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Vermain posted:This is actually weirdly important to ShB's narrative structure. (Big spoilers to follow, obviously.) 
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Jul 10, 2019 20:37
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Captain Oblivious posted:Very shortly before Amaurot, when you're talking to Ryne and she's voicing her doubts to you. This scene was just an amazing moment for the writing. It establishes even more that the WoL actually exists and is affected by the people in the world that they help. There's now a direct line between the compassion that Haurchefaunt shows you in returning a favor to a fleeing criminal who believes they have just lost everything because he believes in you to Ryne realizing that she has two good legs to stand on of her own, and that she is a person worthy of existing in and of herself, regardless of what the world might think it needs, and that thread is the WoL and your experiences informing your actions later. Makes me want to go back to that cliffside and tell a new story to an old friend. 
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Jul 10, 2019 20:38
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:This scene was just an amazing moment for the writing. It establishes even more that the WoL actually exists and is affected by the people in the world that they help. There's now a direct line between the compassion that Haurchefaunt shows you in returning a favor to a fleeing criminal who believes they have just lost everything because he believes in you to Ryne realizing that she has two good legs to stand on of her own, and that she is a person worthy of existing in and of herself, regardless of what the world might think it needs, and that thread is the WoL and your experiences informing your actions later. Don't forget to leave out a new set of flowers.
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Jul 10, 2019 20:53
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Let us hug! LET US HUG!
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Jul 10, 2019 20:59
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Azubah posted:Don't forget to leave out a new set of flowers. 
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Jul 10, 2019 21:02
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Thundarr posted:This is pretty interesting. I'm not sure how closely it hews to the actual intent of the writing team, but the placement of some of the bosses in the story Philia and Storge in particular lends it some weight and it's a well thought out theory either way. I think it tracks fairly closely with their intent, especially given (end of MSQ spoilers) that your final confrontation with Emet is also about love. There's all the previous types of love brought up - love of family, love of friends, love of beauty, etc. - that Emet seethes over, but there's also a final dimension of love that's added in: philautia, the love of the self. For all that Emet sneers whenever he says the word, 'hero,' he considers himself to be the ultimate hero, believing that he has to take on the hopes and despair of an entire race of people that were wiped from the earth. He's your dark mirror, because you were doing the same thing: taking on the entire burden of saving Norvrandt - represented by the power of the Lightwardens - onto yourself, something that begins to destroy your very soul. At your darkest moment, the thing that ultimately saves you is your willingness to truly love yourself enough to recognize that no one can carry that kind of burden alone. Merging with Ardbert is a recognition that you need the support of others to triumph, and it's only after you do that the Crystal Exarch summons the aid of others to help you carry the world's burdens. Emet doesn't - he has no one left that he trusts or relies on, and believes it's his solemn cross to carry. He's ultimately broken not merely by you, but by the weight of the history he tries to keep aloft by his power alone.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:04
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Vermain posted:I think it tracks fairly closely with their intent, especially given (end of MSQ spoilers) The Exarch pulls the same thing. Believing he needs to decieve you to set himself up as a villain so he can make the ultimate sacrifice. Absent that knowledge you operate somewhat blindly because you don't really have any other options. The Exarch, Emet, and Urianger have taken them away from you. It's only once the external deceptions have been stripped away that you can start to look critically at yourself, to know you need help and you always did.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:20
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MelvinBison posted:Post-credits spoiler: After that, I also kind of want Zodiark to be like “To be honest, I have no beef with any of you, I was just fighting some super Cthulhu that really wiped out the ancients.”
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Jul 10, 2019 21:31
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I think the writers should avoid writing riddles in the future if they're not interested in clearly pointing out what they're looking for. Overthought that solution by a mile.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:33
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Vermain posted:I think it tracks fairly closely with their intent, especially given (end of MSQ spoilers) that your final confrontation with Emet is also about love. There's all the previous types of love brought up - love of family, love of friends, love of beauty, etc. - that Emet seethes over, but there's also a final dimension of love that's added in: philautia, the love of the self. For all that Emet sneers whenever he says the word, 'hero,' he considers himself to be the ultimate hero, believing that he has to take on the hopes and despair of an entire race of people that were wiped from the earth. He's your dark mirror, because you were doing the same thing: taking on the entire burden of saving Norvrandt - represented by the power of the Lightwardens - onto yourself, something that begins to destroy your very soul. This theme is also prevalent in some of the side quests as well, especially in the lakeland sidequests that have you help a knight who lost his courage and a girl who lost her father and what she thought of as her place in the world. Not only do you help both of them, but you revisit them later in another sidequest where meeting you not only saved them from their original problems, but allowed them to help each other, and in doing so help the rest of the world. Shadowbringers puts to shame the lie that a grand sacrifice is necessary to accomplish things sometimes. The reason we have those fakeouts from Y'shtola, Thancred, and the Exarch is they all believe they're in the right to sacrifice themselves for noble reasons, but the thing they always forgot was that their very existence made the world a better place, and they needed people to remind them of that. All three of them were prepared to die, but were brought back from the brink by the people who care about them. That it's Ardbert, the leader of the original Warriors of Darkness, who all killed themselves just to try to save their world, and then brought back minfilia, who in turn and along with the other warriors of darkness sacrificed themselves to stop the flood, handing you that axe is a moment of clarity for both characters. Both of you were warriors who took the entire world on your shoulders because you believed you had to, when in reality doing that consistently just made things worse. You're admitting to yourself and each other that you were wrong, and in doing so you both become capable of doing something neither of you possibly could have done on your own. This writing is so fuckin good guys, I swear.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:36
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Azubah posted:Don't forget to leave out a new set of flowers. How about a mug of hot chocolate instead?
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Jul 10, 2019 21:39
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Thundarr posted:Pugilist is the first job to get a full 123 combo (by level 6), which also establishes the main flow of the job. Everything they get after that adds complexity to the formula rather than changing it drastically, so you should be able to determine early on if you like the class or not. You get the Pugilist BnB real early, and the game does a good job of beating that rotation into you. Up to like 25 it's a simple 1,2,3 and then you get another skill so it sort of like 1,2a,3 into 1,2b,3; which you just alternate until dead enemy
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Jul 10, 2019 21:42
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i want to hug ardbert
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Jul 10, 2019 21:43
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Galaga Galaxian posted:How about a mug of hot chocolate instead? Don't forget to do a few squats and pushups. LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:This writing is so fuckin good guys, I swear. It's crazy impressive and every time I rewatch the cutscenes or go through this thread, posts like your's and Vermain's make me realize there is yet more to the story I missed.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:46
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Kaubocks posted:i want to hug ardbert Don't do a hug bot.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:46
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i was already having an emotional day and now all these good posts are gonna make me cry
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Jul 10, 2019 21:53
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I love that the entire Ascian storyline is, basically, "You aren't wrong, you're just an rear end in a top hat."
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Jul 10, 2019 21:53
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Yeah like that's amazing lore analysis itt and I didn't think I could love the story more, but I was wrong. Though, this came up with some friends and I just want to add my own analysis onto our favorite Ascian's character. Namely that saying that Emet views himself as a hero, is ultimately right I think. I think there's a running theme that in some way he doesn't actually believe what he says. For example when he says that everyone is a half shade he could sweep away and it wouldn't be murder. He says that but...he doesn't do it. I think his story arc and ending is ultimately him coming to the realization that even if his dream is in some way noble, how he's doing it is abhorrent. That's why he's so focused on 'testing' you. He doesn't really believe that everyone is a half shade. His conscience was catching up to him. And at least I feel at the end he understood, truly, what he was doing.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:57
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Eimi posted:Yeah like that's amazing lore analysis itt and I didn't think I could love the story more, but I was wrong. This thread ties into Amaurot's creation on the first. Emet has gone for thousands of years without being in this place, and it didn't exist before he went there after the beginning of ShB, according to the fish people down there. It's a guess, but it implies that he created that entire city because he knew what he was doing was wrong and wanted to escape back to a time when everything made sense. It might also be he knew you might beat him and was, in his own way, saying good bye, and making sure that at least some people knew that Amaurot existed before he left, even if the only people who would know were his mortal enemies. It'd be why his final words were "Remember that we existed."
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Jul 10, 2019 22:12
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Eimi posted:Yeah like that's amazing lore analysis itt and I didn't think I could love the story more, but I was wrong. I'm inclined to agree, especially as I like the theory that we were the 14th member of Amaurot's ruling council. We were one of Emet's closest friends and most respected peers, and I suspect Emet briefly seeing us as an Ascian reminded him painfully of Amaurot's final days: we disagreed with him then, too, and struck out for what we believed was right rather than trying to save Amaurot. Eons later, and here we are again face to face with him, and we're still doing the same thing, fighting for the same beliefs just as he is. I get the feeling that at the end, Emet finally realized we were right. We were right when the Final Days began, and we're right this time, too. I really wonder if the story's going to dwell on us being an Ascian. It's never explicitly spelled out, but I think the WoL could put the pieces together. At least how I imagine the WoL, she's spending a lot of time in Amaurot and undergoing a hell of an existential crisis right now.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:15
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Kurieg posted:And the cutscene afterwards has the pope grabbing the eye and turning into king arthur
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Jul 10, 2019 22:16
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:This thread ties into Amaurot's creation on the first. Emet has gone for thousands of years without being in this place, and it didn't exist before he went there after the beginning of ShB, according to the fish people down there. It's a guess, but it implies that he created that entire city because he knew what he was doing was wrong and wanted to escape back to a time when everything made sense. It might also be he knew you might beat him and was, in his own way, saying good bye, and making sure that at least some people knew that Amaurot existed before he left, even if the only people who would know were his mortal enemies. It'd be why his final words were "Remember that we existed." I kinda felt that it was one final effort to have the WoL remember the old life. Emet-Selch could have easily taken the Exarch anywhere, possibly up to and including the rift, but he deliberately gave you the invitation. He never had to stick around if he thought he would have lost the fight, as the light would have taken over dooming the shard anyways.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:19
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:This thread ties into Amaurot's creation on the first. Emet has gone for thousands of years without being in this place, and it didn't exist before he went there after the beginning of ShB, according to the fish people down there. It's a guess, but it implies that he created that entire city because he knew what he was doing was wrong and wanted to escape back to a time when everything made sense. It might also be he knew you might beat him and was, in his own way, saying good bye, and making sure that at least some people knew that Amaurot existed before he left, even if the only people who would know were his mortal enemies. It'd be why his final words were "Remember that we existed." I think he really just wants you to see it his way. I think his bit where he expresses disappointment that you can't contain the light and that he really wanted to try to ally with you is genuine. He's a huge rear end in a top hat but the vibe I get across this expansion is that he's being genuine when he helps out and is, at least partially, hoping that by showing you where he's coming from and what he's fighting for that you might just... give up, or help him. See that he's right, instead of fighting against what he sees as best for the world. The state of the city is his last ditch way of trying to get you to doubt yourself and give up.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:21
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 shadow just got brought
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Jul 10, 2019 22:22
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Glagha posted:I think he really just wants you to see it his way. I think his bit where he expresses disappointment that you can't contain the light and that he really wanted to try to ally with you is genuine. He's a huge rear end in a top hat but the vibe I get across this expansion is that he's being genuine when he helps out and is, at least partially, hoping that by showing you where he's coming from and what he's fighting for that you might just... give up, or help him. See that he's right, instead of fighting against what he sees as best for the world. The state of the city is his last ditch way of trying to get you to doubt yourself and give up. He thinks that 7 rejoinings may have actually been enough for you to be closer to an ascian soul. Apparently not. Also one question... if when you die on one of the realms your soul goes into the lifestream and newly born people get souls plucked from the lifestream and each rejoining has the effect of merging souls... do "rejoinings" really truly kill anyone? If the Ascian plans stopped with rejoinings and not the "sacrifice almost everyone to zodiark to restore the people of amaurot" thing would anyone really "die"?
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Jul 10, 2019 22:27
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Just because your soul exists and goes on to reincarnate doesn't mean you're alive. The new owner of your soul isn't you. Also do crafters still need to get CUL to 15 first for cross class skill reasons?
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Jul 10, 2019 22:34
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hobbesmaster posted:Also one question... if when you die on one of the realms your soul goes into the lifestream and newly born people get souls plucked from the lifestream and each rejoining has the effect of merging souls... do "rejoinings" really truly kill anyone? If the Ascian plans stopped with rejoinings and not the "sacrifice almost everyone to zodiark to restore the people of amaurot" thing would anyone really "die"? Physically yes spiritually no.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:34
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hobbesmaster posted:He thinks that 7 rejoinings may have actually been enough for you to be closer to an ascian soul. Apparently not. Metaphysical spoilers: They do kill the people who had the souls on the rejoined shards. They're reincarnated, presumably joined with the rest of that soul on the source, but the person who was there is dead. Similarly, Ardbert is dead, even though his soul lives on through us. efb
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Jul 10, 2019 22:34
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Finally went back and took the bandwagon picture. I was too hype to think about screenshots the first time around.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:38
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Ytlaya posted:I like the Amh Araeng music a lot. The normal battle music is kind of goofy and feels really out of place alongside the zone music, though. I too like lofi - beats to study/relax to
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Jul 10, 2019 22:39
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:This scene was just an amazing moment for the writing. It establishes even more that the WoL actually exists and is affected by the people in the world that they help. There's now a direct line between the compassion that Haurchefaunt shows you in returning a favor to a fleeing criminal who believes they have just lost everything because he believes in you to Ryne realizing that she has two good legs to stand on of her own, and that she is a person worthy of existing in and of herself, regardless of what the world might think it needs, and that thread is the WoL and your experiences informing your actions later. Azubah posted:Don't forget to leave out a new set of flowers. Galaga Galaxian posted:How about a mug of hot chocolate instead? Guys, stop. You're going to make me cry at work. 
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Jul 10, 2019 22:41
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Eimi posted:Yeah like that's amazing lore analysis itt and I didn't think I could love the story more, but I was wrong. The conceit is that's the way he's been doing things for 10,000 years, and now we just ruined his latest plan with magic and technology he couldn't even know exists because it doesn't and he's just so tired. He could just wait another thousand years until everyone involved is dead and forgotten, but he's extremely over everything at this point and willing to take a different route to his goal. If we were strong enough to contain the light, the source would be strong enough to be sacrificed to Zodiark. We could be the wardens to protect the populace while they grow numerous enough to be sacrificed. He does seem to still have some of the Amaurot's haughty benevolence, that they have a duty to help everyone else because everyone else is just too weak and stupid. I think Emmet-Selch was the title for the one on the council in charge of public safety, and the last dungeon makes it clear that beyond bringing his people back he's also worried we'll start a true apocalypse like the one they started, except we'll be too weak to stop it.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:50
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Vermain posted:This is actually weirdly important to ShB's narrative structure. (Big spoilers to follow, obviously.) This is super rad as gently caress. Thank you for sharing this. poo poo like this just shows what intense care is put into writing the MSQ. Goddamn this game is phenomenal.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:52
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Wasn't it mentioned that Emet-Selch's office was "Architect"?
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Jul 10, 2019 22:53
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Wasn't it mentioned that Emet-Selch's office was "Architect"? Yes. Emet was the Architect, Elidibus was the Emissary, and Lahabrea was the Speaker.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:54
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SirSamVimes posted:Also do crafters still need to get CUL to 15 first for cross class skill reasons? Didn't this crafter overhaul remove those essential cross-class skills and just give crafters universal skills that they all learn?
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Jul 10, 2019 23:03
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Schubalts posted:Didn't this crafter overhaul remove those essential cross-class skills and just give crafters universal skills that they all learn? Didn't they only do it for steady hand II and byregot's blessing?
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Jul 10, 2019 23:07
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Cythereal posted:Yes. Emet was the Architect, Elidibus was the Emissary, and Lahabrea was the Speaker. Yet in the end, the only thing he was the architect of.. was his own demise. YEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
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Jul 10, 2019 23:26
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SirSamVimes posted:Just because your soul exists and goes on to reincarnate doesn't mean you're alive. The new owner of your soul isn't you. Yeah to get Hasty Touch. If you want to do crafting and especially if you want to use macros to make it all less tedious, you'll want to get a lot of the crafts to 50 at least. And by that point, you might as well suffer through HW crafts because levelling crafts in SB and ShB is pretty painless.
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Jul 10, 2019 23:35
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Cythereal posted:Yes. Emet was the Architect, Elidibus was the Emissary, and Lahabrea was the Speaker. This means that my stupid joke of calling him Seth Rollins is even more accurate! 
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Jul 10, 2019 23:43
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