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In a world where you can have any body and appearance you want, the political landscape in terms of gender wouldn't be anything like we know it. It's just brains in machines Most of the dudes you see could be women and vice versa. That kid over there could be an adult. That fuckin dog over there could be some guy tailing you Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 16:30
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Collapsing Farts posted:In a world where you can have any body and appearance you want, there's really political landscape in terms of gender like we know it Did you mean "no" political landscape as we know it? If so, that's part of the point I'm making.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:31
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I think you can focus-test potentially offensive stereotypes as much as you want, it's not a bad thing to get feedback on elements you're unsure about, but the games industry won't really improve until it becomes more reflective of the populations games are written about, as well as the people who play them. If you want to write authentically about issues that affect a particularly marginalized group of people, then it would be in your best interests to actively employ a diverse workforce that can offer those perspectives with authenticity. Representation like allowing the player to select their pronouns and gender sliders is all well and good but it's not really changing anything if you're not also materially affecting who holds power and influence within the industry.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:31
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chaosapiant posted:1. It's relatively little demo footage and media that the game has had so far for a game that is likely 100+ hours long. 2. Is because of 1. We don't know because they haven't shown any. And they've been so tightly controlling what is shown to whom that if there was more representation in the game, they'd show it. So either that's not a priority for them, despite another pr blunder involving trans people, or there's not that much representation. Talk it cheap, they need to put up and show how they're better representing trans people.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:31
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Pattonesque posted:who would have thought we'd get that level of inclusion for a giant robot strategy game based on a 1980's tabletop milsim Not just that, actually I'm pretty sure it lets you use any of the slider options on any of the face shapes, regardless of if you select he/she/they as your identifier. As near as I can tell none of the options are tagged male/female so you can make any combination you want of "masculine"/"feminine" or what have you. You can also change all your pilots any way you want too, except maybe the special ones that were put in for the game's Kickstarter backers. Heck, the voices are all just numbered rather than being separated as for male or female characters. Of course Skippy McPants posted:It probably helped that the lead game designer is trans, but yeah that was a nice touch.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:31
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Honestly disappointed we can't be a cyber-cop, specially considering the first ever teaser this game had
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Jun 13, 2019 16:32
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CascadeBeta posted:2. Is because of 1. We don't know because they haven't shown any. And they've been so tightly controlling what is shown to whom that if there was more representation in the game, they'd show it. So either that's not a priority for them, despite another pr blunder involving trans people, or there's not that much representation. Talk it cheap, they need to put up and show how they're better representing trans people. How do we know that they haven't shown any? How do we know, for sure, that certain NPCs or background characters in the limited bit of media we've seen are not in fact trans characters?
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Jun 13, 2019 16:32
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The_White_Crane posted:
I thought it was fairly broadcasted? Like in a way where you mostly knew pretty early? I admittedly only tried to play the game at a point where social media had broadly spoiled all that kind of character stuff. Also full body conversions are both extremely expensive and are the kind of chrome that takes a poo poo ton of therapy
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Jun 13, 2019 16:33
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sean10mm posted:Not just that, actually I'm pretty sure it lets you use any of the slider options on any of the face shapes, regardless of if you select he/she/they as your identifier. As near as I can tell none of the options are tagged male/female so you can make any combination you want of "masculine"/"feminine" or what have you. You can also change all your pilots any way you want too, except maybe the special ones that were put in for the game's Kickstarter backers. Heck, the voices are all just numbered rather than being separated as for male or female characters. Of course Skippy McPants posted:It probably helped that the lead game designer is trans, but yeah that was a nice touch. true true. kiva rules. hell of a game too, can't wait to see how they build on it beyond the first two DLC
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Jun 13, 2019 16:33
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chaosapiant posted:How do we know that they haven't shown any? How do we know, for sure, that certain NPCs or background characters in the limited bit of media we've seen are not in fact trans characters? "We have plenty of trans characters, you just can't see them!" is loving bullshit and you know it.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:34
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frajaq posted:Honestly disappointed we can't be a cyber-cop, specially considering the first ever teaser this game had Good. Cops are trash.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:34
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chaosapiant posted:How do we know that they haven't shown any? How do we know, for sure, that certain NPCs or background characters in the limited bit of media we've seen are not in fact trans characters? The_White_Crane posted:No, shut the gently caress up.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:35
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On the other hand they might though? If they don't it definitely would be a problem.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:35
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chaosapiant posted:How do we know that they haven't shown any? How do we know, for sure, that certain NPCs or background characters in the limited bit of media we've seen are not in fact trans characters?
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Jun 13, 2019 16:36
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CascadeBeta posted:"We have plenty of trans characters, you just can't see them!" is loving bullshit and you know it. That's not really what I'm getting at either, so I'm going to drop it.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:36
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Stroth posted:Netrunner, Solo, and Techie. Pity, I guess a bunch of the classes would be weird to implement in that game.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:36
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Glenn Quebec posted:On the other hand they might though? If they don't it definitely would be a problem. This kind of argument would continue even after the game has come out and there's no trans characters. "Oh well maybe one of the main characters is trans and we just don't know!" That loving sucks and is not acceptable.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:37
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You were right, Smith. You're always right. It was inevitable.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:37
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CascadeBeta posted:"We have plenty of trans characters, you just can't see them!" is loving bullshit and you know it. That isn't what they said at all. And now we've just come back around to the Catch-22 of either having trans characters that obviously don't pass or having trans characters that pass well enough not to be noticed in crowd shots from demos and screenshots.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:37
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Zedd posted:Be real, you know what they mean. Having uselessmook#763 being Trans but you only knowing about it in the credits or stuff like that isn't enough. https://twitter.com/bafeldman/status/607924079379644417
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Jun 13, 2019 16:38
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CascadeBeta posted:This kind of argument would continue even after the game has come out and there's no trans characters. "Oh well maybe one of the main characters is trans and we just don't know!" No, I mean a fully fleshed out character that's interactive and has a plot. Not someone in the background with possible scarring from a sex change.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:39
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Zedd posted:Be real, you know what they mean. Having uselessmook#763 being Trans but you only knowing about it in the credits or stuff like that isn't enough. Enough for what It's a game not a political movement
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Jun 13, 2019 16:39
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I do feel that a lot of this boils down to it being a Cyberpunk setting. Having no trans people in your shootymans in the modern day, or your fantasy waifu RPG or whatever isn't perfect either, but the big thing a lot of trans/nb people suffer from (dysphoria/adjusting your body) is extremely ingrained element of the setting.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:40
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Collapsing Farts posted:Enough for what Games are political.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:41
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frajaq posted:Honestly disappointed we can't be a cyber-cop, specially considering the first ever teaser this game had https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P99qJGrPNLs Yeah but that'd basically be a whole game into itself, and would really focus the scope of the narrative
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Jun 13, 2019 16:41
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Glenn Quebec posted:No, I mean a fully fleshed out character that's interactive and has a plot. Not someone in the background with possible scarring from a sex change. If there's a third act major NPC that's a trans person who is not offensive I will gladly accept being wrong, but I'm going off of what they've shown so far. And they haven't shown anything positive yet.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:42
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Collapsing Farts posted:Enough for what Enough for us not to slate them for treating trans people more as a source of voyeuristic fetishism and cheap 'statements' than as actual people. Look, people keep bringing up the idea that in a future where everyone can cybermod themselves up the whazoo we might end up with a post-gender society, and that within that context such a poster is a pretty unexceptional bit of set dressing, and I agree with that. But a post-gender society wouldn't be "almost everyone looks clearly like a 2010s-era man/woman except maybe some of them have the other bits under their clothes and you can't tell until they're naked". The_White_Crane fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 16:42
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chaosapiant posted:And based on the few interviews I've read that seems to be the author's intent. Do you have any links to some of these? I’ve looked briefly for articles but most of them are incredibly generic and the most I’ve seen as a defense is “I think this person is sexy and this is the future where everything is oversexualized” Ultimately - alongside the “if you have positive representations of trans people, then show them” idea - if you understand it’s provocative but don’t understand how problematic the image displayed is, there’s still a problem even if your intent wasn’t negative. Again, the entire spat kicked off in this thread with “boy I sure wish cdpr would find some trans people to hire because  ”And they’re kind of demonstrating that that was good advice.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:44
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Ugato posted:Do you have any links to some of these? I’ve looked briefly for articles but most of them are incredibly generic and the most I’ve seen as a defense is “I think this person is sexy and this is the future where everything is oversexualized” There was an interview posted itt yesterday I think, I'll go and see if I can find the link. Edit: I think this is it here: https://www.polygon.com/e3/2019/6/12/18662443/cyberpunk-2077-trans-advertisement-cd-projekt-red-e3-2019 chaosapiant fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 16:46
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Collapsing Farts posted:Enough for what 
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Jun 13, 2019 16:46
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Visibly transgender characters in a setting with advanced and ubiquitous biotech/cybertech makes very little sense to me, unless that character is a luddite tbh. If this was 2020 then sure, but in 2077 even the poorest people would have the means to genemod or augment themselves to look however they want NB I expect will be pretty commonplace Firebert fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 16:47
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CascadeBeta posted:If there's a third act major NPC that's a trans person who is not offensive I will gladly accept being wrong, but I'm going off of what they've shown so far. And they haven't shown anything positive yet. I'm sure there will be something. It would be bizarre not to. Trans stuff and further into transhumanism is all over cyberpunk stuff. Look at Mokoto from GITS having existential questions from being full cyborg etc etc.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:47
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If it's a game from a political setting with well defined ideology, then why is there so much outcry that they don't explicitly spell out their intent behind every microdecision. Not that it isn't, but if it's a mature setting, treat it as such.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:48
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Glenn Quebec posted:I'm sure there will be something. It would be bizarre not to. Trans stuff and further into transhumanism is all over cyberpunk stuff. Look at Mokoto from GITS having existential questions from being full cyborg etc etc. Wasnt the main antagonist of the first season also someone who was inhabiting a series of significantly different bodies?
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Jun 13, 2019 16:49
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Firebert posted:Visibly transgender characters in a setting with advanced and ubiquitous biotech/cybertech makes very little sense to me, unless that character is a luddite tbh. If this was 2020 then sure, but in 2077 even the poorest people would have the means to genemod or augment themselves to look however they want This is actually a much more succinct way of stating the point I was trying to make earlier.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:50
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steinrokkan posted:If it's a game from a political setting with well defined ideology, then why is there so much outcry that they don't explicitly spell out their intent behind every microdecision. This is where their lack of a good track record comes in.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:50
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steinrokkan posted:If it's a game from a political setting with well defined ideology, then why is there so much outcry that they don't explicitly spell out their intent behind every microdecision.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:51
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Pylons posted:This is where their lack of a good track record comes in. What bad record? An intern who made a bad tweet?
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Jun 13, 2019 16:51
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Wasnt the main antagonist of the first season also someone who was inhabiting a series of significantly different bodies? Yes, hopping bodies happen in GITS quite often. It's suggested doing it too often and too divergent from your "self" (whatever that may be, which the characters argue about amongst themselves) can make you .... Disconnected. The second film shows this well when Batou runs into a former EWAR soldier he knew who now inhabits a super lovely prosthetic and just stays plugged into the net 24/7/365.
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Jun 13, 2019 16:54
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steinrokkan posted:What bad record? An intern who made a bad tweet? There's also the whole, 'modifying your body inextricably pushes you further away from being an empathetic and rational person.' Which is obviously part of the source material, but not exactly endearing either.
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