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The Carcano is also the only major rifle design to reach large scale production numbers of all the major nations that had a hole in the magazine well for the clip to drop out of. As a nation that fought in the desert. And we've already spoken about the machine guns with oilers attached that were hosed immediately.
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Sep 5, 2019 16:11
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Jobbo_Fett posted:The Carcano is also the only major rifle design to reach large scale production numbers of all the major nations that had a hole in the magazine well for the clip to drop out of. As a nation that fought in the desert. And we've already spoken about the machine guns with oilers attached that were hosed immediately. If England is Bad Cav Island Is Italy the Bad Gun Boot?
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Sep 5, 2019 16:13
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Ice Fist posted:If England is Bad Cav Island Bad engineering peninsula
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Sep 5, 2019 16:16
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Ice Fist posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > The Inevitable Milhist Thread: Italy, the Bad Gun Boot
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Sep 5, 2019 16:17
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Everyone knows they need 13 tries to get it right, okay
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Sep 5, 2019 16:21
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xthetenth posted:Decisive battle conceptualized in strategy. There's a case to be made that in aggregate the campaigns of 1942, both the Guadalcanal fighting and the combination of Coral Sea, Midway, Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz formed a 'decisive campaign' in terms of both sides wearing their forces down in the sense that a decisive battle would do, but that in itself wasn't even decisive because both sides got worn down rather than one getting locked in a lanchestrian death spiral. Right, but I was speaking regarding sword duels. Not that officers wouldn't resort to violence to resolve doctrinal or policy disputes. Like I don't think people in Japan's government would be pulling out katana's for samurai showdown style duels in the rain under a cherry blossom tree type deal. I'd imagine at most if you did have a duel it'd be with fencing swords in a European/Western fashion. Though I do believe lots of officers did train sword martial arts and archery but I don't think they were meant to be used as a means of resolving disputes or avenging mah honour.
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Sep 5, 2019 16:22
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JcDent posted:Good thing they didn't have tanks to impede them in their conquest of Greece Wasn't there somebody who figured out how to get past the Italian Alps with heavy matériel  That reminds me, I was watching a video on Ecnomus and learned the Carthaginian navy employed a similar "fake weak center" ruse to what Hannibal used at Cannae. If you're a Roman commander in the Punic Wars facing a Carthaginian army/navy and you cotton on to this particular Phoencian trick, what are the correct counter tactics zoux fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 16:26
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zoux posted:Wasn't there somebody who figured out how to get past the Italian Alps with heavy matériel From what I remember this is trickier than it seems. Because Roman Martial culture seemed to really value the offense and taking the fight to the enemy and a weak center is almost too tempting to pass up; if you pass on it, it might kill your career, label you a coward etc maybe? All battles are sets of circumstances as well too, so even if you are willing and able to not try to push into the center, then wouldn't the Carthaginian commander react to that? If holding your position and outwaiting the Carthaginians is not an option I'd assume your option as a certified armchair general is to strengthen one of your flanks and try to beat one of their flanks in since their center is weakened you only need to worry about the other flank? Like in that battle of was it Thebes (Corinth?) vs Sparta? Where they figured out how to beat the Spartans?
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Sep 5, 2019 16:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:Wasn't this not really a thing in Japan. The Government stamped down hard on the Samurai class during modernization. possibly, but have you considered how mad he would be that so many gorgeous, expensive, and irreplaceable ships were sunk by tiny, cowardly ships that hide beneath the sea? the whole thing is most ungentlemanly and dishonorable.
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Sep 5, 2019 16:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:Right, but I was speaking regarding sword duels. Not that officers wouldn't resort to violence to resolve doctrinal or policy disputes. Like I don't think people in Japan's government would be pulling out katana's for samurai showdown style duels in the rain under a cherry blossom tree type deal. I'd imagine at most if you did have a duel it'd be with fencing swords in a European/Western fashion. These are fighting words, I challenge you to a duel. Katanas at dawn.
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Sep 5, 2019 16:48
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Nenonen posted:Maybe 6.5mm Carcano's calibre would have been insufficient for proper sniping but it seems like they hadn't really thought this through. It’s minute of Kennedy accurate but the bullets are magic.
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Sep 5, 2019 16:59
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SeanBeansShako posted:Man poor Italy is going to get simply hosed with that system. I mean, Desert Tactics and Equipment gives you like a -5% attrition modifier?  E: Although it's profoundest bullshit it's a 1943 technology when the various nations of Europe had been invading deserts and jungles for like 150 years by that point.
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Sep 5, 2019 17:00
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Fascist Italy: the sickest battleships, the best biplanes, and completely prepared for invasion from the north
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Sep 5, 2019 17:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'd imagine at most if you did have a duel it'd be with fencing swords in a European/Western fashion.  ), a committee of Japanese swordsmen came together in 1925 to develop the Toyama-ryu sword style which is still practiced today around the world. I need to link to my source through wayback machine because Kendo World moved all their articles to Patreon. Shame, the illustrations were pretty cool: Forsaken Kendo — Katate guntō-jutsu Edit: Look at these dudes go. 
Siivola fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 17:13
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Jobbo_Fett posted:The Carcano is also the only major rifle design to reach large scale production numbers of all the major nations that had a hole in the magazine well for the clip to drop out of. As a nation that fought in the desert. And we've already spoken about the machine guns with oilers attached that were hosed immediately. I don't know of any cases where the Carcano's clip hole was a problem. The rifle is actually a quite good one and the 6.5mm round was ahead of its time in going to smaller, lighter ammunition. They had more issues with trying to switch to a 7.35mm round at the exact wrong time to completely rework your supply chain.
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Sep 5, 2019 17:44
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chitoryu12 posted:I don't know of any cases where the Carcano's clip hole was a problem. The rifle is actually a quite good one and the 6.5mm round was ahead of its time in going to smaller, lighter ammunition. They had more issues with trying to switch to a 7.35mm round at the exact wrong time to completely rework your supply chain. It lets the sand fall out the bottom right?
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Sep 5, 2019 17:47
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chitoryu12 posted:I don't know of any cases where the Carcano's clip hole was a problem. The rifle is actually a quite good one and the 6.5mm round was ahead of its time in going to smaller, lighter ammunition. They had more issues with trying to switch to a 7.35mm round at the exact wrong time to completely rework your supply chain.
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Sep 5, 2019 17:47
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No, no, you see the middle of a war is the best time to change calibers! That way we can use up the old stuff and won't have to store it!
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Sep 5, 2019 17:48
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Jobbo_Fett posted:They had some good stuff in the navy, so I'm told, but what would imply good doctrine, tactics, and equipment for their forces? I'll try to expand my knowledge on their artillery, because I believe they had some decent designs when it came to mountainous terrain. The Italian navy had pretty rudimentary fire control and non existent night fighting training. They'd likely have gotten clowned on in the early 30's Their ship design was reasonable certainly but not exceptional.
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Sep 5, 2019 17:48
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FAUXTON posted:Everyone knows they need 13 tries to get it right, okay I laughed.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:29
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Rockets and people is in a pretty awesome section, as the author is part of a Soviet expedition looking for German technology. He arrives while Berlin is still fighting (and him and his comrades blunder into Germans a few times with a long-suffering jeep driver) and paints a really interesting portrait of just after the battle was won and the war ended. But have this story of thread favorite, caches of alcohol and soldiers:quote:DIARY ENTRY. 10 May 1945.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:31
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Now I'm kind of wondering what Russia would be like in an alternate universe where humans can't get drunk.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:50
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FrangibleCover posted:It's kind of weird how Italy, Sweden and Japan all had 6.5mm class rifles and then went "oh gently caress everyone else is doing it differently" and went for 7.5mm class rifles instead. I wonder if it was just national peer pressure or if early intermediate cartridges weren't worth it without select fire rifles. People in charge of ordnance departments are well known for making decisions that don't necessarily match reality on the ground because they think they know better. Think the people who wanted Germany to have a semi-auto rifle, but also had to be able to be operated exactly like a bolt-action if the gas system didn't work and couldn't have the barrel tapped for a gas port.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:52
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xthetenth posted:There's a nasty irony there that the Japanese focus on using submarines to prepare for the decisive battle sunk fewer enemy warships than the US strangling the main Japanese lines of communication, setting up perimeters around their operations and taking what came. However it didn't bear fruit till later in the war. There's a lot of converting damaged ships sailing home for repairs into kills, for instance. Just another way the difference between a decisive battle and decisive campaign shows up in WWII. The fact that it took so long for the submarine warfare campaign to pay off had a lot to do with the awful torpedoes they were stuck with though. Fix those and it would have proven decisive far faster.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:56
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Now I'm kind of wondering what Russia would be like in an alternate universe where humans can't get drunk. Much like the good ol' USA, it'd be part of a blasted hellscape roamed by mutant kiwis and argentines.
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Sep 5, 2019 18:58
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bewbies posted:I bet if you told an IJN admiral this was going to happen back in 1940 he would have challenged you to a sword duel right then and there. Did any duels happen in Japan in the 20th century?
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Sep 5, 2019 19:22
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 The Wart Hog mafia is at it again
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Sep 5, 2019 19:24
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zoux posted:
Ah yes, the timeless debate of depleted uranium, high explosives and small arms fire vs the anti-christ still unanswered by scholars worldwide.
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Sep 5, 2019 19:28
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PittTheElder posted:The fact that it took so long for the submarine warfare campaign to pay off had a lot to do with the awful torpedoes they were stuck with though. Fix those and it would have proven decisive far faster. The biggest warship engagements that the Mk 14 screwed up were in 1943. That's not early enough to be compatible with attrition before the main event in a decisive battle model.
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Sep 5, 2019 19:29
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Ice Fist posted:Ah yes, the timeless debate of depleted uranium, high explosives and small arms fire vs the anti-christ still unanswered by scholars worldwide. You need air superiority, CAS and a plane that can do both when supporting your JSOC missions against seven headed beasts with leopard faces, this is just basic Clausewitz
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Sep 5, 2019 19:34
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zoux posted:
I'm still bummed that Stuart Slade and his friends were such chuds because "The US uses superior firepower to take out Satan's armies and then marches to the gates of heaven and besieges god" was really interesting and made me on some visceral level appreciate Clancy style airport fiction.
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Sep 5, 2019 19:36
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ChubbyChecker posted:Did any duels happen in Japan in the 20th century?  Duels were made illegal in 1889 and are punishable by death (even today), for what it's worth. Maybe the Japanese government actually enforced that law, unlike practically every government before them.
Siivola fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 19:49
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xthetenth posted:The biggest warship engagements that the Mk 14 screwed up were in 1943. That's not early enough to be compatible with attrition before the main event in a decisive battle model. Oh yeah I'm not saying that the subs could or should have been employed for some sort of decisive battle action, it's just kind of shocking when you see just how effective the US submarine campaign was, and then realize that they were fighting with one arm tied behind their back for much of the war.
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Sep 5, 2019 20:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm still bummed that Stuart Slade and his friends were such chuds because "The US uses superior firepower to take out Satan's armies and then marches to the gates of heaven and besieges god" was really interesting and made me on some visceral level appreciate Clancy style airport fiction. I grew up as a non-denominational evangelical Christian, and one of the ideas of this particular flavor of Protestantism is that demons and angels are real, they look like common depictions of them, and they are all around us, unseen, protecting us and tempting us, and they are full on at war. The point is to add a militaristic aspect to one's faith, as though one is actually fighting demons when they make moral choices, so that's the mindset I was in when I was 8-13ish. This dude Frank Peretti wrote these books (Piercing the Darkness and this Present Darkness) where he described such a world, with major angels and demons doing full on battle unseen in our bedrooms as we struggle against jacking off, and it was just the most badass thing I'd ever read. It's given me a lifelong interest in wars against, between or otherwise involving the Host of heaven and hordes of the Pit, as well as a silly interest in things like angel hierarchies and ranks and purposes of demons. As an agnostic now, I still enjoy the topics and I can recommend God's Demon by Wayne Barlowe (also his art of hell is like nothing you've seen) and Son of the Morning by Mark Alder (h/t Phanatic) as two modern non-Christian novels that get into this world. Son of the Morning is particularly interesting as it asks "what if the 14th c. European view of the Divine Right of kings was literally true, that God sets people in their station and nobles are literally the betters of peasants, that God only lends aid to kings and that can change depending on piety. The major issue at the beginning of the book as England and France approach the 100 Years war is is that Edward III cannot summon the angels of England to aid him against the angels of France because, unbeknownst to him, Edward II yet lives in secret exile, making Edward III technically and unwittingly an usurper of the throne and therefore an illegitimate ruler. It's pretty funny too. Are the Slade books worth reading, I mean I can get into a Clancy book even knowing that he's full of poo poo and a facist
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Sep 5, 2019 20:05
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Siivola posted:Do you have any idea how difficult it is to google for any kind of historical info on Japanese swordsmen that aren't Miyamoto Musashi? Probably about as difficult as googling Imperial Japanese warships without bringing up anime girls. Speaking of which, I have stumbled upon a hilarious game by going to my various coworkers and testing the google algorithm to figure out which of my coworkers are secretly into anime or not. Basically going to their computer and googling "akagi" or similar and seeing what comes up.
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Sep 5, 2019 20:06
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I'd have a hard time believing that as long as they could represent what they were doing as patriotic, considering there are coup attempts that got house arrest for 20 days.PittTheElder posted:Oh yeah I'm not saying that the subs could or should have been employed for some sort of decisive battle action, it's just kind of shocking when you see just how effective the US submarine campaign was, and then realize that they were fighting with one arm tied behind their back for much of the war. In fairness, the biggest obstacle for the USN sinking more ships was lack of ships to sink, so ships they sunk would've zoux posted:Are the Slade books worth reading, I mean I can get into a Clancy book even knowing that he's full of poo poo and a facist His main ones are a series of lovingly written nuclear holocausts interspersed with political figures he doesn't like dying in contrived ways. They're unpleasant at best, though the actual nuclear war stuff is knowledgeable enough that in the first book it's a redeeming unpleasantness of the hell of a WWII gone right for Germany leaving the US to decide to launch a nuclear campaign to end Germany as a threat. The salvation war ones are kind of interesting. It's the modern world slapping the poo poo out of hell, and partially out of heaven before he stopped writing. Plus he's pretending he's not an utterly odious slime, so the politics are less galling. It's got some interesting stuff in the margins of worldviews realigning, and the main show is pretty wild. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 20:07
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zoux posted:Are the Slade books worth reading, I mean I can get into a Clancy book even knowing that he's full of poo poo and a facist The concept behind The Salvation War is far better than the execution.
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Sep 5, 2019 20:13
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chitoryu12 posted:The concept behind The Salvation War is far better than the execution. This is also very true.
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Sep 5, 2019 20:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:Probably about as difficult as googling Imperial Japanese warships without bringing up anime girls. i tested it out and "milhist thread reader" won out over "anime liker" so it's not a bulletproof test
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Sep 5, 2019 20:18
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chitoryu12 posted:The concept behind The Salvation War is far better than the execution. Which is
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Sep 5, 2019 20:21
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