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The best weapon for making your friends sit around slack jawed waiting to do something is the flamethrower
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Oct 25, 2018 22:12
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Also in a coop game, sometimes it can be fun to just help. For example, being shield ironbreaker and just facetanking around here and there while your friends get the green rat circles, because they know they can do crazy dumb poo poo because their invincible pal is around.
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Oct 25, 2018 22:17
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Tagichatn posted:Yeah, the fun units are called rats and it's fun to kill them. It's not fun when one players kills them all. I don't know what kind of idiot you'd have to be to not get that but the sentiment that OP weapons are fine in coop games pops up in this thread from time to time. then why're kerillian's weapons still getting buffed when they're already the best in the game 
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Oct 25, 2018 22:20
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Coolguye posted:then why're kerillian's weapons still getting buffed when they're already the best in the game Actually that happens because Kerillian is better and more fun than the others post, FLY TRUE
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Oct 25, 2018 22:25
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:post, FLY TRUE doesn't he sound happy?
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Oct 25, 2018 22:30
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Tagichatn posted:Yeah, the fun units are called rats and it's fun to kill them. It's not fun when one players kills them all. I don't know what kind of idiot you'd have to be to not get that but the sentiment that OP weapons are fine in coop games pops up in this thread from time to time. So buff up underperformers to be as good as an elf with their monitor turned on. It's not a zero sum game.
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Oct 25, 2018 22:35
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Great sword merc doing charged attacks with a str pot is so goddamn fun--oh no a patrol? don't worry they'll all die if i keep swinging!
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Oct 26, 2018 00:39
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Willie Tomg posted:So buff up underperformers to be as good as an elf with their monitor turned on. It's not a zero sum game. Nerfs aren't inherently worse or better than buffs in terms of designing a balanced game. I'm not really trying to address the Elf in particularly, but it always irks me when the suggested response to one thing standing out is to rebalance the entire game around that level of performance instead of just bringing the outliers in line.
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Oct 26, 2018 01:14
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Voyager I posted:Nerfs aren't inherently worse or better than buffs in terms of designing a balanced game. I see your point in an agnostic sense, but when a method of play prevails as a coping mechanism for broken systems--like dealing with hordes, bosses, and elites from range because their damage values, sounds, and animations are all implemented terribly--then removing the ability to cope with that makes the game even worse in the aggregate. The beta is still easier than live overall, but that's just because you're categorically dumb if you pick The Wrong Classes and/or use The Wrong Weapons and run anything other than a Natural Bond necklace for a free 300-400 health per map. What was previously a very viable and diverse cast with a few outliers is now a few viable picks and bunch of troll options. And 10'll get you 20 the response will instead be to nerf NB or something, instead of making other necklace options viable, because nobody at Fatshark could figure out how to get past the Capra Demon in Dark Souls so clearly difficulty is getting poo poo on until you finally give up, and that alcove to the right, or the bridge above the Capra Demon are OP even in a PvE game because it diminished others' "pride and sense of accomplishment" at rolling away from the beasts chain attacks for 30 minutes in a row. That's what'll bring the population back, right?!
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Oct 26, 2018 01:40
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yeah i certainly don't have anything against nerfs but in this particular case i think it's not the right way to go forward kerillian's weapons work. they have a motion for pretty much any situation, and those motions are easy to access on demand as situations arise. certain weapons are better at certain things than others, but none of them will leave you in a situation where you literally can't do anything. this should be the standard for pretty much every weapon. no matter what the game throws at you, if you are clear headed and deliberate, you can play your way out of the situation. the problem being it's just not the case for many weapons, i'd go so far as to say the majority of them outside of kerillian's armory. you can just flat out be put in a situation where you have zero recourse and are going to get hit, most likely through no fault of your own. that's unacceptable and these weapons should be buffed to hit the marker that kerillian has as a standard.
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Oct 26, 2018 02:01
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ELF ELF ELF ELF RULES RULES RULES RULES People who play other characters are dumb imo. Bardin counts as ok, but only bc he's a badass, not bc he has good gameplay.
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Oct 26, 2018 02:13
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75% of the playerbase has to play someone other than elf. thats gonna be a problem going forward. merc and zealot are fun at least.
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Oct 26, 2018 02:17
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This game was always designed around making the elf the best class. The devs know their audience.
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Oct 26, 2018 03:12
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Willie Tomg posted:I see your point in an agnostic sense, but when a method of play prevails as a coping mechanism for broken systems--like dealing with hordes, bosses, and elites from range because their damage values, sounds, and animations are all implemented terribly--then removing the ability to cope with that makes the game even worse in the aggregate. The beta is still easier than live overall, but that's just because you're categorically dumb if you pick The Wrong Classes and/or use The Wrong Weapons and run anything other than a Natural Bond necklace for a free 300-400 health per map. What was previously a very viable and diverse cast with a few outliers is now a few viable picks and bunch of troll options. I think the issue is whether you're balancing for Champ or Legend. On Champ, some characters are already sufficiently powerful when paired with even a modicum of skill that they can ace enemies before they even get a chance to threaten the team. I have played games with teammates that were quite capable of icing most hoards on their own, with me basically playing a 'watch my back' role while they murdered stuff outside of my effective killzone. So buffing characters to all be on that level is impossible, since you then have multiple characters murdering beyond the capacity of the game to challenge them. On Legend, the same characters merely hold their own rather than dominate the game, and now you've got a weird choice where if you buff everybody up to one level, you kill Champion and if you nerf everybody down to another level, you kill Legend (lol it's already bad). IMHO they need to look at how difficulty works before they can fix anything. Or they just need to define a fixed point as the 'default' state, balance around that, and then fix the outlying difficulty. Unfortunately the best fixed point is Champion.
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Oct 26, 2018 04:20
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They should have stopped the scaling at champion because that's a really good level of balance. Legend should have had poo poo like more boss spawns or some kind of gimmick rather than just turning everything to 11. Throw in some super elites like mini bosses and its basically a champion run with more road blocks. The deed system is stupid as poo poo, it should be flat mutators that you could add to missions for fixed rewards. Imagine if legend was just champion with more patrols, monsters, and a few elites having 3-4x the amount of hp's. It would be a natural progression from champion to legend then once legend became a breeze you'd start messing with mutators.
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Oct 26, 2018 06:43
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Nerfs aren't inherently bad, it's just that they're making weird choices on what to nerf. Elf owns and it's not because of the longbow or her ult, it's because crit-oriented/Swift Slaying glaive coupled with the bare minimum of combo manipulation is so powerful that if not for specials and bosses you'd be able to solo the entire map with it. Meanwhile, they're going after builds that require much more work and skill to be effective. It does seem like they're balancing exclusively for Champion, I assume it makes more sense from that point of view.
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Oct 26, 2018 07:20
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After awhile, reading the patch notes started to feel like they were randomly generated by machine learning based on previous patch notes. for every change that seems to make a lot of sense (buffing witch hunter), there's something else that's just utterly baffling, like buffing the glaive in any way whatsoever or nerfing the 2h sword in any way whatsoever. Or nerfing 2 of the perks in the witch hunter's third line of perks, which is one of the most forgettable sets of perks in the game  It's super loving weird after they pretty much nailed their balance changes in vermintide 1 and moved things in the right direction 95% of the time. goes hand in hand with its gameplay also being better-designed in every way, but I still don't understand what the hell changed at  between games.
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Oct 26, 2018 08:06
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they did screw up royally on VT1 too, though Like when they introduced the autoaim bolt staff for Sienna. That was rich.
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Oct 26, 2018 10:47
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Digirat posted:After awhile, reading the patch notes started to feel like they were randomly generated by machine learning based on previous patch notes. for every change that seems to make a lot of sense (buffing witch hunter), there's something else that's just utterly baffling, like buffing the glaive in any way whatsoever or nerfing the 2h sword in any way whatsoever. Or nerfing 2 of the perks in the witch hunter's third line of perks, which is one of the most forgettable sets of perks in the game I think some of it is that the new systems interfere with making 'clean' balance changes when you don't know if people have Power+25% or whatever, and when Power is also linked to Cleave and there's a variable Mass stat and everything now it's much harder to just say like 'This weapon needs to hit one more target' or 'this weapon needs to kill a clanrat on Nightmare' since the weapon's damage is now interacting with Power and Talents.
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Oct 26, 2018 13:30
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The game's designed like a freemium game but isn't, so it's just bullshit
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Oct 26, 2018 13:34
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Mr. Pickles posted:they did screw up royally on VT1 too, though I said that their changes moved in the right direction, not that they never overshot. Every time something like a busted sienna weapon happened, it was an overbuff of something that really was underperforming and the change was still in the right direction. Compared to now where they’d have a 50/50 chance of continuing to buff the beam/bolt/fireball staff after already making it the best thing in the game, or nerfing the swiftbow or something. IMO the last repeater handgun change was the only one where they buffed something that was already fine as-is.
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Oct 26, 2018 14:14
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https://old.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/9rleo2/the_very_quick_and_incomplete_stream_recap/?st=jnqo5ohl&sh=370d4f0bquote:One specific game designer work on weapon balance change, and another one on career changes. That is why miscommunication happens and sometimes the same thing is nerfed twice by weapon and the talent simultaneous nerf. One of the main purposes for beta is to find and fix all those things. 
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Oct 27, 2018 00:58
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I love fatshark, they are the gift that keeps on giving.
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Oct 27, 2018 01:03
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Wow, that sure is a way to do balance.
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Oct 27, 2018 01:06
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Some times we think other people are working on the issue then we all go on vacation at the same time Haha we are so silly some times!
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Oct 27, 2018 01:16
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I love when they share little tidbits about their dysfunctional internal process. That being said, beta changes p gud 
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Oct 27, 2018 04:00
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What the gently caress are their managers doing to have right hand and left hand working completely independently of each other???
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Oct 27, 2018 04:05
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I'm super glad they poo poo on ranged, it deserved it and was legit one of the things making the game much less fun, if I wanted to only shoot things I can go to like, literally every other co-op horde game ever made.
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Oct 27, 2018 04:12
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Tagichatn posted:Yeah, the fun units are called rats and it's fun to kill them. It's not fun when one players kills them all. I don't know what kind of idiot you'd have to be to not get that but the sentiment that OP weapons are fine in coop games pops up in this thread from time to time. So I can continue to think of you as a legitimate human being as opposed to a literal potato someone threw on a keyboard, I will choose to believe this post is trolling.
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Oct 27, 2018 11:41
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Yardbomb posted:I'm super glad they poo poo on ranged, it deserved it and was legit one of the things making the game much less fun, if I wanted to only shoot things I can go to like, literally every other co-op horde game ever made. Ranged is already rear end on Legend, unless it's against a horde that's polite enough to come at you single file. Even pyro. The beam staff's actual beam isn't really that good or useful other than to snipe specials and stormvermin, the shotgun blast owns but it's hardly 'ranged'. Not even going to talk about the other staves and classes. It is not possible to use only ranged on Legend, no matter who you're playing as. You will go down, and probably during the first wave. It seems the real problem here is that Champion is just much too easy for experienced players with good gear, who are still (understandably) reluctant to move up to Legend with all its bullshit. It should not be possible at all to 'only shoot things', on that we agree, but if that's the case it's not so much that ranged is OP but rather that the challenge presented by enemies in general is too low. The ranged characters are just able to reach them first. I suppose effortlessly slaughtering is still more fun than doing nothing at all, but that horde still would not have been any sort of interesting threat to good players even if it had reached the party fully intact. As I've said before, they need to revamp the difficulty settings, maybe turn it into a five-tier system where endgame players are expected to settle on the fourth tier, with the fifth one being reserved for truly insane players who want a challenge.
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Oct 27, 2018 12:25
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Lunethex posted:https://old.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/9rleo2/the_very_quick_and_incomplete_stream_recap/?st=jnqo5ohl&sh=370d4f0b Lmao I almost guessed it. I thought it was a person per character
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Oct 27, 2018 13:57
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Fuuka Ayase posted:So I can continue to think of you as a legitimate human being as opposed to a literal potato someone threw on a keyboard, I will choose to believe this post is trolling.  I'm tired of people making the argument that nerfing is bad because this game is coop. Sure, underperformers should be buffed but nerfing outliers is fine too. I'm also not saying fatshark is good at figuring out what should be nerfed or buffed, just that the philosophy in general is fine.
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Oct 27, 2018 17:31
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Tagichatn posted:
Nerfing is bad in a PvE game. You're selling a power fantasy. You do not want to get people used to feeling powerful, and then make them feel less powerful if you don't have to. In a PvE game, there's never a good reason to do that unless you've painted yourself into a corner so badly it's literally the only way out. Just because fatshark does this constantly doesn't mean it's good.
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Oct 27, 2018 18:32
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Nerfing is bad in a PvE game. You're selling a power fantasy. You do not want to get people used to feeling powerful, and then make them feel less powerful if you don't have to. In a PvE game, there's never a good reason to do that unless you've painted yourself into a corner so badly it's literally the only way out. Just because fatshark does this constantly doesn't mean it's good. This is true but you have to admit there is a hypothetical upper limit to that strategy before you get diminishing returns. Like power fantasy is great but there is a point at which a class is so powerful it feels meaningless to play any longer.
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Oct 27, 2018 19:52
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They're not hitting outliers though. The glaive is the one upper outlier and they buffed it. Very few things in vermintide are so good they eclipse other options. But plenty is not good enough to compete. I say don't loving nerf because the bar where that's called for is higher in coop and they're not even close to it in competitive
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Oct 27, 2018 19:54
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Voyager I posted:What the gently caress are their managers doing to have right hand and left hand working completely independently of each other??? Each dev has his own manager.
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Oct 27, 2018 21:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Each dev has his own manager. 
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Oct 27, 2018 21:44
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Voyager I posted:What the gently caress are their managers doing to have right hand and left hand working completely independently of each other??? I seem to remember someone telling that Fatshark has completely flat organization structure, so no managers. Don't know if that's true but it would explain why they are so disorganized.
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Oct 27, 2018 22:35
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A flat organisational structure is fine as long as people communicate.
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Oct 27, 2018 23:48
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Kokoro Wish posted:A flat organisational structure is fine as long as people communicate. This is coders you're talking about though.
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Oct 28, 2018 00:07
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