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stevewm posted:It happens a lot, particularly with Teslas, well at least it used to. Honda too. A coworker’s new Honda EV went dead once and after getting a tow to the dealer, turned out it just needed the 12V battery to be charged.
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Nov 14, 2018 02:14
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The new E-Golf also has a standard 12V battery to run the car's control system.
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Nov 14, 2018 07:12
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shortspecialbus posted:Right, I know, but the last several cars I've jumped there hasn't been that engine lift point easily accessible is what I was getting at. It's harder to find a good ground close enough to the battery for the cables of the battery starter I carry around in my car to help people out. I usually use a bolt on the strut tower if there's not a clearly marked ground bolt to hook up to (or nothing easily available on the engine itself). My own car has a post to connect the positive cable to, and a bolt on the radiator support marked "GND" with a picture of a battery (battery itself is in the trunk). As it turns out, I can't actually jump another car via this method (unless I wait like an hour for the other car to charge), but I can get mine jumped.
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Nov 14, 2018 08:45
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I had to jump my Prius C two days ago. The 12v battery is from 2013, so I guess it is getting time to replace it. One of those small lithium jump packs starts it right up though. Jump points are inside a fuse box under the hood. The 12v battery on this car is under the back seat next to the HV battery. At power-on, the 12v battery closes the contactors for the HV battery, these contactors are located inside the HV battery assembley. Then the DC-DC converter will come on and charge up the 12v battery like an alternator. There's safety reasons for doing it all this way - the contactors NEED to open when the car is powered off or has an airbag deployment in a severe accident, so first responders don't have to deal with being electrocuted with >144vdc when going apeshit with the jaws of life on your smashed car.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:03
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0toShifty posted:I had to jump my Prius C two days ago. The 12v battery is from 2013, so I guess it is getting time to replace it. One of those small lithium jump packs starts it right up though. Jump points are inside a fuse box under the hood. The 12v battery on this car is under the back seat next to the HV battery. I knew there was a good reason for doing it this way but I couldn't remember it, thanks
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Nov 15, 2018 02:57
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shortspecialbus posted:Back in auto shop class in the mid-late 90’s we were taught to never hook the negative of jumper cables direct to the battery in order to avoid a spark causing a battery explosion. We were supposed to hook them up to the spot that you lift the engine from which at that time was always easily accessible and bare metal. Worked great. Doesn’t seem to be as practical these days with cars that were made after the 90’s. I was just hanging out with my lil' brother and his best friends drinking beer and trying to diagnose a dead battery and a diesel failing to chooch, and my brother asked why that's the advice. I explained it to him, and reminded him that that actually happened to one of our older cousins once -- he was getting his boat ready for fishing season, went to take it off the charger, and BLAM! Luckily the only injury was to his dignity, but it was a close call. Turns out Lilbro's truck was blowing the fuse for ... all the engine management stuff, he unplugged and taped off the least essential item on that circuit and it fired right up with a shot of ether. The batteries going flat overnight is yet to be explained, but we got the immediate problem sorted well enough -- the shorted bit was apparently a fuel filter heater that makes the filter expand so the big chunks fall off and it gets clogged less often? WTF, Ford/Navistar? by unplugging a part it runs fine without. The latest in a long series of same. The glow plugs are well dead and unplugged, there's some connector at the front of the engine broken off, and now the filter heater unplugged. All of this while were were drinking beers and half of us were smoking around four batteries hooked up directly to both terminals. I at least made sure that I and the other smoker (Lilbro and his other friend take their nicotine as chewin' tobaccy) had our cigarettes finished and extinguished before we went to town with the ether. Bro makes bank as the lead machete-man on a surveying crew, he can afford something better. On the other hand, I admire his resolve to run that schoolbus engine into the ground. ('97 F250, 7.5L turbodiesel.) As a family, we ... are very fond of Fords when buying one, but we sell 'em for scrap rather than trade them in. One time Dad had a company E-150 that was on its last legs, and we decided to hasten the process. We did eventually manage to kill a Ford 5.0L gasser (we got bored when it didn't crap out when it was run without coolant for far too long, then drained the oil and replaced it with industrial degreaser, and it still kept chugging along for another 20 minutes or so) And then 20 years later I might have done that accidentally, because I was like my brother when I was his age. Also: "Could be worse," I said at one point. "At least it's not an oil leak in the turbo making it impossible to turn off." Edit: he swears it's a 12v system, just with an extra battery. Really? Or do I need to do and rewire it tomorrow? Chillbro Baggins fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 03:16
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Diesel pickups commonly have 2 batteries in parallel - so yes, it is 12 volts, you're just doubling the potential cranking amps.
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Nov 15, 2018 04:56
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oh hey speaking of series vs. parallel, we had a driver at work making a whole bunch of noise about his (7 month old) batteries for a few weeks. He'd installed his own batteries and inverter under the bed and would upon shutting down for the night enable the idle management system (starts the truck when the batteries or engine temp drop below a set threshold) and then hook his battery bank up to the truck's starting batteries and run his hot plate or microwave and whatever else, but intermittently the truck would not restart and would be stone dead in the morning, leaving him stranded. Idle management can't do poo poo if you completely drain the starting batteries immediately after shutdown. These batteries must've all been stone dead when he hooked em up or it would've been  . Wonder how long the alternator's gonna last...
Turbo Fondant fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 06:08
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Chillbro Baggins posted:Turns out Lilbro's truck was blowing the fuse for ... all the engine management stuff, he unplugged and taped off the least essential item on that circuit and it fired right up with a shot of ether. The batteries going flat overnight is yet to be explained, but we got the immediate problem sorted well enough -- the shorted bit was apparently a fuel filter heater that makes the filter expand so the big chunks fall off and it gets clogged less often? WTF, Ford/Navistar? by unplugging a part it runs fine without. The latest in a long series of same. The glow plugs are well dead and unplugged, there's some connector at the front of the engine broken off, and now the filter heater unplugged. I'm pretty sure that the fuel filter heater is to warm up the diesel and to prevent it gelling in cold weather. Given that you apparently don't need glow plugs, I am guessing you live somewhere hot so you won't need this heater either.
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Nov 15, 2018 09:41
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NumbersMatching320 posted:oh hey speaking of series vs. parallel, we had a driver at work making a whole bunch of noise about his (7 month old) batteries for a few weeks. He'd installed his own batteries and inverter under the bed and would upon shutting down for the night enable the idle management system (starts the truck when the batteries or engine temp drop below a set threshold) and then hook his battery bank up to the truck's starting batteries and run his hot plate or microwave and whatever else, but intermittently the truck would not restart and would be stone dead in the morning, leaving him stranded. I would very much like to know what all's wrong with his setup because I'm about to build something similar and want it to not do that.
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Nov 15, 2018 09:57
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Javid posted:I would very much like to know what all's wrong with his setup because I'm about to build something similar and want it to not do that. You don't have it so that your engine-starting-battery is drained down alongside the microwaving-burritos-battery. In a correct setup, the engine battery is separate from the leisure battery. They share a charger, but are not drained simultaneously. You do not get this effect by aligator-clipping them all into a single lump. e: quote:Modern split charge systems typically have a device that connects the starter and leisure batteries only when a charging source is operating, and electrically isolates them otherwise, ensuring that the use of one battery does not draw current from the other. It is important to ensure that the starter battery is isolated so the engine can always be started, but you also don't want the leisure battery to be accidentally drawn upon when starting the engine because dedicated leisure batteries are not designed for high current output over short periods of time and can be damaged.
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Nov 15, 2018 10:18
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Y'all are missing the positive cable connecting to the negative of the top battery there. Two identical batteries and he crosses the terminals with them installed in the same orientation. Not the brightest bulb is he? E: unless it's supposed to be a 24V system, hard to tell since cabling leaves the frame of the photo but it looks like he's just got a huge clipped together net of positive and negative terminals with one of the batteries installed positive to negative and vice versa. Bajaha fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 14:47
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Some older big rigs run 24 volts - some of them just for the starter, some for everything. Not common anymore though. You didn't notice the mismatched battery in parallel as well? 
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Nov 15, 2018 15:09
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STR posted:You didn't notice the mismatched battery in parallel as well? If we are really going to put the boot in, we could mention that he is using 'Starting Batteries' instead of deep cycle ones.
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Nov 15, 2018 15:30
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STR posted:Some older big rigs run 24 volts - some of them just for the starter, some for everything. Not common anymore though. At least I assume it would run 12V normally, or do marine engines normally run 24?
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Nov 15, 2018 17:09
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spog posted:If we are really going to put the boot in, we could mention that he is using 'Starting Batteries' instead of deep cycle ones. That's the first thing I noticed. Even most labeled "deep cycle" batteries are mixed use and not actual deep cycle anyway...the pro-tier RVers have moved on to using golf cart batteries because they hold up much better.
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Nov 15, 2018 17:19
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Something y'all might consider with your cables, I like wrapping the jaws in bare copper wire to give them a fighting chance at getting current across:
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Nov 15, 2018 17:30
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Bajaha posted:Y'all are missing the positive cable connecting to the negative of the top battery there. yeah, the one battery is fully backwards. The negative cable goes to the positive of the far battery and then to the second ground terminal of the inverter. Had any of those batteries been any less dead that would be a pic of a burnt frame with some bits of melted Freightliner hanging off it I'm sure.
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Nov 15, 2018 17:43
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I feel that raises the chances of burning something up, rather than helps transmit current. The big (household earth?) wire on top might be okay but the thin hairy (speaker wire?) Looks ripe for getting a hot couple of strands somewhere you don't want them.
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Nov 15, 2018 17:45
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Is he trying to run the left battery in parallel with the center, and the right battery in series with the center?
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Nov 15, 2018 17:49
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cakesmith handyman posted:I feel that raises the chances of burning something up, rather than helps transmit current. The big (household earth?) wire on top might be okay but the thin hairy (speaker wire?) Looks ripe for getting a hot couple of strands somewhere you don't want them. 
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Nov 15, 2018 18:14
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Godholio posted:Is he trying to run the left battery in parallel with the center, and the right battery in series with the center? we had to explain the concept of series and parallel circuits to him, actually the boss gave him a quick 20 minute DC electrics 101 to get him to the point where he can even understand why what he did was wrong. Boss used napkin diagrams, driver kept the napkins to use as a reference later. We installed multiple circuit breakers on this truck at various points immediately after said conversation.
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Nov 15, 2018 18:47
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Godholio posted:That's the first thing I noticed. Even most labeled "deep cycle" batteries are mixed use and not actual deep cycle anyway...the pro-tier RVers have moved on to using golf cart batteries because they hold up much better. Ok this is directly useful info to me. What kind/size/whatever battery is that that they go for? The assorted Van Blogs I've read tend to favor these big rear end like 200 amp-hour AGM batteries so that was what I was gonna do, but if there's a better option I'm interested.
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Nov 15, 2018 19:48
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A lot of them are using 6v golf cart batteries wired in series as pairs to run 12v. They're true deep-cycle, and the cost isn't much higher than the dual-use batteries being inaccurately labeled as deep cycle. Since they hold up to the abuse better, it ends up being more cost effective due to their longer lifespan. I did a lot of reading on boondocking and charging systems a while back, but I don't have the specifics or bookmarks anymore after a motherboard short nuked everything.
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Nov 15, 2018 20:09
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Godholio posted:after a motherboard short nuked everything. Was it running off batteries?
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Nov 15, 2018 20:10
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C-Bangin' it 
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No but it did shoot a jet of flame out of a SATA port. Sadly I pulled power instead of taking a picture/video. 
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Nov 15, 2018 20:23
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Collateral Damage posted:Some large stationary diesels run 24V systems as well. I know our backup power generator does, despite otherwise being a standard Volvo Penta marine diesel. yeah you aren't going to find much 12V on anything larger than a small yacht cable lengths alone make it impractical
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Nov 15, 2018 21:11
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cakesmith handyman posted:I feel that raises the chances of burning something up, rather than helps transmit current. The big (household earth?) wire on top might be okay but the thin hairy (speaker wire?) Looks ripe for getting a hot couple of strands somewhere you don't want them. It might, though I kind of took the idea from WeldingTipsAndTricks tip on how to ground a round workpiece, just wrap some heavy gauge wire sans insulation around it and clamp to that. I really prefer the wadded up stranded wire for more surface area contact though your point is valid. I'm just trying to maximize surface area wherever current needs to change between materials and in this case the tiny teeth edges on the clamps mean that no matter how heavy the cable is they can't properly get current into the oddly-shaped <whatever> I clamped onto. I must say it sure seems to work, a neighbor was trying with some cheapie clamps to jump a motorcycle with a car and even after leaving it running and connected he wasn't having any luck. a few minutes on my clamps and it started fine, though of course his may have softened it up for mine as well. I will say, when I didn't know any better at 15 my grandpa asked for a jumper wire to check for current while troubleshooting a blower motor, 24AWG was all I had so I went and got him some. We dutifully crammed it into the requisite ports and it actually took several seconds to get to glowing and red before I let go. I guess what I'm saying is that it takes an assload of current to make stranded copper wire behave like steel wool when exposed to a short and it has also an assload more specific heat than iron/steel, so I wouldn't worry too much about individual strands on the time scales, and it's never been an issue. I'm like 99% sure I made them better, they definitely don't make worse contact now.
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Nov 15, 2018 21:44
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BloodBag posted:Tales from CMM land: I was tasked with a first article on this little tungsten part this past Saturday. It has 3 different centerlines and a port at 5 degrees whose offset from the CL of the part overall is .050 positive. I go through the motions of picking up my datums, get my alignment, find the centerline of the part overall and then check the port. PC-DMIS has a handy thing that will give you what it thinks is the nominal location for what you just checked. I see .050 ± .005 and it checks .0506, perfect! I feel ya. Back when I was a tool and diemaker's apprentice, I drilled a waterline in an injection mold core on centerline to the x and y axis. Easy peasy... ...the thing is, the tool designer offset the hole by .030 from centerline in y to clear a really close floor callout on a side pocket. No real way to finagle it to work, so there went 30+ hours of hard manual milling and turning. That part still wakes me up at night sometimes and it was twenty years ago.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:34
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Collateral Damage posted:Some large stationary diesels run 24V systems as well. I know our backup power generator does, despite otherwise being a standard Volvo Penta marine diesel. Larger engines sometimes run 24V, more to save on copper I think - a 12V starter would have to be the size of a car engine to turn some of those big stationary engines over (and in fact a lot of old tractors and stationary motors did exactly that - they had a small 2 or 4 cylinder "pony" engine to act as a starter and coolant preheater for the big engine - you'd start the pony, wind it up, let it warm up a few minutes, then engage whatever mechanism that particular thing used between the pony and big engine - then just let it keep spinning the big engine until it finally fired up). Double the voltage, and your amperage requirements (and thus, wire gauge requirements) get (roughly) cut in half. If you're on something with a lot of wiring (like a larger boat), your costs to build it drop significantly by going to 24V. And a backup generator, depending on application, may be considered a life safety device (especially if tied into lighting and/or elevators). You want that bitch to start every time on the first try. A marginal pair of batteries is still going to be better at cranking that big engine than one marginal battery. NumbersMatching320 posted:we had to explain the concept of series and parallel circuits to him, actually the boss gave him a quick 20 minute DC electrics 101 to get him to the point where he can even understand why what he did was wrong. Jesus, amazing nothing got fried then. Would also explain why the idle management wasn't working properly - those usually just monitor voltage, right? So probably by the time the overall voltage got low enough for the engine to start, there weren't enough amps for it to turn over. And I'm sure the idle management has enough logic built into it to give up after a few unsuccessful attempts.
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Nov 16, 2018 06:50
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STR posted:Larger engines sometimes run 24V, more to save on copper I think - a 12V starter would have to be the size of a car engine to turn some of those big stationary engines over (and in fact a lot of old tractors and stationary motors did exactly that - they had a small 2 or 4 cylinder "pony" engine to act as a starter and coolant preheater for the big engine - you'd start the pony, wind it up, let it warm up a few minutes, then engage whatever mechanism that particular thing used between the pony and big engine - then just let it keep spinning the big engine until it finally fired up). Double the voltage, and your amperage requirements (and thus, wire gauge requirements) get (roughly) cut in half. If you're on something with a lot of wiring (like a larger boat), your costs to build it drop significantly by going to 24V.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veOcZjuQoko
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Nov 16, 2018 12:33
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Planes had ’em too. The USAAF called them “putt‐putts” in official documents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr-l2hGo11I Modern airliner use small turboshaft engines and call them “auxiliary power units”. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 13:54
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SR-71s used literal Buick engines. http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/ag330_sr.htm P.S. if you haven't read Ben Rich's book "Skunk Works" you should do so ssb fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 14:20
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I'm sure we all seen a lot of Blackbird stuff but ran across this one the other day... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KD5u-xkik I like it because it is like your grandpa explaining what it was like and well learned a few more random things. About the film, the tires, the hour pins, etc. Oh, and be sure to read the fastest guys in the sky if you haven't. Short read, but great. http://wesclark.com/burbank/sr_71.html
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Nov 16, 2018 14:43
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BloodBag posted:I had to look up pony engine starters. This old John Deere diesel has a V4 pony engine that rotates at 5500 rpm to turn the big engine at 200 rpm to start it, really cool! The narrator sounds like my Grandpa So is the V4 also a tiny (125cc, it sounds like) diesel, or is it a gasoline engine with a separate fuel supply?
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Nov 16, 2018 18:50
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Sagebrush posted:So is the V4 also a tiny (125cc, it sounds like) diesel, or is it a gasoline engine with a separate fuel supply? Gasoline.
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Nov 16, 2018 19:53
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Pony gas engines we're used to start large Diesel engines, especially when cold. Some tractors we're even started using another tracotr and a long belt between the two engines. Considering the safety, it's kinda surprising old farmers are not missing more limbs. There is a runor my Mom's 1st husband ran over himself with a plow. I think some engines were multi fuel and would start running using gasoline or another easy to burn fuel then warm up enough to switch to Diesel. Of course, turbines are also "multifuel" engines because they can run on any fuel.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:07
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We have a JD 70 at our farm with the pony motor. It’s pretty great thing sounds likes it’s gonna explode then you pull the start lever where it engages the Diesel engine and off you go. We also had a IH that was multi fuel. Starts on kerosene then switched to diesel. Also had a multi fuel JD that could run on distillate trash fuel.
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Nov 16, 2018 20:13
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Colostomy Bag posted:I'm sure we all seen a lot of Blackbird stuff but ran across this one the other day... http://youtu.be/BZRP1q1PGUk
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Nov 16, 2018 22:01
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shortspecialbus posted:SR-71s used literal Buick engines. Well, it did, but the picture is of the later big-block Chevy starter, when Buick engines became out of production. I think the best part is that they literally hook up a driveshaft from the top of the ground unit to the underside of the airplane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjdyQpEUYzI Listen to those V8s sing! Platystemon posted:Planes had ’em too. The USAAF called them “putt‐putts” in official documents. The fuel supply of one of those leaking on a ground roll is what burned the B-29 that was being resurrected in the antarctic to the ground, just as they got the plane operable after years of labor. Made my heart ache. https://www.warhistoryonline.com/whotube-2/b-29-kee-bird-frozen-time-watch.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE9j-W_8USw
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