random, it's evolved into a bidding system.
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Sep 27, 2018 19:04
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Darkrenown posted:That's something I already spoke to Wiz about a while back. We can have effects on clearing stuff now, so I could in theory make it super cheap for Swarms to clear them AND get a bunch of Food for doing it. The problem is, this is just a [not so] quick update of an old event because I thought it would be cool and the event as written doesn't fire for Gestalt Consciousnesses. If I have time I will change it more though. This is cool and good and so are you. OwlFancier posted:It does seem a little odd that gestalt empires wouldn't have trade routes, trade value perhaps not, but the notion of collecting stuff and sending it to the homeworld for processing doesn't seem like it should be limited to non-gestalt empires? I agree. It seems like a really interesting and powerful system, but it's also difficult to see how the transference of luxury items would affect a species that is incapable of experiencing happiness. I would hope that gestalt empires would have some other means of compensating for the apparent loss in energy generation. Perhaps instead of generating currency gestalt empires use trade routes to generate research, and stuff on the borders represents particulalry interesting or novel sources of inspiration. It's probably too late to change but it seems like a fun mechanic.
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Sep 27, 2018 19:12
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Darkrenown posted:Wiz tweeted or posted it somewhere, but the hub's no longer random, it's evolved into a bidding system. Oh, that's good. I always prefer that the player gets some kind of agency over pure RNG. I also really like the idea of gestalts using trade routes as a sort of neural hub extension rather than an economy, that's a cool concept.
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Sep 27, 2018 19:14
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OwlFancier posted:Not that I wouldn't enjoy some kind of hive mind that is extremely picky about what it eats.  "Your biomass will fuel the growth of the Quaroo Swarm, assuming your species is composed entirely of eucalyptus leaves."
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Sep 27, 2018 19:21
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Mechanical Ape posted:
Plantoids look very nervous in response.
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Sep 27, 2018 19:40
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Mechanical Ape posted:
Yet another vegan talking about being a vegan. 
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Sep 27, 2018 19:43
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Darkrenown posted:That's something I already spoke to Wiz about a while back. We can have effects on clearing stuff now, so I could in theory make it super cheap for Swarms to clear them AND get a bunch of Food for doing it. The problem is, this is just a [not so] quick update of an old event because I thought it would be cool and the event as written doesn't fire for Gestalt Consciousnesses. If I have time I will change it more though.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:05
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DatonKallandor posted:Personally I like that "more pops" isn't necessarily a good thing - might be the first time that's the case in a 4x. More pops is good in the sense that more of anything is good in a 4x, but the question has always been "how will you support those pops". I must have a different experience than you because in older 4X games I remember restraints like local happiness being major concerns that often led to ICS spirals of lots of mid to low pop settlements. This isn't exactly ground-breaking.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:31
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I've basically never ever run into a situation in a 4X where I actively wanted fewer population units in a certain place. Civ V, for example, more people are always a net benefit because even if they've got some dinky little unhappiness penalty attached to them there's always a job open that more than pays for it. If Stellaris pop numbers get big enough that there are more people than jobs and continued growth is just more mouths to feed with no benefit, that would be an interesting twist that I can't really remember seeing in any other big-name 4X.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:39
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Crazycryodude posted:I've basically never ever run into a situation in a 4X where I actively wanted fewer population units in a certain place. Civ V, for example, more people are always a net benefit because even if they've got some dinky little unhappiness penalty attached to them there's always a job open that more than pays for it. If Stellaris pop numbers get big enough that there are more people than jobs and continued growth is just more mouths to feed with no benefit, that would be an interesting twist that I can't really remember seeing in any other big-name 4X. That's the funny thing because Civ V is like the only mainline Civ game where "more pops is better" throughout most of the game. In I-III overpopulation was just asking for your cities to revolt turn after turn and in IV you had such a low happy cap throughout the early game that excess pop was almost universally better as Slavery fodder. Assuming the game was being played at a difficulty in the upper tiers of course, below midline you could get away with pretty much anything. In regards to the latest Dev diary I'm still having difficulty grokking how this is all going to fit together in practice, but as a player who was always big on an economic focus I am glad to see a good deal of attention being paid in the rework and I'll be looking forward to getting my hands on it. Rogue Servitors is probably my favorite kind of game to play but Corporate Dominion isn't far behind.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:47
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Splicer posted:Could allow sector capitals with governors to be potential destinations, losing some or all of the trade value to the sector governor as the source of their pet project funds. So you personally are down some trade value, but you'd be losing some of that to pirates anyway and at least it's being spent on something. Seems like a good out of the box way to deal with it. Just have sector capitals 12-13 systems away from each other, max out the capital hub, and have zero trade routes but complete exploitation. A good solution for people who don't care about having compete and total control of every detail. But now sectors are geographic based on clusters... I kind of doubt they're going to be bigly huge with a diameter of a dozen systems. Patrol fleets sound cool and could potentially be a good but maybe slow way to get decent admirals without war or space monster safaris. It'd let you get new interesting traits on them too, like the sensor sweep trait or the logistics trait
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Sep 27, 2018 21:28
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