Edgar Allen Ho posted:Wait how many football fields is that? How many hands in depth?
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Sep 11, 2019 16:59
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Depends on what fathom you use.
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Sep 11, 2019 17:25
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:The German equivalent would be some kind of privately owned military cemetery that also happened to be older than actual Nazi administration and also hosted a museum curated by Herman Goering's grand-nephew in a building formerly occupied by an insurance agency. 2019 Spain drops on the table: The Francisco Franco Foundation: It runs a museum, probably in a stolen palace, I don't remember. I don't think Germany can top that with a Stiftung Adolf Hitler, Spain wins  .
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Sep 11, 2019 18:23
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karoshi posted:2019 Spain drops on the table: how many german garrisons have you looked at, i got some awkward news for you
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Sep 11, 2019 23:36
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HEY GUNS posted:how many german garrisons have you looked at, i got some awkward news for you I mean at least Hitler isn't rocking this, built by enslaved Soviet POWs, though.
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Sep 12, 2019 08:54
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feedmegin posted:I mean at least Hitler isn't rocking this, built by enslaved Soviet POWs, though. Not Soviet POWs, they were Spanish Republicans, unless there's a part of that link I missed. Were they enslaved? It looks from the link like it was a voluntary scheme to get out of prison faster, and that the workers in question were paid normal labourer's wages. It seems like a long-term bad idea to have enemy POWs work on big prestigious monuments. Sure, in the short term you get a big prestigious monument, but in the long term you get, "Man, say what you like about *enemy group*, but they sure could build a prestigious monument, couldn't they?", which is probably not what you were going for. Gort fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 09:41
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There is one atrocity for which Nazi German soldiers were responsible for which I will accept the excuse “We didn’t know any better. We were just following orders.” That atrocity is the extinction of the ivory‐billed woodpecker, the proximate cause of which was the logging of the Singer Tract, the last forest of its kind and the last suitable habitat for the birds. They were put up to it by the Chicago Mill and Lumber Company as prisoners of war.
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Sep 12, 2019 10:14
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HEY GUNS posted:how many german garrisons have you looked at, i got some awkward news for you Surely the 2019 Bundeswehr is clean??
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Sep 12, 2019 10:32
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karoshi posted:Surely the 2019 Bundeswehr is clean?? "According to Germany's Military Counterintelligence Service, about 200 Bundeswehr soldiers have been classified as right-wing extremists since 2008."
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Sep 12, 2019 10:36
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FrangibleCover posted:"According to Germany's Military Counterintelligence Service, about 200 Bundeswehr soldiers have been classified as right-wing extremists since 2008." When I hear things like this I'm always torn between, "It's bad that there are Nazis in this organisation" and "At least they're looking for the Nazis in their organisation"
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Sep 12, 2019 10:48
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karoshi posted:Surely the 2019 Bundeswehr is clean??
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Sep 12, 2019 10:53
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Gort posted:When I hear things like this I'm always torn between, "It's bad that there are Nazis in this organisation" and "At least they're looking for the Nazis in their organisation" “They’re only making a token effort, and the truth of the corruption is so much worse.”
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Sep 12, 2019 10:54
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Oh, for sure, and then there are the militaries who don't even make the token effort
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Sep 12, 2019 11:03
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Maybe six months back I saw (on two desperate days, so I’m pretty sure I wasn’t mistaken or hallucinating” a US Marine walking around near the DC barracks in uniform with an WW2 German armband/jacket cuff tattoo. You know the strip of fabric that would say GroßDeutschland or SS Wiking or whatever. I couldn’t get close enough to see what it said and I was too shocked to snap a pic, but it was pretty unmistakable. I’m hoping he was just an idiot who got 2nd Marines or whatever put on his arm in that style because he saw in a pic or something but yeah Then there’s that time soldiers in Afghanistan posed for pictures with an SS flag next to an American flag and tried to say later thr SS stood for “scout sniper.”
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Sep 12, 2019 11:49
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Cyrano4747 posted:Maybe six months back I saw (on two desperate days, so I’m pretty sure I wasn’t mistaken or hallucinating” a US Marine walking around near the DC barracks in uniform with an WW2 German armband/jacket cuff tattoo. You know the strip of fabric that would say GroßDeutschland or SS Wiking or whatever. I couldn’t get close enough to see what it said and I was too shocked to snap a pic, but it was pretty unmistakable. I’m hoping he was just an idiot who got 2nd Marines or whatever put on his arm in that style because he saw in a pic or something but yeah They are called MPs and, while similar to Nazis, it has yet to be confirmed if they are actually related.
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Sep 12, 2019 12:33
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Cyrano4747 posted:Then there’s that time soldiers in Afghanistan posed for pictures with an SS flag next to an American flag and tried to say later thr SS stood for “scout sniper.” Never thought I would see a real world example of this wow.
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Sep 12, 2019 12:39
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Let's see what Carmen Franco had to say about things...Wikipedia posted:Franco chaired the Francisco Franco National Foundation, which is under criticism for its revisionist opinions e.g. by calling the Spanish coup of July 1936 an "armed referendum". Yikes feedmegin posted:I mean at least Hitler isn't rocking this, built by enslaved Soviet POWs, though. Wikipedia posted:In 2018, after new Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez promised that Franco's remains would be removed from the Valley of the Fallen, the Foundation collected a petition with 24,000 signatures to oppose the proposal, with its leader, General Juan Chicharro Ortega, calling the site a "monument to reconciliation". Double yikes.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:01
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FrangibleCover posted:https://www.dw.com/en/german-soldier-charged-with-plotting-to-kill-politicians-while-posing-as-refugee/a-41766093 I would be shocked if we dont have ten times that amount in US service.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:09
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SeanBeansShako posted:Never thought I would see a real world example of this wow. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-16973868 Maybe they were just Kiss fans?
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Sep 12, 2019 14:15
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The SS thing for marine scout snipers unfortunately goes back a while. I believe it was late 90s/early 00s that the community got called out for having SS tattoos. I believe they were just idiots who figured SS=scout sniper without being actual nazis, not that makes it any less wrong and it still opens up the possibility radicalization/normalization. Two years ago there were two staff sergeants kicked out for participating in alt right rallies and a private who was kicked out for belonging to a neo Nazi militia. He, a water purification specialist with 0 years experience in the military, offered to train the group in military tactics.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:29
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Sep 12, 2019 14:35
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FastestGunAlive posted:He, a water purification specialist with 0 years experience in the military, offered to train the group in military tactics. To be fair, water purification seems like it'd be a hugely important part of any military campaign  dril "don't gotta hand it to them" tweet etc
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Sep 12, 2019 14:40
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FastestGunAlive posted:The SS thing for marine scout snipers unfortunately goes back a while. I believe it was late 90s/early 00s that the community got called out for having SS tattoos. I believe they were just idiots who figured SS=scout sniper without being actual nazis, not that makes it any less wrong and it still opens up the possibility radicalization/normalization. Yeah that came up with that pic too but I’m going to call bullshit. There is no one who is A) interested enough in the military to know what a scout sniper is and B) born in the 70s-80s (ie enlistment age in the 90s-00s) who doesn’t know at least the broad strokes of what the SS were and what that the dual sig runes was their logo. Now what I WILL believe is that some idiots thought that the SS were hard core motherfuckers who were trying to hold back human waves of Soviet conscripts like a scene out of Aliens and jumped on it as part of some “warrior culture” idiocy. You know, the same crap that leads to tattoos of spartan helmets. But no, when confronted with the fact that they adopted the icons of a genocidal state that their own loving military forefathers fought and bled to topple they grasp for some lame “uh we didn’t know what SS meant” fig leaf. You see this poo poo far too often with the idiotic end of gun companies marketing to military/ex-military/walter Mitty military fetishists. Sure, Smith enterprises, that logo is just a skull and cross bones and I’m the sensitive snowflake. SURE.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:43
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Pellisworth posted:To be fair, water purification seems like it'd be a hugely important part of any military campaign This is an important plot point in the Pauly Shore classic In the Army Now.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:45
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You expressed it better Cyrano but yes that’s what I think their mindset was
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Sep 12, 2019 14:50
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Gort posted:Not Soviet POWs, they were Spanish Republicans, unless there's a part of that link I missed. Were they enslaved? I Now if you're interested in monuments built by slaves, have I got the national capitol for you
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Sep 12, 2019 14:55
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SeanBeansShako posted:Never thought I would see a real world example of this wow. Yeah, I never was expecting to see a dude with two sig runes drawn on the bill of his cap, but I have. I hope it was dumb scout sniper poo poo. I don't actually have that level of optimism.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:55
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fwiw our family is literally french jews but my dad's dad was in the Wehrmacht, and my cousin was telling me how badass it was that my grandpa mowed down enemy hordes (in Italy mostly so uh, ok United States Army cousin) when he was in and out of Iraq deployments and I was about 10. He's still pretty loving fash adjacent these days too.
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Sep 12, 2019 14:57
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xthetenth posted:Yeah, I never was expecting to see a dude with two sig runes drawn on the bill of his cap, but I have. I hope it was dumb scout sniper poo poo. I don't actually have that level of optimism. They seriously need to educate about this stuff. gently caress you could make it moto as gently caress. Spend time taking about the warrior heritage of the Army/USMC/etc or something, explain what these symbols are, and then jerk off in a group to tales of the US Military dunking on Nazis. Show some news reels of soldiers liberating camps. Like, just an hour of “SS = bad, now let’s watch old gun camera footage and cheer at Nazis eating poo poo.” This won’t solve the idiots with klan tattoos but at lest it won’t be acceptable to try to pass off literal Nazi poo poo as warrior culture crap.
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Sep 12, 2019 15:04
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xthetenth posted:Yeah, I never was expecting to see a dude with two sig runes drawn on the bill of his cap, but I have. I hope it was dumb scout sniper poo poo. I don't actually have that level of optimism. in this political clime I’m not giving that guy the benefit of the doubt. It’s well known now why that is unacceptable as a symbol for them to use. The tattoo thing was twenty years ago and it’s specifically taught as wrong now- I’ve never seen anyone use it these days. No doubt this dude is a peer of the recent neo nazis I referred to.
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Sep 12, 2019 15:10
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Would you guys be in favor of a modern Germany-style ban on Nazi iconography or does that go too far (the fact that SCOTUS would overturn it aside).
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Sep 12, 2019 15:12
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zoux posted:Would you guys be in favor of a modern Germany-style ban on Nazi iconography or does that go too far (the fact that SCOTUS would overturn it aside). In general? No. It’s a useful tool for spotting idiots, an actual rear end in a top hat will use a different logo with the same meaning (see: repurposed Nordic stuff), and there are legit uses for it in art etc. No one wants to play German wolfenstein without the swastikas. Organizationally? gently caress yeah. If the army or some business wants to fire people for having that poo poo displayed good on them.
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Sep 12, 2019 15:18
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OK, imagine if gay black hitler was in charge for a second how would have the uk/us/etc invasion of france have gone without the eastern front? like if hitler had thought "hey i've got a 1000 year reich why start a two front war?" im curious because from what i've read about operation overlord it was pretty touch and go and seems great fodder for a tabletop game
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Sep 12, 2019 15:27
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The current court would overturn it but tbh I think that even US-style freedom of expression could justify banning nazi iconography. It's not "free speech" to say "I literally am going to come to your house tonight and kill you, Edgar Allen Ho, you jewish human being!" I could call the cops for that and because I'm white they'd probably be arrested. A swastika armband says, quietly but clearly, "I want to kill you and your whole family, Edgar Allen Ho!" And hate crimes are already a thing. I'd say that openly displaying nazi iconography, klan iconography, rebel flags, etc is a direct threat to me and to everyone who is queer or jewish. It's a direct threat to every minority who has to see it. It's a threat, it's assault, and it's a hate crime. It's equally as not protected as "yelling fire in a crowded theatre."
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Sep 12, 2019 15:29
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah that came up with that pic too but I’m going to call bullshit. There is no one who is A) interested enough in the military to know what a scout sniper is and B) born in the 70s-80s (ie enlistment age in the 90s-00s) who doesn’t know at least the broad strokes of what the SS were and what that the dual sig runes was their logo I think you are overestimating the general knowledge/education level of our American heroes. The unofficial story that I heard about that SS pic is that one guy had the flag in his possession for some reason, and told everyone else it was "scout sniper" and got them all to pose with it. My strong suspicion is that most of those guys had no clue it was a nazi thing, with the obvious exception of the guy who brought the flag in the first place. I find that as a general rule, if a question is posed like "is this soldier/sailor/whatever too dumb to realize X" chances are pretty good the answer is yes. The good news is that picture and its associated release and response happened due to other marines making formal complaints about it.
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Sep 12, 2019 15:30
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Cyrano4747 posted:This won’t solve the idiots with klan tattoos but at lest it won’t be acceptable to try to pass off literal Nazi poo poo as warrior culture crap. big dong wanter posted:OK, imagine if gay black hitler was in charge for a second Overlord being touch-and-go makes for a good story but honestly it was pretty much a foregone conclusion just due to the weights of forces assembled. If Hitler releases the Panzers they do exactly what they did at Sicily and Salerno and Anzio: Run at the beaches and then get swept up by naval gunfire and air interdiction. If Omaha fails then following elements of 1st and 29th Infantry Divisions get put onto Utah, which was wildly successful. It's not that the guys on the ground weren't brave or that their efforts were meaningless but too many new things would have to go wrong for the whole invasion to be kicked back into the sea. And then we'd have been back a year later and it would not have been allowed to go wrong that time.
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Sep 12, 2019 15:42
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I'd consider it fairly likely the Soviets would gank Nazi Germany hard the moment that landings started. Could Hitler realistically draw that many more troops off the eastern front when he is facing the prospect of the intact numbers of the Soviet Union that were not destroyed during Barbarossa this time? Even without the active invasion its a consideration they would have to make.
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Sep 12, 2019 15:53
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The current court would overturn it but tbh I think that even US-style freedom of expression could justify banning nazi iconography. Ken White/Popehat had a pretty interesting article recently about case law and the adjudication of free speech cases in the US that corrected a lot of misapprehensions I had about what is and isn't protected speech. It seems like you'd have to have a pretty significant change in judicial philosophy before a high court agreed to ban specific iconography. We're kind of free speech fetishists in the US, are/were there any countries even close to where we are on it? What did other enlightenment era revolutionaries think about unabrogated freedom of speech? I know that the Declaration of the RIghts of Man contained a free speech clause, but I don't think that was ever tested in court, and certainly not regularly for hundreds of years. Speaking of the French Revolution  How in the world do you do a lifelike recreation of a major revolutionary's head and not pick Georges Danton. Small pox rear end Robespierre smh zoux fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 16:02
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:fwiw our family is literally french jews but my dad's dad was in the Wehrmacht, and my cousin was telling me how badass it was that my grandpa mowed down enemy hordes (in Italy mostly so uh, ok United States Army cousin) when he was in and out of Iraq deployments and I was about 10. He's still pretty loving fash adjacent these days too. Generally you can assume that anyone who's super hooah about machine gunning people and unironically getting American flags or Spartan helmets tattooed on them is a step away from going full fash. They're just looking for the right push.
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Sep 12, 2019 16:50
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So that was the before pic, where is the after?
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Sep 12, 2019 16:50
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