Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014; pretense is my co-pilot

Splicer posted:

You should probably read up the chain a bit, we're talking about a lot of things.
When you say things like this it helps to say why, otherwise you come off as reductive and kind of a dick.

I can't actually remember the reasoning. +skill cap used to be +skill and it got changed, and everyone seemed to generally approve of the change.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 03:21

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 13:36

ZypherIM: Nov 8, 2010; "I want to see what she's in love with."

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

I can't actually remember the reasoning. +skill cap used to be +skill and it got changed, and everyone seemed to generally approve of the change.

The max level used to always be 5, and old leaders didn't gain any xp from getting +skill, only new guys. So uh, don't undo the max level changes and let existing leaders get xp when you gain +skill poo poo and the argument "we did it once and it sucked" is pretty sunk.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 03:58

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

I can't actually remember the reasoning. +skill cap used to be +skill and it got changed, and everyone seemed to generally approve of the change.

It was part of a fairly large overhaul of leader leveling, with one of the biggest things being anomaly levels. The old anomaly levels had fail chances, in that researching with a low level scientist had a chance to have real bad stuff happen instead of the good stuff, up to and including losing your scientist. This meant nobody bothered researching anomalies until they had a high enough level scientist to completely remove the fail chance. Then they put a floor on the fail chance of I think it was 5%, presumably thinking "Hey if there's always a fail chance maybe people will risk a higher one?" Instead people just waited until it was 5% and savescummed the bad failures. So it ultimately got changed to the current system of it taking more time for lower level scientists (and I see now that really high level scientists take a long time to research "routine" anomalies, which is a neat addition). That's the bit everyone was really ecstatic over.

One of the big problems with the old +level benefits directly was that by the end of the game leaders got real boring. You'd buy them at level 4 or level 5 with their one skill and they'd not gain any more (because they were either at max level or almost at max level), effectively turning off the entire leveling system. You could start with a level 5 researcher with Spark of Genius but they'd never be anything but a level 5 researcher with Spark of Genius, but that was still the objectively correct decision because researching anomalies was gated behind high level scientists and researching high level anomalies is important (and also losing your single max level admiral in the middle of a war was going to really gently caress you over). You were essentially disabling a big chunk of the leader system.

One of the other problems was that there were multiple seemingly complimentary skill bonuses fighting against each other, because the higher your starting level the less +XP was worth and vice versa, and if you were starting at or close to max level you didn't really care about increased or decreased lifespans.

Adding level caps increases variety, both from the variety of level caps themselves and the increased chance to roll skills, and also allows the static bonuses from scientists to somewhat scale with other game bonuses. A higher overall anomaly cap and a variable max you can reach also makes those level X anomalies something you really have to work toward. Higher level cap compliments +XP and higher life expectancy skills, and makes lower life expectancy skills actually hurt.

So +level cap is a real good idea, and +level start had some real big problems in the existing setup. In the new setup all the downsides of it (samey endgame, fewer skills, messy trait interactions) are mitigated or outright negated by the existence of +level cap and the biggest nobrainer aspect of it (scientist anomaly fail chance) isn't there any more. Every +cap also increasing +starting level would not be a good idea, but I'm not sure why it went away entirely. I wouldn't want to see new leaders regularly starting at level 8, but the "hooray for leaders" ascension also adding +1 starting level wouldn't break anything, or the +2 max level to (leader) traditions also adding a +1 to their starting level, or a single late game tech adding +1 across the board would be fine. The biggest issue would be buying a leader just before you bought the perk, which yeah I could see being annoying.

e: On a complete aside, the arrested development mallus should have a lower XP penalty but also reduce the leader's max level cap.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Feb 2, 2019

# ? Feb 2, 2019 12:02

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

Splicer posted:

The biggest issue would be buying a leader just before you bought the perk, which yeah I could see being annoying.

Actually the annoying part would be getting the perk early in a decade (soon after the leader pool gets rerolled), I'm about 99% sure leaders already in the pool didn't get a level when you got a new +1 starting level from something.

On a less pedantic note:

Splicer posted:

One of the big problems with the old +level benefits directly was that by the end of the game leaders got real boring. You'd buy them at level 4 or level 5 with their one skill and they'd not gain any more (because they were either at max level or almost at max level), effectively turning off the entire leveling system. You could start with a level 5 researcher with Spark of Genius but they'd never be anything but a level 5 researcher with Spark of Genius, but that was still the objectively correct decision because researching anomalies was gated behind high level scientists and researching high level anomalies is important (and also losing your single max level admiral in the middle of a war was going to really gently caress you over). You were essentially disabling a big chunk of the leader system.

Disabling a big chunk of the leader system actually sounds really nice, since it's currently really boring. Especially scientists. Optimizing scientist placement is tedious and completely uninteresting.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 12:54

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Staltran posted:

Actually the annoying part would be getting the perk early in a decade (soon after the leader pool gets rerolled), I'm about 99% sure leaders already in the pool didn't get a level when you got a new +1 starting level from something.

Yes but let's pretend we live in a dream world where the +level would be applied to the yet to be purchased leaders or the leader pool rerolled on purchase or something. Though I suppose in that dreamworld there'd also be a check to bring any already purchased leaders up to the minimum starting level.

Staltran posted:

On a less pedantic note:

Disabling a big chunk of the leader system actually sounds really nice, since it's currently really boring. Especially scientists. Optimizing scientist placement is tedious and completely uninteresting.

I like having leaders that level up and gain traits, but I have written many words on why I do not like the actual setup of the scientist traits.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 13:02

AAAAA! Real Muenster: Jul 12, 2008; My QB is also named Bort

Raenir Salazar posted:

The discussion is about SciFi tropes. I started this conversation referencing the Formics as justification for the thing I'd think is cool, and later supported that reference with a reference to Nemesis by Isaac Asimov. The discussion is basically about some posters who ironically, cannot imagine that a species may not view the universe the same way they do.

How about we talk about Stellaris because this is the Stellaris thread?

# ? Feb 2, 2019 14:11

Nicodemus Dumps: Jan 9, 2006; Just chillin' in the sink

Gentleman you can't discuss sci-fi in here! This is the ~~warroom~~ Stellaris thread!

# ? Feb 2, 2019 14:29

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

This researcher mod has made a huge difference to my enjoyment of the game. Far more than it probably should.

e: whoops!

e2: double whoops!

Splicer fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Feb 2, 2019

# ? Feb 2, 2019 15:23

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

Splicer posted:

This researcher mod has made a huge difference to my enjoyment of the game. Far more than it probably should.

I assume that the mod adds a 'Cursed Architect' trait that lets researchers with it unlock techs for non-Euclidean buildings? Or is this just a visual representation of posting on SA?

# ? Feb 2, 2019 15:29

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Aethernet posted:

I assume that the mod adds a 'Cursed Architect' trait that lets researchers with it unlock techs for non-Euclidean buildings? Or is this just a visual representation of posting on SA?

Well I suppose there could have been worse things in my clipboard...

# ? Feb 2, 2019 15:46

Raenir Salazar: Nov 5, 2010; College Slice

AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

How about we talk about Stellaris because this is the Stellaris thread?

But we are? We're discussing allowing hive minds to have a wider array of interactions or perhaps more mechanics such as allowing one civic point or perhaps allowing in one case, for hive minds to have peaceful coexistence with non-hive mind pops, (or interactions other then food or purging) weird how you didn't see that.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 16:22

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

Splicer posted:

This researcher mod has made a huge difference to my enjoyment of the game. Far more than it probably should.

e: whoops!

That hasn't been updated in over two years (or ever) and the comments imply it didn't work back then either, this is what I've been using (made by the guy in the comments of the mod you linked). Maybe the one you linked works but it was literally made for 1.1 and has never been updated so I wouldn't count on it even without the comments.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 16:27

Shumagorath: Jun 6, 2001

Is there any plan to fix how useless Fallen Empire worlds are to machine empires? I took out the militant isolationists and now I'm in the process of demolishing their ancient palaces and military buildings because I can't use them to generate jobs.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 16:47

Praxis Prion: Apr 11, 2002; The sky is a landfill.; Pillbug

How often does the DLC for Stellaris go on sale? I already have Leviathans and Utopia. Considering getting Apocalypse, Megacorp, and maybe the 2 story packs Synthetic Dawn and Distant Stars, but $60 is pretty hefty for mixed review DLCs.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 17:24

jng2058: Jul 17, 2010; We have the tools, we have the talent!

Praxis Prion posted:

How often does the DLC for Stellaris go on sale? I already have Leviathans and Utopia. Considering getting Apocalypse, Megacorp, and maybe the 2 story packs Synthetic Dawn and Distant Stars, but $60 is pretty hefty for mixed review DLCs.

Usually right around the time a new big DLC shows up everything before it gets a discount. Unfortunately we just had MegaCorp, and they haven't even hinted at what/when the next one will be yet so it'll probably be a while. Might be a Paradox Week sale or something in the next seasonal Steam sale, of course.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 17:47

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Darkrenown posted:

I'll take a look, thanks.

On a side note, it finishes the colonisation if the world you capture is being colonised by the same species

# ? Feb 2, 2019 17:47

Bremen: Jul 20, 2006; Our God..... is an awesome God

Praxis Prion posted:

How often does the DLC for Stellaris go on sale? I already have Leviathans and Utopia. Considering getting Apocalypse, Megacorp, and maybe the 2 story packs Synthetic Dawn and Distant Stars, but $60 is pretty hefty for mixed review DLCs.

Pretty often. Here's the price history for Utopia on Steam, and they usually go on sale together (though Megacorp probably wont be on sale for a bit since it's new):

So once every month or two, if you keep an eye out for sales. More often if you keep an eye on other stores as well.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 18:13

Platonicsolid: Nov 17, 2008

I'm kind of at the point of giving up on the game. I was excited for 2.2 and Megacorp, but just so much seems broken that it's not a good use of my limited gaming time. Is the Beta going to fix much?

# ? Feb 2, 2019 18:16

Bremen: Jul 20, 2006; Our God..... is an awesome God

Platonicsolid posted:

I'm kind of at the point of giving up on the game. I was excited for 2.2 and Megacorp, but just so much seems broken that it's not a good use of my limited gaming time. Is the Beta going to fix much?

The main fix in the beta currently is performance improvements, I think. You can also use Glavius' AI mod if you want to improve the AI further.

Bremen fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 2, 2019

# ? Feb 2, 2019 18:42

ZypherIM: Nov 8, 2010; "I want to see what she's in love with."

Platonicsolid posted:

I'm kind of at the point of giving up on the game. I was excited for 2.2 and Megacorp, but just so much seems broken that it's not a good use of my limited gaming time. Is the Beta going to fix much?

What do you find broken? Just listing that as a generic problem doesn't do much to help us identify issues and suggest solutions.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 18:59

Jabarto: Apr 7, 2007; I could do with your...assistance.

Splicer posted:

e: On a complete aside, the arrested development mallus should have a lower XP penalty but also reduce the leader's max level cap.

Negative leader traits need to be removed completely, or at least be far less common. It's almost impossible to get a leader over level 5 or 6 without him getting addicted to drugs or slowing/halting his experience gain, to the point that I've given up on leader-centric builds altogether.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 19:22

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

Splicer posted:

So +level cap is a real good idea, and +level start had some real big problems in the existing setup. In the new setup all the downsides of it (samey endgame, fewer skills, messy trait interactions) are mitigated or outright negated by the existence of +level cap and the biggest nobrainer aspect of it (scientist anomaly fail chance) isn't there any more. Every +cap also increasing +starting level would not be a good idea, but I'm not sure why it went away entirely. I wouldn't want to see new leaders regularly starting at level 8, but the "hooray for leaders" ascension also adding +1 starting level wouldn't break anything, or the +2 max level to (leader) traditions also adding a +1 to their starting level, or a single late game tech adding +1 across the board would be fine. The biggest issue would be buying a leader just before you bought the perk, which yeah I could see being annoying.

Splicer posted:

e: On a complete aside, the arrested development mallus should have a lower XP penalty but also reduce the leader's max level cap.

Both of these would be nice changes.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 19:34

ZypherIM: Nov 8, 2010; "I want to see what she's in love with."

Splicer posted:

Yes but let's pretend we live in a dream world where the +level would be applied to the yet to be purchased leaders or the leader pool rerolled on purchase or something. Though I suppose in that dreamworld there'd also be a check to bring any already purchased leaders up to the minimum starting level.

I like having leaders that level up and gain traits, but I have written many words on why I do not like the actual setup of the scientist traits.

Yea I mean, I specifically said that existing and pool leaders should gain the xp and level-up rolls for a reason when I suggested it. It would also help a small amount with the whole "leaders leading research can't roll new traits" bug that is still floating around.

I'd like to see more traits in general, and as new stuff is added more traits that interact with them. We got a crime thing, but how about an admiral trait that raises piracy suppression, or a gov that increases trade protection in his sector.

Negative traits are annoying in stellaris because they're just negative. If they get around to stealing the event system from eu4 (or something similar), negative traits often have good interactions with events.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 19:54

Nitrousoxide: May 30, 2011; do not buy a oneplus phone

Are there any mods that do away with the card based research system?

Holy poo poo it's just such hot garbage.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:03

Vengarr: Jun 17, 2010; Smashed before noon

Nitrousoxide posted:

Are there any mods that do away with the card based research system?

Holy poo poo it's just such hot garbage.

It's hard-coded.

The card system isn't too bad once you get a few extra Research Alternatives. Jiggering your scientists also helps if you are trying to draw a specific tech, their traits help determine which cards come out. This is most important with Engineering, which has the highest number of techs and the most diverse pool.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:13

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

I don't know why, but it feels worse now than it did. I've had games where it took a hundred years to draw any of the +% buildings/edict techs, for example, or the rare material mining techs. Perhaps it's because the resource system is more complicated so you need more component bits before it gets up and running properly?

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:18

Poil: Mar 17, 2007

I always have super bad luck in getting the +fleet command or fleet forcelimit ones in the early game. Yes, I easily have infinite energy to reroll scientists until I get one with... whatever trait gives me a higher CHANCE to roll them.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:23

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

ZypherIM posted:

Negative traits are annoying in stellaris because they're just negative. If they get around to stealing the event system from eu4 (or something similar), negative traits often have good interactions with events.

Some upside would definitely be nice, especially since in Stellaris replacing a leader is easy, so e.g. getting Arrested Development at a low level is often equivalent to the leader just dropping dead. The only case I can think of where a negative trait is useful in Stellaris is corrupt governors to get crime temporarily high enough for a crime lord deal, and that probably shouldn't be useful. Plus it has the problem of only needing to teleport a governor in for a day to get a benefit before teleporting the usual governor back in.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

I don't know why, but it feels worse now than it did. I've had games where it took a hundred years to draw any of the +% buildings/edict techs, for example, or the rare material mining techs. Perhaps it's because the resource system is more complicated so you need more component bits before it gets up and running properly?

That's probably a part of it, but I think there's just more techs now. And I think there's a lot more techs with no prereqs (or prereqs that you'll almost certainly have) now too.

Nitrousoxide posted:

Are there any mods that do away with the card based research system?

Holy poo poo it's just such hot garbage.

Look for mods that give you a lot more research options. Shouldn't be too difficult to make one if there isn't one already, either.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:23

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Staltran posted:

That hasn't been updated in over two years (or ever) and the comments imply it didn't work back then either, this is what I've been using (made by the guy in the comments of the mod you linked). Maybe the one you linked works but it was literally made for 1.1 and has never been updated so I wouldn't count on it even without the comments.

And that other, actually working one would be the one I'm subscribed to. Jesus, I failed in making that post in every respect.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Feb 2, 2019

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:44

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

Splicer posted:

And that other, actually working one would be the one I'm subscribed to. Jesus, I failed in making that post in every respect.

You posted it in the right thread at least

# ? Feb 2, 2019 20:57

binge crotching: Apr 2, 2010

Staltran posted:

Some upside would definitely be nice, especially since in Stellaris replacing a leader is easy, so e.g. getting Arrested Development at a low level is often equivalent to the leader just dropping dead. The only case I can think of where a negative trait is useful in Stellaris is corrupt governors to get crime temporarily high enough for a crime lord deal, and that probably shouldn't be useful. Plus it has the problem of only needing to teleport a governor in for a day to get a benefit before teleporting the usual governor back in.

I never thought about the corrupt benefit for making a deal with a crime lord. For Arrested Development though, unless the leader is at least level 6 or 7 I just immediately delete fire it and hire a new one. It seems to mostly fire when they hit level 2 or 3, so starting over isn't much of an issue. Still annoying when it happens though!

# ? Feb 2, 2019 21:00

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Staltran posted:

Some upside would definitely be nice, especially since in Stellaris replacing a leader is easy, so e.g. getting Arrested Development at a low level is often equivalent to the leader just dropping dead. The only case I can think of where a negative trait is useful in Stellaris is corrupt governors to get crime temporarily high enough for a crime lord deal, and that probably shouldn't be useful. Plus it has the problem of only needing to teleport a governor in for a day to get a benefit before teleporting the usual governor back in.

I wish that negative traits were removed from the leveling system and instead rolled up with old age death and synthetic leader accidents into one system of "roll for badstuff".

Staltran posted:

That's probably a part of it, but I think there's just more techs now. And I think there's a lot more techs with no prereqs (or prereqs that you'll almost certainly have) now too.

I think all the +% techs should be removed and the +% bonuses rolled into the actually meaningful techs.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 21:02

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Praxis Prion posted:

How often does the DLC for Stellaris go on sale? I already have Leviathans and Utopia. Considering getting Apocalypse, Megacorp, and maybe the 2 story packs Synthetic Dawn and Distant Stars, but $60 is pretty hefty for mixed review DLCs.

I'm terrified of posting another link but GOOD NEWS

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/on-sale/

Megacorp's not on sale but all the other Stellaris DLC is 50% off, including Distant Stars and Apocalypse.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 21:16

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

ZypherIM posted:

It would also help a small amount with the whole "leaders leading research can't roll new traits" bug

It's not even a bug!

code:

### LEADER LEVEL UP EVENTS ####

#Gatekeeper fired from on_action on_leader_level_up
country_event = {
	id = leader.20
	hide_window = yes
	is_triggered_only = yes

	immediate = {
		from = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					leader_class = scientist
					num_traits < 3
					NOR = {
						has_leader_flag = has_gained_level_trait
						is_researching_area = society
						is_researching_area = engineering
						is_researching_area = physics
					}
				}

It's explicitly turned off! :psyduck:

I don't know why it's like this!

# ? Feb 2, 2019 21:25

DatonKallandor: Aug 21, 2009; "I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."

MrL_JaKiri posted:

I don't know why, but it feels worse now than it did. I've had games where it took a hundred years to draw any of the +% buildings/edict techs, for example, or the rare material mining techs. Perhaps it's because the resource system is more complicated so you need more component bits before it gets up and running properly?

I'm using a mod that gives everyone the basic rare resource extraction techs from the start, but artifically making them still has to be researched. It helps a lot in smoothing out early and the AI seems to appreciate it too.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 22:04

Praxis Prion: Apr 11, 2002; The sky is a landfill.; Pillbug

Splicer posted:

I'm terrified of posting another link but GOOD NEWS

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/on-sale/

Megacorp's not on sale but all the other Stellaris DLC is 50% off, including Distant Stars and Apocalypse.

Ooh this is cool! Is it possible to link this to my Steam account?

# ? Feb 2, 2019 22:08

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Praxis Prion posted:

Ooh this is cool! Is it possible to link this to my Steam account?

Yes you get a steam key with it.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 22:13

Praxis Prion: Apr 11, 2002; The sky is a landfill.; Pillbug

Nice, that's much more reasonable. Thank you!

# ? Feb 2, 2019 22:17

AAAAA! Real Muenster: Jul 12, 2008; My QB is also named Bort

Jabarto posted:

Negative leader traits need to be removed completely, or at least be far less common. It's almost impossible to get a leader over level 5 or 6 without him getting addicted to drugs or slowing/halting his experience gain, to the point that I've given up on leader-centric builds altogether.

I agree completely, I feel like doing anything that increases leader XP gain simply means I need to fire another leader, sooner, because they pick up negative traits that much faster.

Platonicsolid posted:

I'm kind of at the point of giving up on the game. I was excited for 2.2 and Megacorp, but just so much seems broken that it's not a good use of my limited gaming time. Is the Beta going to fix much?

Give it some time. I'm taking a break for probably at least another month because 2.2 changed so much and then after the holidays the lead dev came out said that they need to spend a ton of time fixing the issues with the patch. Take a break and come back in a while and maybe it will be better.

Raenir Salazar posted:

But we are? We're discussing allowing hive minds to have a wider array of interactions or perhaps more mechanics such as allowing one civic point or perhaps allowing in one case, for hive minds to have peaceful coexistence with non-hive mind pops, (or interactions other then food or purging) weird how you didn't see that.

Look at your post that I quoted. You specifically point out that the discussion is about Scifi tropes and then say "The discussion is basically about some posters who...", which means I sound like I'm backseat modding and an rear end. I'm sorry. (I was scrolling past a lot of your posts because they were about your side discussion and not direct stellaris discussion)

AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 2, 2019

# ? Feb 2, 2019 22:21

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 13:36

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

DatonKallandor posted:

I'm using a mod that gives everyone the basic rare resource extraction techs from the start, but artifically making them still has to be researched. It helps a lot in smoothing out early and the AI seems to appreciate it too.

That sounds super convenient. What's the name of the mod?

# ? Feb 2, 2019 22:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

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