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Westy543 posted:The US prices for the Kona EV were announced. Let's see if they actually deliver very many! Wonder what the distribution will be among the ~18K they estimate to produce.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:19
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The Kona just screams compliance car to me with those small production numbers. Also, the Ultimate version is priced about the same as the Tesla Model 3 mid-range. If Tesla's free cruise control was adaptive, I would say that the Kona EV would be beat in every way.
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Jan 28, 2019 20:20
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Does anyone know what the actual producting costs for a car like the Kona EV is? I keep seeing car manufacturers skirting the $37K line hedging on the tax credit to lessen the blow, and I'm getting pretty sick of it. Edit: Answered my own question with Google: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110563_chevy-bolt-ev-costs-28700-to-build-tesla-model-3-a-bit-higher-analysis
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Jan 28, 2019 20:30
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Nfcknblvbl posted:The Kona just screams compliance car to me with those small production numbers. Also, the Ultimate version is priced about the same as the Tesla Model 3 mid-range. If Tesla's free cruise control was adaptive, I would say that the Kona EV would be beat in every way. A: the US has to compete with global demand for the Kona so that’s why we’re getting so few here. B: the Koreans have been making better-made, more reliable cars than anyone else in the industry for at least the last five years. Meanwhile Tesla makes cars in an unpermitted tent outdoors and they don’t work in winter. C: literally no one should be cross-shopping a little EV hatch with a much bigger EV sedan that’s several thousand dollars more expensive. D: misusing “compliance car” ought to be a bannable offense. It certainly lets me know who thinks we should all be driving more EVs versus people who just want to white knight a billionaire because they think he’ll take them to Mars to be his janitor.
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Jan 28, 2019 21:21
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Kona is a sub 30k (after tax credit) EV with a big liquid cooled battery. I'm pretty sure that's new territory for EV's and great news, even if getting one involves a wait and paying sticker price.
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Jan 28, 2019 21:28
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Honestly the kona is a really attractive option, but I'm not a huge fan of crossovers. I'm more excited for what it means for the growth of EVs and what competition other manufacturers have. It competes pretty directly with the Bolt EV, so I'm curious what GM has in store for the gen 2 Bolt in a few years. drgitlin posted:Meanwhile Tesla makes cars in an unpermitted tent outdoors They seem to have finally gotten rid of the tent!
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Jan 28, 2019 22:22
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Westy543 posted:Honestly the kona is a really attractive option, but I'm not a huge fan of crossovers. I'm more excited for what it means for the growth of EVs and what competition other manufacturers have. It competes pretty directly with the Bolt EV, so I'm curious what GM has in store for the gen 2 Bolt in a few years. GM's also building a Cadillac EV, might be cool!
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Jan 28, 2019 22:27
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drgitlin posted:A: the US has to compete with global demand for the Kona so that’s why we’re getting so few here. People will - and should - cross-shop whatever the hell crazy thing they want.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:23
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drgitlin posted:A: the US has to compete with global demand for the Kona so that’s why we’re getting so few here. The Kona's scarcity in the U.S. is a bummer no matter the reason. I really hope Hyundai and Kia produce as many battery packs as GM and Nissan. I was comparing the price of the Ultimate option of the Kona which lines up with the Model 3 except for the bullshit $5k driver assist. What else should I call a car that's only sold in California?
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Jan 29, 2019 00:08
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Does Kia normally charge $1,045 for D&D on other models? that seems... high
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Jan 29, 2019 00:20
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Westy543 posted:...so I'm curious what GM has in store for the gen 2 Bolt in a few years. Cancellation. Nfcknblvbl posted:GM's also building a Cadillac EV, might be cool! Worked superbly for the ELR.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:33
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Nfcknblvbl posted:What else should I call a car that's only sold in California? Marketing to the densest population of customers? (in whichever meaning of the word you want to use  )
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Jan 29, 2019 01:41
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drgitlin posted:B: the Koreans have been making better-made, more reliable cars than anyone else in the industry for at least the last five years. Meanwhile Tesla makes cars in an unpermitted tent outdoors and they don’t work in winter. What do you mean they don't work in winter?
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Jan 29, 2019 02:01
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pun pundit posted:What do you mean they don't work in winter? Trolls will troll. I have a Tesla, and I live in  Easily one of the best winter cars I've driven.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:07
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pun pundit posted:What do you mean they don't work in winter? the door handles freeze in place and can't be pulled loose because they're flush, the windows need to be permanently rolled down a bit to not jam on the roof, the trunk lid dumps water or snow into the trunk when it's opened, and battery life suffers hugely in the cold (from ~270 miles to ~95 miles of range at -15C)
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Jan 29, 2019 02:08
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pun pundit posted:What do you mean they don't work in winter? It's mostly TSLAQ bullshit.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:08
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Sagebrush posted:the door handles freeze in place and can't be pulled loose because they're flush, the windows need to be permanently rolled down a bit to not jam on the roof, the trunk lid dumps water or snow into the trunk when it's opened, and battery life suffers hugely in the cold (from ~270 miles to ~95 miles of range at -15C) Has that been your experience? I’m on my third Canadian winter with my S, and the only problem I’ve noticed is range reduction, which I assumed to just be physics. What are other cars doing that makes them suffer less in terms of range? (That reduction sounds much steeper than I think I’m seeing, but when it’s that cold I usually prewarm the car while it’s plugged in, so that probably helps the battery a bit.) Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 02:15
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:It's mostly TSLAQ bullshit. It's a Model 3 issue since it doesn't have a resistance heater to warm up the battery pack, instead the drive motor heats it up, and it's not so good in the super cold. I don't think Norwegians will like the Model 3 as much.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:18
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My 3 was fine this morning in West Michigan. 8F out with a -5 Windchill. Easily the best car I have ever driven in the winter.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:23
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Nfcknblvbl posted:It's a Model 3 issue since it doesn't have a resistance heater to warm up the battery pack, instead the drive motor heats it up, and it's not so good in the super cold. I don't think Norwegians will like the Model 3 as much. ~270 to ~95 miles range in -15C still sounds like bullshit. But we'll see, TM3's are due to be delivered in a few weeks and with some luck we'll have a proper cold spell before spring to experience how poo poo they really are. Yes, you get range reduction during winter, it's both due to temperatures affecting the battery (when it's below freezing), and colder temperatures equalling higher air resistance due to air density increasing by an appreciable amount when temperatures drop. But we're talking 25-30% loss in range, not 60%. I averaged 202 Wh/km driving from Tromsø to Oslo around new years eve in a brand new Model S 75D. That was during a winter storm. Worst areas I was pushing 300 Wh/km (1-2 inches of slush/ice/snow), and my best average between charges was like 160 Wh/km (bare roads, doing 45-55mph in traffic).  Trip B is from Trondheim to Oslo (ca). I've experienced parking brakes sticking a bit after parking in a heated garage overnight, and windows sticking a bit in -12C (as in you can hear the window unstick from the rubber gasket), but that's it. Doorhandles have been perfectly fine so far. Edit number gently caress knows: We have a metric asstonne of Nissan Leafs over here, and they are truly poo poo during winter, even with a heat pump. 50% range loss is typical. I guess that's what no battery heat management gets you, heh. Wibla fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 02:25
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Well, I live in Norway and I am currently sick and tired of my 24kWh Leaf's severely reduced winter range (mostly because it takes so much of the pack to warm the car up that even short trips take 10+% of the available energy). I'm strongly considering a Tesla model 3 because it's more battery capacity for the money than other options, and unlike the e-Niro and Kona electric if I order it now I'll get it before next winter. The supercharger network is a nice bonus. This is the first I've heard of such a reduction in range from the cold with the model 3.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:30
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pun pundit posted:Well, I live in Norway and I am currently sick and tired of my 24kWh Leaf's severely reduced winter range (mostly because it takes so much of the pack to warm the car up that even short trips take 10+% of the available energy). I'm strongly considering a Tesla model 3 because it's more battery capacity for the money than other options, and unlike the e-Niro and Kona electric if I order it now I'll get it before next winter. The supercharger network is a nice bonus. This is the first I've heard of such a reduction in range from the cold with the model 3. Any reason why you haven't considered buying a used Model S instead? They've got unlimited supercharging, you know.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:31
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Sagebrush posted:the door handles freeze in place and can't be pulled loose because they're flush, the windows need to be permanently rolled down a bit to not jam on the roof, the trunk lid dumps water or snow into the trunk when it's opened, and battery life suffers hugely in the cold (from ~270 miles to ~95 miles of range at -15C) It’s going to be -15c here on Thursday morning (very unusual for this area) and this sounds like bullshit but I am interested to see what happens. So far in normal winter temps of around 0c I lose 15% give or take.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:34
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Sagebrush posted:the door handles freeze in place and can't be pulled loose because they're flush, the windows need to be permanently rolled down a bit to not jam on the roof, the trunk lid dumps water or snow into the trunk when it's opened, and battery life suffers hugely in the cold (from ~270 miles to ~95 miles of range at -15C) Not just range suffers on a cold Model either. Regen & acceleration are also reduced with a cold battery. Coasting without braking doesn't slow you down as much, and it won't accelerate as hard if you mash the party pedal either. Rode with a friend who's a big time bazinga (like, bought a Model S, bought a Model 3, met Elon, traded in the S for another 3) and I got to witness the door handle, window, regeneration, and acceleration issues firsthand last week.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:36
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pun pundit posted:Well, I live in Norway and I am currently sick and tired of my 24kWh Leaf's severely reduced winter range (mostly because it takes so much of the pack to warm the car up that even short trips take 10+% of the available energy). I'm strongly considering a Tesla model 3 because it's more battery capacity for the money than other options, and unlike the e-Niro and Kona electric if I order it now I'll get it before next winter. The supercharger network is a nice bonus. This is the first I've heard of such a reduction in range from the cold with the model 3. Do you park in a garage? or have a charging point at home? There's a lot of discussion on elbilforum.no as well, and that kind of range loss has not come up once, and if you're on there you'll know that there's a few trolls there that like to point out poo poo like that whenever they get the chance (like on every forum, I guess  ).Nfcknblvbl posted:Any reason why you haven't considered buying a used Model S instead? They've got unlimited supercharging, you know. Unlimited supercharging doesn't make that much of a difference. It's 1.70 NOK (20c US) per kWh here, and the Model 3 is disgustingly efficient to boot. Cocoa Crispies posted:Not just range suffers on a cold Model either. Regen & acceleration are also reduced with a cold battery. Coasting without braking doesn't slow you down as much, and it won't accelerate as hard if you mash the party pedal either. This happens to ALL EV's, though, not just the Model 3. The S and X doesn't have a lot of regen either on a cold battery, but it heats up enough to have decent regen after about 30-45 minutes of driving, even in the cold, and the pack retains heat fairly well once warmed up. In -10C I need to drive about an hour to get full speed at a supercharger (93kW at 40% SoC in a 75D), while full regen is available sooner. It further highlights the need to leave for a longer trip with a mostly full battery if possible, or that first supercharging stop will take a while.
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Jan 29, 2019 02:40
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Any reason why you haven't considered buying a used Model S instead? They've got unlimited supercharging, you know. For about the same price of a new Model 3 LR AWD (the cheapest model currently available to order in Norway) I could get a 2015 Model S85, so that's certainly something I've thought about. However, those have 80 000+ km on them, not a lot of warranty left, are more expensive to insure, and it's a bigger car (this is a negative for me). The free supercharging is nice, but it's not worth much money to me, I don't think I'd use it all that much. Wibla posted:Do you park in a garage? or have a charging point at home? Currently, I don't. My condo will be building an underground parking garage over the next couple of years, so I will in the not too distant future. If they are not complete idiots (condo management is frequently idiotic) they will also make the installation of charge points in this parking garage possible for residents. Oh, currently I charge at work. pun pundit fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 02:47
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pun pundit posted:Currently, I don't. My condo will be building an underground parking garage over the next couple of years, so I will in the not too distant future. If they are not complete idiots (condo management is frequently idiotic) they will also make the installation of charge points in this parking garage possible for residents. It's mandated by law that the condo management can't hinder installation of charge points unless there are very specific circumstances, so that shouldn't be a huge problem. When building a new parking garage, installing the necessary electrical infrastructure for charging is a minor cost-driving factor. Even using ZapChargers that are fairly expensive we're talking around $2700 / 25000 NOK per parking spot to retrofit an existing garage, so a new build will/should be somewhat cheaper. You absolutely do not want to use "dumb" charging points though, as peak power tariffs are coming and the penalties for exceeding them are pretty stiff. Source: I work in EE/automation and some of my colleagues work directly with EV charging solutions. E: I also charge at work right now, and since my condo management is sorta retarded, I've asked for pricing for a 32A 230V 1phase industrial outlet. I'm not going to blow $1500 on a charge point if they're going to mandate Zapchargers next year so I have to pay twice. The 32A CEE outlet will cost like $600 installed, and I can live with using the CEE adapter and Tesla UMC at home for a while. That being said, I only commute 50km per day, so if I get 7+ hours of charging at work on 13A, I'm set. I also live 2km from a large Supercharger (16 spots) that is seldom busy, so I stop by there when I come back from trips, and 1-2 times a week when I have to buy groceries anyways. Wibla fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 02:57
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:It's mostly TSLAQ bullshit.
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Jan 29, 2019 03:22
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Subjunctive posted:Has that been your experience? I’m on my third Canadian winter with my S, and the only problem I’ve noticed is range reduction, which I assumed to just be physics. I do not own a Tesla, but all of the problems I mentioned are specific to the Model 3 (well I guess all of them have the weird door handles) and I only know about them from Twitter. There are dozens of videos of the trunk pouring water into the car, and the window firmware "fix" that keeps them dropped down permanently when it's cold is documented. The range decay was one specific person noticing how much range they'd lost in their car over their commute on a particularly cold day last week; this is the first winter that we've had any significant number of Models 3 on the road so it remains to be seen if that's a real issue or just one guy. It is known that the 3 has inferior battery temperature management to the S or X, though.
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Jan 29, 2019 03:32
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Driving through New Mexico on I-40 in that blizzard last month in my Model 3, it was about 9f, and my efficiency was about 350 wh/mi at 50 mph. Once I got into some traffic my efficiency tanked, I was getting about 500 hw/mi which is worse than 50% efficiency. Stop and go traffic chills causes the battery to chill down a lot.
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Jan 29, 2019 04:05
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Sagebrush posted:I do not own a Tesla, but all of the problems I mentioned are specific to the Model 3 (well I guess all of them have the weird door handles) and I only know about them from Twitter. There are dozens of videos of the trunk pouring water into the car, and the window firmware "fix" that keeps them dropped down permanently when it's cold is documented. The range decay was one specific person noticing how much range they'd lost in their car over their commute on a particularly cold day last week; this is the first winter that we've had any significant number of Models 3 on the road so it remains to be seen if that's a real issue or just one guy. It is known that the 3 has inferior battery temperature management to the S or X, though. All that is super nit-picky stuff though that always seems to me like it comes from people who've never really been around different kinds of cars. Frameless windows sticking/icing to the door seal and breaking has been a problem with frameless windows since always. Loads of cars will dump water into the trunk when you open it. New cars at that. Even ones with diverter channels and drains. Range reduction in winter is a problem for all cars. My Prius gets less range in the winter. Snow tires, snow drag, all that will do that, you just don't think about it when you're standing outside in a blizzard filling the tank up one day earlier than you had to in the summer, you're too focussed on not getting frostbite holding the pump handle.
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Jan 29, 2019 05:07
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Finger Prince posted:All that is super nit-picky stuff though that always seems to me like it comes from people who've never really been around different kinds of cars. Frameless windows sticking/icing to the door seal and breaking has been a problem with frameless windows since always. Loads of cars will dump water into the trunk when you open it. New cars at that. Even ones with diverter channels and drains. Range reduction in winter is a problem for all cars. My Prius gets less range in the winter. Snow tires, snow drag, all that will do that, you just don't think about it when you're standing outside in a blizzard filling the tank up one day earlier than you had to in the summer, you're too focussed on not getting frostbite holding the pump handle. Yeah I don't understand why people keep harping on about this... I've had 6 cars thus far in my "driving career" and they all had these sorts of issues to varying extents in severe cold. The worse was my 2 door Cobalt... Its doors froze shut if you so much as blew a cool breeze in its direction. I had to climb in through the trunk on a few occasions because of the drat doors. Contorting myself through the trunk into the drivers seat was always a "fun" exercise in a small 2 door coupe. Even my current 2017 Volt has its issues... Water finds its way into the door handles pretty easy and they are a bit sticky to open sometimes, needing a good hard pull to break the ice loose. The little lock/unlock buttons on the handles freeze constantly and get stuck. Any water on the back of the trunk will end up dripping on you as you open it. And its EV efficiency is TERRIBLE in the winter, mostly due to the heater. Currently averaging 35-38 EV miles, where on warm days its 55+ always.
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Jan 29, 2019 05:34
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I've been following this thread on and off for a couple of years now and finally got an EV of my own. A 2015 Leaf. Why is info so sparse on some details like if it has a 3 or 6kw onboard charger? After some web searching I finally found some forum thread that says if you plug in the car it shows the charge ETA for 3 or 6kw if the car has a 6kw charger but only shows one L2 ETA if you have the 3kw one. Such a weirdly obscure thing that seems like it would be stated clearly somewhere since it potentially cuts your charge time in half. Speaking of which, I'm looking at getting an L2 charger for home. Any recommendations? I only have a 20a 240v plug in the garage but am thinking of upgrading to 40a at some point. I found this charger that lets you choose the amperage which would allow later upgrades. https://www.autochargers.ca/products/EVOcharge/EVO32_300_001.html Are there other chargers that support selectable amperage?
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Jan 29, 2019 05:40
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240v at 40 amps is like 8kw, it’s kinda overkill for your 2015 leaf for now but it doesn’t hurt to be ready for your next EV.
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Jan 29, 2019 05:48
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Nfcknblvbl posted:240v at 40 amps is like 8kw, it’s kinda overkill for your 2015 leaf for now but it doesn’t hurt to be ready for your next EV. Well you don't want to draw 40a on a 40a circuit do you? The charger I linked does 36a I think. Going down to 26a/30a would not quite max out a leaf's 6.6kw charger I think? Regardless, 20a is a bit low so I want some room to upgrade
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Jan 29, 2019 06:33
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Squibbles posted:Well you don't want to draw 40a on a 40a circuit do you? The charger I linked does 36a I think. Going down to 26a/30a would not quite max out a leaf's 6.6kw charger I think? Regardless, 20a is a bit low so I want some room to upgrade Correct.. At least in the US, code is continuous current loads shall be no more than 80% of the circuit's rating (breaker and wire). i.e., for a 20A breaker this would be 16A. The charger you linked can be set to 16, 24, and 32A output. (3.8kW, 5.7kW, 7.7kW) Which would require a breaker and wire rating of 20, 30, and 40A respectively. The middle setting (24A) would be 5.7kW; not quite maxing out the 6.6kW charger in your Leaf. Edit: As for other selectable EVSEs, there are some out there if you look. Here is a cheap example I ran onto: https://www.evseadapters.com/products/16-30a-adjustable-120-240v-charger-evse . OpenEVSE's are also adjustable: http://openevse.com/stations.html stevewm fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 07:14
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Nice, thanks for those links I'll look into those
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Jan 29, 2019 07:40
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Since this doubles as the car automation thread, I thought I'd post some experiences from the weekend, even though it's a gas car. I rented a car to go skiing and selected a BMW 2-series (or similar) so I could have folding rear seats and space for cross country skis. The "or similar" turned out to be a fully equipped Volvo S90 T5, including Pro Pilot Assist. A short review:
For my particular use, on winter roads which were mostly clear of snow, this automation level gave the same comfort level as a Tesla. In some places I wouldn't use autopilot, because of slushy snow in the road but clear wheel tracks. So I'd have to steer quite precisely to stay in those clear tracks whereas the autopilot just goes wherever. In places that are slightly winding, autopilot would be fine whereas pro pilot didn't do very well. The adaptive cruise was just about perfect, along with the fairly smooth auto box. Not sure if it will sometimes pull away with stopped traffic, as that only happened once and the eco saving thing shut the engine down so I had to press the accelerator and reengage cruise. Elon said "you wouldn't care" about not having the speedo in front of you, because of magic computers. In the real, present world, you definitely do. Speed limit changes in tunnels, temp speed limits due to road works etc etc makes a GPS mapped speedo reading or even a sign reading camera inaccurate. Having a HUD (windscreen reflection, height adjustable) added a lot to the comfort. All the info I needed was out there on the road, speedo and cruise control / pro pilot setting, with the speed limit reader occasionally helping me out when I'd missed a sign. The seats were amazing too, with extending thigh support, ventilation, massage etc. Drove close to 700 km from Fri to Sun, I could have driven twice that without a single muscle fiber being tired by other things than skiing. So in conclusion, you don't need a full on scifi HAL 9000 to get a big increase in comfort. The S90 comes in a hybrid version as well, but I would rather get a lesser equipped full EV than that. When Volvo makes pure EVs they will be sweet.
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Jan 29, 2019 11:37
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Nfcknblvbl posted:
They’re going to sell them in all 10 ZEV states. Their reasoning for not selling in all 50 is that they can only get a small allocation to the US (the aforementioned 18,000) and can sell every one of those vehicles in those 10 states, so why bother investing in dealer training for a state like Alabama or Mississippi to support the eight cars a year they’d sell there? A compliance car is something hacked together out of an ICE vehicle and some batteries to avoid corporate fines, like the Fiat 500e or that electric Focus. The Kona hardly qualifies, it was designed from the ground up as an EV and it’s pretty good at it.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:20
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Ola posted:Since this doubles as the car automation thread, I thought I'd post some experiences from the weekend, even though it's a gas car. I rented a car to go skiing and selected a BMW 2-series (or similar) so I could have folding rear seats and space for cross country skis. The "or similar" turned out to be a fully equipped Volvo S90 T5, including Pro Pilot Assist. A short review: NO SYSTEM ON SALE TODAY IS AN “AUTOPILOT.” Even your vaulted Tesla autopilot is a L2 system, and one without a proper DMS. quote:[*]It nags very often, 15-20 seconds or whenever it's feeling unsure. That’s because there’s an actual industry standard that requires the system to alert and then poo poo down after 15 seconds of no driver input. A standard that Musk decided he was too good to adhere to, which is why Tesla drivers fall asleep in their cars and die when they drive into highway dividers or semi trucks, but you never hear about it happening to Volvo drivers or Audi drivers. quote:[*]It doesn't bing and bong to let you know it's active or not, which led to some situations in the first miles where nobody was driving... The biggest weakness with the Volvo system is its UI, which can induce mode confusion far too easily. drgitlin fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 13:28
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