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security exists to be the antagonist, crime isn't fun if there's no one to stop you and having a band of humourless thugs out trying to foil your plan only makes it more impressive when it succeeds
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Jun 20, 2019 22:28
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 14:52 |
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cock hero flux posted:security exists to be the antagonist, crime isn't fun if there's no one to stop you and having a band of humourless thugs out trying to foil your plan only makes it more impressive when it succeeds I disagree, crime is always fun.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:34
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BattleCattle posted:I disagree, crime is always fun. if there's no law, there is no crime
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Jun 20, 2019 22:38
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cock hero flux posted:if there's no law, there is no crime 
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Jun 20, 2019 22:59
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Just frame everyone you dislike, then frame everyone you do like and beat the poo poo out of everyone until they ally with the antags to fight you. That must be funny as hell.
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Jun 20, 2019 23:02
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In this case though it isn't a good idea! Also crime may not be fun without antagonists which I will cede but the problem is there are other players on both sides of the exchange, how do you make 'be a humorless thug' fun? Its a question no ss13 server has really answered. Giving them shitloads of guns and equipment just leads to greater abuse potential with no real net gain in entertainment. Making them rigidly obey laws and strictures is WAY out! Openly competing against a visible and obvious threat can be fun but a lot of antagonists aren't that and the ones that are tend to either outgun you and fight in a manner that gives you no recourse, such as wizards. Eh, I don't have any good answers. Although the way I see it there could be some kind've external, non player driven, obvious threat that occasionally shows up to give the thugs an unambiguously heroic purpose so that they're not always in constant conflict with the rest of the crew and their antics.
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Jun 20, 2019 23:11
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Honest to god the first idea that pops in my head is 'ghost posessable eggs that hatch into verminous aliens that are basically reskinned monkeys with even less abilities whose only purpose is to spread even more chaos yet also be ineffectual easy wins for security'
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Jun 20, 2019 23:21
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Well, I thank God you're not a dev, but I appreciate your passion for your ideas.
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Jun 20, 2019 23:30
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Glory to Italia!
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I find the flip side of security is that sometimes you rescue a hapless crewman from an antagonist and improve their round, since they may have also been in the middle of a gimmick they spent most of the round on. It helps to prioritise saving people over catching the antag, especially when you're the only officer. Usually if I'm calling for help/backup on the radio, it comes from people I've rescued earlier on. Or it doesn't come at all 
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Jun 20, 2019 23:35
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ILL Machina posted:Well, I thank God you're not a dev, but I appreciate your passion for your ideas. yeah that idea is mad dumb, like I said, off the top of my dumb skull.
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Jun 21, 2019 00:11
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Part of the problem is you have roughly an hour to pull off a gimmick with a complicated setup, and any interruption like shitsec means you can't do cool poo poo this hour. But all the people without a cool gimmick are ready to restart inside of an hour. That's what extended is for, the complicated but cool poo poo - except extended actually means badmin fuckery.
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Jun 21, 2019 00:43
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rndmnmbr posted:Part of the problem is you have roughly an hour to pull off a gimmick with a complicated setup, and any interruption like shitsec means you can't do cool poo poo this hour. I feel you, honestly if I was gonna make a sequel to ss13 I'd go for rounds lasting at least an hour with no 'gamemodes' but a system to dynamically inject antagonists with the aim of keeping the chaos levels roughly consistent (and consistently escalating) as well as mechanics for getting players back into the round early or allowing for them to leave, keeping the station intact longer and more reliably so that when you finally do wreck the entire place its that much more of an achievement. Maybe sprinkle in some dynamic station layout and configuration stuff so you're not always kicking over the same house of cards and you can combat all the known quantity that plagues ss13 Than again the whole 'sequel to ss13' is a pipe dream itself :V
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Jun 21, 2019 01:12
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Speaking of shitsec, I applied over at goonstation for HoS. So if there is anyone here who was wronged by Wilt Rangdow, now is your time to get revengeance.
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Jun 21, 2019 02:48
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rndmnmbr posted:Part of the problem is you have roughly an hour to pull off a gimmick with a complicated setup, and any interruption like shitsec means you can't do cool poo poo this hour. If you're traitoring with a gimmick in mind during an Extended round, try messaging the admins to let them know. Chances are they'll either help your gimmick in some way if it's a good one (and probably keep their plans from intersecting yours), or maybe even involve you in their own planned chaos.
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Jun 21, 2019 03:03
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Motherfucker posted:In this case though it isn't a good idea! The answer was to give the rest of the station carte-blanche to gently caress with security as much as they wanted to and only stop short of killing them, which was perfect because it created a sense of separation between sec and everyone else which encouraged them to act as the antagonist to shenanigans, and also kept them in line and gave bored people something to do. back in the day as a security officer if you ran around with your baton out it was stolen in 30 seconds. They were the fun police, but they were also continuously getting owned by random staff assistants and the clown and it was funny to see someone trying to take themselves seriously in this bullshit space game slip on a banana peel, get tased by their own taser, and then have a rando run off with their shoes. This is what worked for years. then at some point the server admins decided this wasn't okay, cracked down on it and now we have the current situation where security is either totally ineffectual and trying to be "in on the joke", where crime becomes meaningless and dull because the police will just hand you a ticket which does nothing if they catch you, or they are humourless thugs who act as fun police but also don't have to be the butt of everyone else's jokes.
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Jun 21, 2019 06:25
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I thought we were still in that prior era. What changed?
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Jun 21, 2019 08:05
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Neddy Seagoon posted:If you're traitoring with a gimmick in mind during an Extended round, try messaging the admins to let them know. Chances are they'll either help your gimmick in some way if it's a good one (and probably keep their plans from intersecting yours), or maybe even involve you in their own planned chaos. Oh I have nothing against badmin fuckery. As a matter of fact I'm really hoping to be Macho Man one day, or better one of two and we can fight it out to see who is the real Maetzoe Maenn. Badmin fuckery can be lots of fun, and the admins are good at getting people involved with it. But if you're wanting to do something like Royal Initrobeedril hellsmoke from first principles, good loving luck because the rounds aren't long enough to pull that off, let alone if anyone fucks with you.
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Jun 21, 2019 08:46
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Periodic reminder for the thread: Motherfucker has been permabanned from Goon several times for being repeatedly awful. His pronouncements on Goonstation culture should probably be taken with a grain of salt. As for 'what changed', the short answer is that people stopped playing sec. It just wasn't fun to be in a role that repeatedly got poo poo on by everyone and told that you were playing the role wrong, regardless of what you do. The ones who liked being no-fun-guy drifted off to less chaotic servers, the ones who played the role for fun roleplay opportunities realized they could play other jobs and have all that fun without the pressure of actually trying to enforce law and order. A few of the better ones made their way up to HOS, then to admin, then stopped playing altogether because adminning takes up a lot of time. Sure, you could sneer about how those people were being pussies about it, but for every officer who lives for the challenge, there were several more who stopped playing sec because they got tired of being repeatedly disarmed and stripped by the clown in arrivals. And it doesn't take very long before good-natured fun becomes a little less good-natured. As much as some people dislike it, every once in a while the admins have to crack down on people being excessively lovely to sec so the role actually gets put to use. Of course sometimes the pendulum swings the other way and admins have to crack down on exceptionally lovely sec. The cycle plays out every so often, and I don't think there's a simple solution to the issue.
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Jun 21, 2019 09:40
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My favourite thing to do as security is when I arrest a traitor to brag about how much time they are going to get, put all their items in a backpack in a clearly unlocked locker next to the brig, and then give them 30 seconds, maybe a minute if they killed more than 3 people Basically as security I think if you try to be a speedbump more than an actual fun-sponge everybody is happy, except maybe that one chemist who is always screaming over the radio about how bad security is, but no one will miss him if he goes suspiciously missing after the traitor has served their time for the third time
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Jun 21, 2019 10:04
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Inadequately posted:Periodic reminder for the thread: Motherfucker has been permabanned from Goon several times for being repeatedly awful. His pronouncements on Goonstation culture should probably be taken with a grain of salt. It is true but also ss13 is like a decade old... older even and I've been in and out for most of it, some of which time I was a literal child, Is there a statute of limitations on being a jerk in video games? On a long enough timeline I would argue anyone could screw up in a banworthy way. Also yeah, I think you're pretty much spot on. No server really has ideal security, they range from baton fondling goons all the way to keystone cops but it always runs counter to the 'inmates running an asylum' hedonism that makes ss13 really good.
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Jun 21, 2019 10:05
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believe it or not a vast majority of people never cause problems worth a warning much less a ban, but there exists a small percentage of serial troublemakers who complain about everything except themselves. the admins suck, the rules suck, other players suck... what could be the common thread in all these situations that suck? it's very puzzling.
Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 10:11
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0lives posted:My favourite thing to do as security is when I arrest a traitor to brag about how much time they are going to get, put all their items in a backpack in a clearly unlocked locker next to the brig, and then give them 30 seconds, maybe a minute if they killed more than 3 people it's this exact attitude that has removed all the tension from playing antagonist. security responds to everything with slaps on the wrist and tends to ignore anything that isn't an active rampage. if getting caught doesn't result in me getting a one-way trip out the airlock then playing any kind of antagonist is basically just farting around occasionally killing people with no repercussions. there's only so many gimmicks you can come up with and if they're pretty much guaranteed to succeed it isn't all that fun.
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Jun 21, 2019 10:15
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Mimesweeper posted:believe it or not a vast majority of people never cause problems worth a warning much less a ban, but there exists a small percentage of serial troublemakers who complain about everything except themselves. Ok but like... if I complained about myself that would be really loving weird, serial troublemaker or no. Anyway I'm sure there's a rotating 'majority' of people who slip in play for a while and quietly fade away without really making waves but like I said, on a LONG timeline I would challenge he that is without sin to cast the first poo.
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Jun 21, 2019 10:20
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no, there's a ton of long term players who have no problem making fun rounds, rolling with whatever happens, and not causing trouble. again i realize this is difficult to believe but it's true. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 11:31
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my immediate input on this is that the worst kind of security is the kind that thinks their job is only to stop "antags" and will let people away with anything unless they can prove (via blood, traitor gear, whatever) that said person is one of the Enemies of the round I'm not sure why it rankles so much since I don't care about "light rp" and find it v annoying when people aid and abet antagonists (see Friendwizards), I think it's the way in which the mindset turns sec's role from a potential straight man/comedically inept bureaucrat/source of tension into just being the guys who are there to fight the Baddies of the round and "win". They don't have an organic or interesting role any more, no potential to interact with the crew in a fashion that generates interesting situations or stories - they just roll through playing Counterstrike and the rest of us are background flavour
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Jun 21, 2019 11:36
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And as we all know, the most prized trait of any ss13 players is 'causes no trouble'. Its whatever dude but I think your perspective is warped by being the zookeeper.
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Jun 21, 2019 11:38
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cock hero flux posted:it's this exact attitude that has removed all the tension from playing antagonist. security responds to everything with slaps on the wrist and tends to ignore anything that isn't an active rampage. if getting caught doesn't result in me getting a one-way trip out the airlock then playing any kind of antagonist is basically just farting around occasionally killing people with no repercussions. there's only so many gimmicks you can come up with and if they're pretty much guaranteed to succeed it isn't all that fun.  What are the alternatives? I can't be judge, jury, executioner, and actually running a trial is not something I would attempt 30 minutes into a round that wasn't on the roleplaying serverI've killed my fair share of bad doers, I just try to make that not my first resort. I don't want to turn the round into an extended round and I don't think it's fair to think of security as dungeon masters; the job is stressful enough as it is In my idealized scenario before, you'd still have to break into the brig to get any traitor gear lost, and hopefully my taunting would have added me to the hit list, my goal is to keep the ball rolling, not to end tension, I would still arrest you every time I caught you doing crimes
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Jun 21, 2019 11:41
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my perspective is informed by seeing everything that goes on over years and years, after playing for a bunch of other years. but yeah, it's whatever. edit: the post below mine is a perfect example of what i meant by playing security in a fun way. that's exactly how to do it. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 11:47
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0lives posted:
arresting a traitor in order to let them go a minute later is just about the worst thing you can do. not only does it not add to the tension at all(if getting arrested means being inconvenienced for less than 2 minutes it really isn't worth worrying about), but if they are just trying to do some gimmick you're only interfering with it. So you're completely failing to add to the first kind of entertainment(tension) and actively hindering the second kind(gimmicks). the correct thing to do when you catch a confirmed antagonist is execute them in the most elaborate way you can manage. Stunning them, cuffing them, and then clubbing them to death is very dull and should be reserved for rampagers. Instead, fire them out the chapel mass driver, throw them into the crusher, build an electic chair, get telescience to beam them into the engine furnace chamber, give them to genetics, etc. This provides tension(if the antagonist is caught, he can reasonably expect that you're going to kill him and thus he will not want to be caught), it can be a fun gimmick if you come up with weird poo poo(I used to throw traitors with no jumpsuits in a plasma filled room with a mechanical toolbox and an emergency oxygen tank and tell them if they could get out without burning to death or suffocating they were cleared), but the most important part is that doing stupid bond villain style executions adds points of failure to the process that the traitor can try to use to escape and go on the run. Escaping from a death trap is far more interesting than getting caught murdering someone by security and having them go "aw shucks" and send you on your way with a hearty slap on the bum.
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Jun 21, 2019 11:53
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Ah damnit I knew I was having fun wrong this whole time. Well shucks.
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Jun 21, 2019 12:19
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stick em with a tracking implant and occasionally pop up next to them to shout BOO, flash them and go away again
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Jun 21, 2019 12:45
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Still waiting for coders to add child avatars and a school/teacher job just like they have on the USS Enterprise. Then we can properly celebrate captain day.
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Jun 21, 2019 13:22
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One big hurdle playing sec is everyone has a different opinion of whats justified and if you change what you are doing to suit all the people watching you will do a pretty poo poo job at security. Another thing is every minute you spend punishing a miscreant is a minute that antags are running around unopposed. I think the brig is an unimaginative and lovely way to deal with most things. I think its good to be very liberal with the baton and cuffs because things are usually too fast paced and confusing to try and work out the situation before detaining someone, just release them quickly if theres no evidence of serious wrongdoing. Some situations are nearly impossible to please everyone you just gotta go with your gut. Like if two people are fighting to the death its not easy to work out who instigated it and who's acting in self defence. I will stun and cuff them both if I can and usually work out whos the bad one by how they behave during this process, of course both of them (and everyone watching) will call you a retard but you just have to cop it. If you got a geniune antag whos doing a gimmick or some light-rp then I think a little brig sentence and confiscation is an okay punishment. If they're a dangerous antag type, very robust, belligerent or just murderboning people the best course is usually just to kill them and then be vague with the crew as to the exact cause of death.
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Jun 21, 2019 13:24
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the brig does suck and is conceptually incredibly boring. it makes sense on RP servers but this isn't one. remove brig(leave one holding cell but it should be a place to put people for a minute while you decide what to do with them) and give security a variety of Punishment Implants to use instead. like a House Arrest Implant that shocks you if you leave specified areas, a Crime Impedance implant which gives you a chance to fumble attacks, door hacking, and other crime-related actions, a Danger Alarm implant which causes you to emit a warning siren whenever you switch to harm intent or pick up a weapon, a Flight Prevention implant which causes you to trip and fall on your face when you're on run mode, an Access Verification implant which causes doors to take 10 times longer to open for you, etc. basically things which actually punish people(unlike tickets) but which are also more interesting than just sitting there waiting for 10 minutes for your brig timer to go off
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Jun 21, 2019 14:10
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Implant ideas are fun because they're also really easy to remove and then be reused for nefarious purposes.
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Jun 21, 2019 14:17
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If you're gonna remove the brig entirely, you might as well go whole hog and implement something that does not prevent creative mischief, only makes crime somewhat harder, and makes low-effort poo poo-disturbers really angry. Which is to say, there should be a console that Sec officers can swipe a confiscated ID through in order to temporarily set its profession to Criminal and change it to Clown access. It could last for like ten minutes if need be, as being an illegal clown is much more entertaining than staring at the wall in the brig. If you want to put a little more effort into it you could set up some kind of temporary RFID tracking tag system or whatever but that sounds simultaneously dumb and dystopian compared to just "George Melons broke into EVA so he's a clown for the next ten minutes and it is entirely legal to push him down and fart on him"
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Jun 21, 2019 14:30
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cock hero flux posted:arresting a traitor in order to let them go a minute later is just about the worst thing you can do. not only does it not add to the tension at all(if getting arrested means being inconvenienced for less than 2 minutes it really isn't worth worrying about), but if they are just trying to do some gimmick you're only interfering with it. So you're completely failing to add to the first kind of entertainment(tension) and actively hindering the second kind(gimmicks). Tension for the crew or tension for you alone? You'd be shocked to hear that most shifts, the crew could give less of a shut how elaborate your execution is if they haven't inflicted grievous harm to the labor pool or the station proper. Are you suggesting that sleuthing has to stop entirely for tension, whether yours alone or shared as a whole, be completely stopped so that the antagonists have a chance to thoroughly clean house? It's about the same as a slap on the wrist if so.
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Jun 21, 2019 14:44
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Victory Position posted:Tension for the crew or tension for you alone? You'd be shocked to hear that most shifts, the crew could give less of a shut how elaborate your execution is if they haven't inflicted grievous harm to the labor pool or the station proper. i've read this 3 times and can't actually figure out what you're trying to say
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Jun 21, 2019 14:46
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I get beat up by Security all the time as the Chef. "People said your food poisoned them" "People said your food set them on fire" "People said your food froze them in an ice block" Uh, yeah. I'm the Chef. If they get overzealous I just /succumb and hope they feel bad. In most cases I am just bruised and relegated to not doing my job for fear that the crew might actually eat a leg-pizza or something.
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Jun 21, 2019 14:48
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 14:52 |
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Another security problem: If you do a good job the round goes for 2 hours cause nothing bad happens
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Jun 21, 2019 18:07
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