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Pylons posted:Follow the conversation better. Why never Dapper_Swindler posted:i think he means of bohemia/late middle ages. like i think that the head warhouse studio is a rear end in a top hat but he was right to bite back at some of the stupid hot take poo poo against his game. The Warhorse guy has been an rear end in a top hat for decades, he's like the Czech Gaben because he made the first internationally successful game in the country (Mafia) so basically nobody ever dares to challenge him and everybody massages his ego. But the tumblr historians who swarmed against the game (whose settings was designed by actual academians, not the Warhorse guy) to lecture on things they never read a single page about were super annoying.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:11
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chitoryu12 posted:He was a woke anti-Gamer Gate guy until someone gave Witcher 3 something like an 8/10 and said it needs a more diverse cast and to use women as props and sex dolls less, at which point he immediately turned around and said Gamer Gate was right. And it was one tiny step from there to "Actually feminism is bad, trans people are crazy, gas the Jews." Now he spends all day tweeting at Trump and brushing ants off his keyboard
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Jun 19, 2019 17:12
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Dapper_Swindler posted:basicaly some tumblr historian said moors and africans were all over the place in rural bohemia because of some painting of an african saint painted in Prague. he laughed at them and talked about how they used tons of historical data to make the game accurate. like the the dude is a conservative rear end in a top hat but living through the USSR in the czech republic can make you one. The blog is Medieval POC, which is dedicated to fighting the myth that medieval Europe was entirely white by providing tons of historical artwork and other evidence depicting black people. There's not only statues and paintings of saints and other unique people, but even just paintings depicting crowd scenes in towns and villages with black people casually inserted. This is in addition to the fact that at this point Europe was engaged heavily in trade as far as China and parts of Spain were still controlled by the Moors. The problem is that he claimed extreme historical accuracy (and in fact marketed the game based on being the most historically accurate medieval game ever) but instead put out something that furthered a racist myth and mocked the more educated people who criticized him.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:13
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i think he means of bohemia/late middle ages. like i think that the head warhouse studio is a rear end in a top hat but he was right to bite back at some of the stupid hot take poo poo against his game. Along with apparently the University of Prague and Charles University using his game in a course teaching medieval history. Dude just doesn't give a gently caress on twitter.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:13
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alex314 posted:Those fans reaction were really I saw some DAN Case machines in the demo room. Did they put those into there? Nice!
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Jun 19, 2019 17:14
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chitoryu12 posted:The blog is Medieval POC, which is dedicated to fighting the myth that medieval Europe was entirely white by providing tons of historical artwork and other evidence depicting black people. There's not only statues and paintings of saints and other unique people, but even just paintings depicting crowd scenes in towns and villages with black people casually inserted. This is in addition to the fact that at this point Europe was engaged heavily in trade as far as China and parts of Spain were still controlled by the Moors. I mean the fact that you think that trade with China meant that Chinese traders were apparently traveling to Europe speaks for itself... E: lol, that blog has a picture of nativity with elephants and camels riding around, and the writer claims it's a picture of typical Dutch landscape
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Jun 19, 2019 17:15
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steinrokkan posted:
thats a good summery of it.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:15
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chitoryu12 posted:The blog is Medieval POC, which is dedicated to fighting the myth that medieval Europe was entirely white by providing tons of historical artwork and other evidence depicting black people. There's not only statues and paintings of saints and other unique people, but even just paintings depicting crowd scenes in towns and villages with black people casually inserted. This is in addition to the fact that at this point Europe was engaged heavily in trade as far as China and parts of Spain were still controlled by the Moors. Yeah, even if he wanted to make his dumb version of history, whatever, that's fine. The problem is him claiming that it's the objective truth, because there is absolutely no such thing in history.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:15
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Bust Rodd posted:“Supported gamergate” is a meaningless word salad to me lol it's two words. Good grief.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:15
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chitoryu12 posted:The blog is Medieval POC, which is dedicated to fighting the myth that medieval Europe was entirely white by providing tons of historical artwork and other evidence depicting black people. There's not only statues and paintings of saints and other unique people, but even just paintings depicting crowd scenes in towns and villages with black people casually inserted. This is in addition to the fact that at this point Europe was engaged heavily in trade as far as China and parts of Spain were still controlled by the Moors. Yeah but the city the game takes place in is at the rear end end of a series of trading routes so it makes way more sense for it to be less diverse and cosmopolitan and also it looks like everyone with a PH.D who weighed in sided with the devs and the blog guy didn’t have any hard data or facts, just a bunch of artistic representations of medieval Europe but nothing to really say about that particular geographic location. Seems, uh, pretty cut and dry to me.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:18
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chitoryu12 posted:The blog is Medieval POC, which is dedicated to fighting the myth that medieval Europe was entirely white by providing tons of historical artwork and other evidence depicting black people. There's not only statues and paintings of saints and other unique people, but even just paintings depicting crowd scenes in towns and villages with black people casually inserted. This is in addition to the fact that at this point Europe was engaged heavily in trade as far as China and parts of Spain were still controlled by the Moors. The blog is bad, peddles a bunch of nonsense conspiracies like the Beethoven stuff and is run by an annoying pretendian. Both MPOC and the KC:D dev are annoying shitheads for different reasons. Also the people most involved in actual trade on the silk road weren't chinese or italians outside of some of the legs.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:21
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There was a disappointing lack of Jewish people in the game even though Bohemia has been historically tolerant of them. Gypsies too.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:23
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Glenn Quebec posted:There was a disappointing lack of Jewish people in the game even though Bohemia has been historically tolerant of them. Gypsies too. Gypsy is and always has been a slur, duder. - a roma
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Jun 19, 2019 17:25
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steinrokkan posted:I mean the fact that you think that trade with China meant that Chinese traders were apparently traveling to Europe speaks for itself... That's not what I said. My point is that Europe was hardly just full of white people who would look at a black guy as if he had two heads. Chinese diplomats are believed to have been visiting Europe as far back as the Roman Empire. Merchants, diplomats, explorers, etc. from non-white countries regularly visited these places. There was a lot more cultural exchange in the 1400s than is commonly depicted. steinrokkan posted:E: lol, that blog has a picture of nativity with elephants and camels riding around, and the writer claims it's a picture of typical Dutch landscape No, the writer is explaining who Pieter Brueghel was. Bust Rodd posted:Yeah but the city the game takes place in is at the rear end end of a series of trading routes so it makes way more sense for it to be less diverse and cosmopolitan and also it looks like everyone with a PH.D who weighed in sided with the devs and the blog guy didn’t have any hard data or facts, just a bunch of artistic representations of medieval Europe but nothing to really say about that particular geographic location. Seems, uh, pretty cut and dry to me. The problem is that sometimes you really need to decide whether you want to do what you're going to do. It's about more than just "Would there be a non-white person in a Bohemian city?" It's that there's a major problem with diversity in medieval fiction, even when it's in fantasy settings, and it's a systemic problem that always gets the "historical accuracy" excuse. Yes, it's perfectly possible that your average adventurer in 15th century Bohemia wouldn't encounter anyone who didn't look like him over the course of his life and it's technically not inaccurate to do that. But it also wouldn't be inaccurate to actually have some diversity and it's a genre that desperately needs a kick in the rear end for it.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:25
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Glenn Quebec posted:There was a disappointing lack of Jewish people in the game even though Bohemia has been historically tolerant of them. Gypsies too. yeah. wern't they mostly in Prague though? i assume bohemia placed the same job restrictions on them as other places in europe. so they would be stuck in the cities.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:26
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Glenn Quebec posted:There was a disappointing lack of Jewish people in the game even though Bohemia has been historically tolerant of them. Gypsies too. I wouldn't call it tolerant - just 20 years before the start of the game there was one of the worst pogroms in the history of Prague, and throughout the whole period they were only allowed to settle in crown towns (as opposed to charter towns or whatever the correct name is in English, and towns owned by the church and nobility) which limited their settlement virtually only to Prague until 1500s when the Jagellonian dynasty relaxed the laws and allowed settlement in all towns and also in some rural contexts.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:28
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chitoryu12 posted:The problem is that sometimes you really need to decide whether you want to do what you're going to do. It's about more than just "Would there be a non-white person in a Bohemian city?" It's that there's a major problem with diversity in medieval fiction, even when it's in fantasy settings, and it's a systemic problem that always gets the "historical accuracy" excuse. Yes, it's perfectly possible that your average adventurer in 15th century Bohemia wouldn't encounter anyone who didn't look like him over the course of his life and it's technically not inaccurate to do that. But it also wouldn't be inaccurate to actually have some diversity and it's a genre that desperately needs a kick in the rear end for it. I absolutely hear what you’re saying but it’s simply not fair to ask someone to privately redress their own artistic vision for the sake of inclusivity and then to attack them when they decline. Also wasn’t the game very specifically about someone who was FROM that area, not someone who was just IN that area?
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Jun 19, 2019 17:29
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Bust Rodd posted:I absolutely hear what you’re saying but it’s simply not fair to ask someone to privately redress their own artistic vision for the sake of inclusivity and then to attack them when they decline. Again, this wouldn't be an issue if he presented it as his artistic vision - and not objective truth, as he did.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:30
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the issue with the kingdom come guy is that he was insanely defensive before anyone had even asked anything pondsmith et al seem to be taking a much more casual approach, responding to criticism as it happens (and imo doing pretty well)
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Jun 19, 2019 17:31
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Serf posted:pondsmith et al seem to be taking a much more casual approach, responding to criticism as it happens (and imo doing pretty well) this. pondsmith is genuinly a pretty good dude and i can easly understand why he snapped at some lovely critque hot takes.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:33
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Bust Rodd posted:I absolutely hear what you’re saying but it’s simply not fair to ask someone to privately redress their own artistic vision for the sake of inclusivity and then to attack them when they decline. If your artistic vision hinges on having an exclusively white cast except for the Turkic invaders, there's something pretty suspicious about your artistic vision. And just because the protagonist was a local doesn't mean you can't change anything. He meets a lot of people and fights alongside them. There's nothing stopping you from writing in a foreign diplomat caught up in the invasion, or a Moorish mercenary that joins you and becomes your buddy.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:33
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chitoryu12 posted:If your artistic vision hinges on having an exclusively white cast except for the Turkic invaders, there's something pretty suspicious about your artistic vision. good points. maybe they will do better in the sequel whenever that hits. apperently its gonna be about the hussite wars.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:35
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Rinkles posted:i mean, i have literally seen that sentiment brought up in relation to that demo. though more as a reason to distrust cdpr's attitudes towards transhumanism than indignation per se. Those must've been some literal IRL David Sarifs then, to not be able to see a transhumanist future where poorer people can join a gang due to their circumstances and one of the prerequisites of that gang being that they peer pressure them into tearing out their biological eyes for exactly this reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-htVPOSBYfs&t=54s Like...seriously, that isn't a reason to distrust cdpr's take on it - it's what makes me trust them even more, because they get how human nature works and how quickly technology can be abused to dehumanize themselves for the sake of a ruthless/more efficient goal (to have better-than-standard eyesight with which to spill blood for a gang better). CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 17:38
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chitoryu12 posted:That's not what I said. My point is that Europe was hardly just full of white people who would look at a black guy as if he had two heads. Chinese diplomats are believed to have been visiting Europe as far back as the Roman Empire. Merchants, diplomats, explorers, etc. from non-white countries regularly visited these places. There was a lot more cultural exchange in the 1400s than is commonly depicted. Cultural exchange is something that happened among the elite classes, and even then the perception was different from what would be understood as diversity today, especially in the more landlocked and insulated areas, which Bohemia definitely was. E.g. Václav Budovec z Budova, one of the leaders of Bohemian estates in 17th century, was perfectly fine learning Turkish and Arabic and serving in Istanbul as the hoffmeister at the Imperial embassy, but he was violently opposed to the idea of inviting any Turks to Bohemia just few decades later, even though his allies faced defeat at the outset of the 30 year war, and the Turks offered an army to help. He rather chose to lose and be executed than, in his own view, to let his Christian virtue be spoiled by making a pact with a heathen and allowing him to defile his land. Not a very progressive worldview, yet he was at that point perhaps the most educated person in Bohemia with the deepest experience of any cultures south of Transylvania. Hell, most old Bohemian nobility was already fed up with something as seemingly innocuous as the foreign and untrustworthy Italians and Spaniards coming in, stealing their land and imposing new and unnatural ways. Now the experience of the land-bound peasant was naturally even less cosmopolitan. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 17:38
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this. pondsmith is genuinly a pretty good dude and i can easly understand why he snapped at some lovely critque hot takes. He's been downright gracious considering he's been getting caught in the lovely crossfire of people who still think a social media fight from 6 years ago is a life and death thing. quote:He rather chose to lose and be executed than, in his own view, to let his Christian virtue be spoiled by making a pact with a heathen and allowing him to defile his land. Bourbon France was hella pragmatic on that front, preferring alliances with the Ottomans and recruiting mercenaries wherever they could up to and including crimean tatars, but was itself bad in plenty of other ways. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jun 19, 2019 |
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Jun 19, 2019 17:41
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Bogus Adventure posted:I want to kick rear end with some "futuristic" shades like the ones from Back to the Future Part II What's with the weird photoshop image? I want a Geordi LaForge visor. Full on 90s sci-fi cheese.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:41
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DE:HR’s extremely heavy handed approach to classism and how it related to transhumanism was unironically the most well-reasoned and prescient take in the series.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:42
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Bust Rodd posted:“Supported gamergate” is a meaningless word salad to me, I disagree with the middle point and I’d have to see the tweet to make that judgment call. I mean Kyle Kachuv or whatever is a Parkland Survivor and I’ve been dunking on him all week. Its two very clear words, so no, it isn't word salad. If you don't know what gamergate is, don't act arrogant about not knowing it, just ask. People will be happy to inform you. Bust Rodd posted:I don't know what gamergate is? It was some toxic incels on the internet banding together to hate on women involved in videogames. Bad stuff. To support those toxic incels is also not good, as should be self-evident. Doxxing and harassing women because they're women is bad, k?
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Jun 19, 2019 17:44
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Bust Rodd posted:DE:HR’s extremely heavy handed approach to classism and how it related to transhumanism was unironically the most well-reasoned and prescient take in the series. It deffo struck a chord with me, but yea...heavy-handed because it had to  explain far too much through conversations and not quite as much showing (it's also why I loved the Chinese part of the game most, because it actually did a lot more of that). It's why I'm also looking forward to this game - I don't need to spend time for the game explaining this poo poo to me with a verbal diarrhea...I can instead look at something shocking, which is taken for normal in a certain context of this game, and just think for a moment as to why I'm seeing what I'm seeing. Or I guess I can just call it 'racist' or whatever and tweet about it.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:50
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CrazyLoon posted:It deffo struck a chord with me, but yea...heavy-handed because it had to i am genuinly curious about cyberpunk red now because i want to see how much of the lore gets changed. i assume arasaka is loving gone as is the company.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:55
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i am genuinly curious about cyberpunk red now because i want to see how much of the lore gets changed. i assume arasaka is loving gone as is the company. The company still exists in 2077 and iirc the background info was that it was shunted to one of his heirs as the new CEO, some of the stuff from 2030 gets retconned though which is good
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Jun 19, 2019 17:58
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i am genuinly curious about cyberpunk red now because i want to see how much of the lore gets changed. i assume arasaka is loving gone as is the company. From what I've been able to get from recent interviews, yea...2020's ending is canon in as much as Arasaka got fought to a standstill, but they retconned v3.0 so that the current situation in 2077 is that the Net went dark back then and became super localized, not enough backups were made before it crashed (other than what exists in the dark part of it, that's full of rogue AIs and viruses where Netrunners can get their brain fried fast). Meaning, that there is no real history whatsoever that is common knowledge and society lives in the present and without any kind of past to reliably reference (other than urban legends). And yea...that was Pondsmith's stated goal with the tabletop Red...to see how we arrive to that kind of result in 2077. Hope it's better than v3.0, cuz yea...that's the goofier part that got retconned and has Arasaka going nuclear maniac and poo poo. 
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Jun 19, 2019 18:02
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Combat Pretzel posted:Oh boy, how much longer and how much more demos to April 2020? Is this a criticism of my post? Because I'm really not sure.
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Jun 19, 2019 18:17
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Agnosticnixie posted:The company still exists in 2077 and iirc the background info was that it was shunted to one of his heirs as the new CEO, some of the stuff from 2030 gets retconned though which is good i guess. CrazyLoon posted:From what I've been able to get from recent interviews, yea...2020's ending is canon in as much as Arasaka got fought to a standstill, but they retconned v3.0 so that the current situation in 2077 is that the Net went dark back then and became super localized, not enough backups were made before it crashed (other than what exists in the dark part of it, that's full of rogue AIs and viruses where Netrunners can get their brain fried fast). Meaning, that there is no real history whatsoever that is common knowledge and society lives in the present and without any kind of past to reliably reference (other than urban legends). yeah. i know its now a unified timeline. so 2077 is in the same universe as 2020 but decades after red.
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Jun 19, 2019 18:17
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Imma play this game and like it.
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Jun 19, 2019 18:29
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Bust Rodd posted:I resent the idea that you can’t have transgressive attitudes and ideologies represented in a fictional, dystopian universe. Why are so many people demanding respectful and woke depictions from a game that isn’t respectful of anyone? Nobody in this game looks good, or healthy, or is represented as anything other than a hypersexualized, hyper-violent stereotype. they don't actually play video games
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Jun 19, 2019 18:36
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CharlestonJew posted:they don't actually play video games Pretty dumb take.
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Jun 19, 2019 18:37
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no YOU'RE dumb!
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Jun 19, 2019 18:38
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Look Sir Droids posted:lol it's two words. Good grief. maybe his home is famous for its two ingredient salads
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Jun 19, 2019 18:58
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El_Elegante posted:maybe his home is famous for its two ingredient salads My salad has only two ingredients: tortilla chips and salsa.
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