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Im mainly asking for an rpg where the ussry isnt involved for war gaming, how do you see that playing out?
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Sep 12, 2019 16:54
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SeanBeansShako posted:So that was the before pic, where is the after? 
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Sep 12, 2019 16:57
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zoux posted:Would you guys be in favor of a modern Germany-style ban on Nazi iconography or does that go too far (the fact that SCOTUS would overturn it aside). A state or Federal ban on that wouldn't get past even a liberal Supreme Court, but the military could ban the poo poo out of it if they wanted
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Sep 12, 2019 16:59
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It's really hard to stamp out ideas, as the monarchists in mainland Europe who tried for a very long time to prevent anybody from talking about constitutionalism will tell you. You have to be very diligent to hunt down secret groups even after outlawing it in the open. Although it'd sure be nice if current governments were even half as diligent in taking down people making death threats as Metternich was in taking down constitutionalist groups. Gort posted:Not Soviet POWs, they were Spanish Republicans, unless there's a part of that link I missed. Were they enslaved? It looks from the link like it was a voluntary scheme to get out of prison faster, and that the workers in question were paid normal labourer's wages. Are you telling me that Spanish fascist prison slavery was better than modern American prison slavery?
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Sep 12, 2019 16:59
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uh, his jaw looks a bit too attached. i want realism. e: I missed it but fuckin lol at the poster up there apologizing for loving fascist monuments. e2: gort Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 17:10
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It was shattered not blown off.
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Sep 12, 2019 17:13
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Reading about the death of Robespierre and these revolutionaries were pretty extra " In the evening, Robespierre delivered the same speech at the Jacobin Club, where it was very well received. He spoke of drinking hemlock, and David cried out: ‘I will drink it with you.’ " These guys would all be Phil Greaves on twitter
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Sep 12, 2019 17:22
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That crazy rear end over the top stuff more or less kept Napoleon from being fired and arrested attempting that coup with his brother.
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Sep 12, 2019 17:30
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Polyakov posted:I'd consider it fairly likely the Soviets would gank Nazi Germany hard the moment that landings started. Could Hitler realistically draw that many more troops off the eastern front when he is facing the prospect of the intact numbers of the Soviet Union that were not destroyed during Barbarossa this time? Even without the active invasion its a consideration they would have to make. That would also be a Soviet Army post the rearmament and rebuilding that was just starting during Barbarossa as well as intact defensive lines (Either the original line or in Poland depending on what alt-history you're going with). So T-34Ms or maybe even T-44s. Likely a good number of SVT-40s and lots of intel on what everyone else is up to.
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Sep 12, 2019 17:32
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SlothfulCobra posted:Are you telling me that Spanish fascist prison slavery was better than modern American prison slavery?   
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Sep 12, 2019 17:44
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Taerkar posted:That would also be a Soviet Army post the rearmament and rebuilding that was just starting during Barbarossa as well as intact defensive lines (Either the original line or in Poland depending on what alt-history you're going with). So T-34Ms or maybe even T-44s. Likely a good number of SVT-40s and lots of intel on what everyone else is up to. Russia wouldn't get any support from the Allies, and the divide between East and West would likely be even greater. A short list of changes include: -North Africa is conquered by the Germans, or at the very least many more battles take place on the blistering sands. -While the Tiger tank would likely be developed, built, and sent to the desert, the Panther tank never materializes. -Certain Soviet technological developments fail to occur: the KV-1s are built in greater numbers, but the IS series likely wouldn't materialize. Similarly, planes like the La-5, may also not show up. -Populations in the baltics and ukraine endure more time under Soviet oppression; how will this affect them? -More effort placed on anti-shipping from the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, as the lack of arctic convoys frees up more ships for duties elsewhere. -The Battle of Britain changes entirely, with more Luftwaffe aircraft and personnel based in northern France, similarly with North Africa. -Japan's border with Russia becomes a wild card. Are more units sent to it? Less? Or do things stay the way they were in "our timeline"? -Potentially no G43/K43 series of guns, no STG44, not until M1 Garands and Thompsons arrive in Germany via capture.
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Sep 12, 2019 17:55
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Brucie Bonus: The lack of aggression on the German/Soviet border allows countries like Hungary and Romania to continue restructuring their forces. Will the added training times improve their odds at dealing with the Soviets when the time comes?  Italy would likely perform better in North Africa, if only because they would have more men and materiel to bring down there.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:01
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There'd be a fair higher chance of the West making a separate peace with Hitler I'd think.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:10
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I'm reading a book about Russian Fashies (cancerous outgrowths of the Whites in the 1930s, not the bunch of ethnonationalist fuckos running it these days) and what's got me scratching the 'ol noodle is wether a Japanese attack at the hight of the purges could have successfully taken Vladivostok and maybe pushed to, like Lake Baikal? No Black Hitler stuff here, although the RFP would have to have been non-clown shoe for it to have worked. E: also, everyone should watch White Sun of the Desert not for any particular political reason (or even it being particularly related to the above, it's just a really fun movie?)
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Sep 12, 2019 18:13
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Schadenboner posted:I'm reading a book about Russian Fashies (cancerous outgrowths of the Whites in the 1930s, not the bunch of ethnonationalist fuckos running it these days) and what's got me scratching the 'ol noodle is wether a Japanese attack at the hight of the purges could have successfully taken Vladivostok and maybe pushed to, like Lake Baikal? Osterns are pretty neat in general. They tend to be very much influenced by American Westerns but with themes changed to fit the sensibilities of Soviet Cinema.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:21
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Wasn't the Russian far east forces protected from the worst of the purges?
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Sep 12, 2019 18:28
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Fangz posted:Wasn't the Russian far east forces protected from the worst of the purges? Balitsky (NKVD head), Blyukher (Marshal, head of Far Eastern Military District), and Lapin (head of the Air Forces for the Far Eastern Military District) were all killed in the purges.
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Sep 12, 2019 18:53
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Aside from the fact that that kind of war would be much closer to what the Soviets were prepared for than what the Japanese were prepared for, just by looking at the kind of equipment they each concentrated on etc the fact that the Japanese couldn't hang on during the Civil War, when the Soviets were in much worse shape, kinda seems relevant too. Or was Japanese withdrawal from Vladivostok something the West or someone pressured them to, rather than the Soviet army?
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Sep 12, 2019 19:03
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Wait I thought the Japanese and Soviets were involved in an ongoing low-intensity conflict for most of the 30's These ones
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Sep 12, 2019 19:07
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The Japanese got badly owned at Lake Kazan in 38 and decided to maybe better go somewhere else e: holy poo poo I did not realize that Khalkin Gol and Lake Khazan were seperate events. Welp
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Sep 12, 2019 19:09
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The current court would overturn it but tbh I think that even US-style freedom of expression could justify banning nazi iconography. That would very probably be considered a true threat. It's not just a vague statement, it's one that "on its face and in the circumstances in which it is made is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to the person threatened, as to convey a gravity of purpose and imminent prospect of execution." Note those requirements: unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific. quote:A swastika armband says, quietly but clearly, "I want to kill you and your whole family, Edgar Allen Ho!" That would not. It's not unequivocal. It's not unconditional. It's definitely not immediate and it's certainly not anywhere near as specific as your first example. quote:I'd say that openly displaying nazi iconography, klan iconography, rebel flags, etc is a direct threat to me and to everyone who is queer or jewish. You could say that. No court operating under USA jurisprudence would. quote:It's a direct threat to every minority who has to see it. It's a threat, it's assault, and it's a hate crime. It's equally as not protected as "yelling fire in a crowded theatre." The whole "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" trope was created by a Supreme Court judge who wanted to imprison people for the terrible crime of...opposing the draft. When you find yourself invoking it, it's a good sign you should reconsider your premises in regards to free speech.
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Sep 12, 2019 19:21
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The Japanese occupation of the far east and Vladivostok during the civil war turned into a domestic political disaster for the Japanese government. It was nearly bankrupting the government even when the army was just sitting around and nobody was entirely sure what the objective was. Also motivating the withdrawal I think was the fact that WWI had exposed the inadequacy of Japanese military preparedness, and that sense of insecurity would motivate Japanese leaders to try and deescalate conflict with their neighbors. This is around the same time Japan signs onto the Washington Naval treaty.
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Sep 12, 2019 19:21
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https://twitter.com/defense_news/status/1172212884790751233 Thanks guys
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Sep 12, 2019 19:24
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Schadenboner posted:I'm reading a book about Russian Fashies (cancerous outgrowths of the Whites in the 1930s, not the bunch of ethnonationalist fuckos running it these days) and what's got me scratching the 'ol noodle is wether a Japanese attack at the hight of the purges could have successfully taken Vladivostok and maybe pushed to, like Lake Baikal? Lake Baikal is a Barbarossa size distance away from the Soviet-Japanese border, the terrain is a thousand times worse, the Japanese don't have nearly the motor vehicles as the Germans, it's a no-go. They could take Vladivostok and sit on it for a while, but the Soviets had a better rail system and wouldn't be nearly as constrained as the Russians were in 1905. It would go nowhere and the other military factions of Japan would want to shift away for a Chinese invasion instead of a forever war in some empty forests. big dong wanter posted:Im mainly asking for an rpg where the ussry isnt involved for war gaming, how do you see that playing out? The Allies launch a cross-channel invasion in 1944 in a world where there's like 5 million extra German soldiers just sitting around? It obviously doesn't work, but it would be a very stupid plan.
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Sep 12, 2019 19:26
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Italy would likely perform better in North Africa, if only because they would have more men and materiel to bring down there. On the other hand, they might do worse. Because they've got more men and material there.
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Sep 12, 2019 19:28
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Gort posted:Not Soviet POWs, they were Spanish Republicans, unless there's a part of that link I missed. Were they enslaved? It looks from the link like it was a voluntary scheme to get out of prison faster, and that the workers in question were paid normal labourer's wages. The Soviet bit was an analogy, because Hitler. And loving lol ok Franco. Being imprisoned for your politics and being told you can get out quicker but only if you work hard labour for a pittance to honour the guy who's keeping you there is close enough I think, and that's if you're taking the regime's word for it. Also, that last bit? Doesn't happen. No fash are thinking that, trust me. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 20:05
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Squalid posted:The Japanese occupation of the far east and Vladivostok during the civil war turned into a domestic political disaster for the Japanese government. It was nearly bankrupting the government even when the army was just sitting around and nobody was entirely sure what the objective was. Also motivating the withdrawal I think was the fact that WWI had exposed the inadequacy of Japanese military preparedness, and that sense of insecurity would motivate Japanese leaders to try and deescalate conflict with their neighbors. This is around the same time Japan signs onto the Washington Naval treaty. It's my understanding it was mostly for this reason they never seriously considered an invasion of the USSR too. They couldn't properly equip soldiers for Siberian winter and unlike their campaigns in SEA and China, you can get past the heat but you can't just tell people to do the same in conditions where people quickly die from being outside, unprotected for a long time. I was reminded of how horrific the Battle of Chosin Reservoir was recently when I read the account of the assault on Funchilin Pass. The Marines were expecting Chinese soldiers to be there but it was seemingly deserted, the PVA soldiers had frozen to death in their foxholes waiting for the UN breakout to reach them. While the generals of the Kwantung Army were crazy enough to do it, I doubt they would have considered a campaign with a strengthening China on their border. They would have given it even more pause with the stalled out war in China that they promised would be done quickly when China came to the peace table. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 20:30
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Phanatic posted:That would very probably be considered a true threat. It's not just a vague statement, it's one that "on its face and in the circumstances in which it is made is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to the person threatened, as to convey a gravity of purpose and imminent prospect of execution." I used a pop culture statement in thinking that nazis are actually always bad and an internet lawyer line by line refuted me. 
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Sep 12, 2019 20:38
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I used a pop culture statement in thinking that nazis are actually always bad and an internet lawyer line by line refuted me. I see you aren't familiar with Phanatic's shtick of defending the freeze peach of fascists and alt-right shitheads.
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Sep 12, 2019 20:46
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I see you aren't familiar with Phanatic's shtick of defending the freeze peach of fascists and alt-right shitheads. I mean, regardless of his motivations, he's right on first amendment law. The first amendment says the government can't stop you from saying unpopular or even hateful and evil things. It can stop you from trying to carry that stuff out, but you have the right to think and say it.
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Sep 12, 2019 21:10
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Phanatic posted:The whole "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" trope was created by a Supreme Court judge who wanted to imprison people for the terrible crime of...opposing the draft. When you find yourself invoking it, it's a good sign you should reconsider your premises in regards to free speech. The thing that annoys me the most out of "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" is that...that version of the quote misses a key word. 249 U.S. 47, 52 posted:The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. Of course the government can prohibit false statements likely to cause a panic; that doesn't seem controversial at all. Edgar Allen Ho posted:I used a pop culture statement in thinking that nazis are actually always bad and an internet lawyer line by line refuted me. He is right on the current state of American 1st amendment jurisprudence, though. You typically need imminent threats of illegal activity to get over the barrier, and just dressing like a Nazi by itself doesn't cut it (xref Lemmy's famous collection of Nazi memorabilia, aka "If we had a good uniform, I'd collect ours as well, but what does the British Army have? Khaki. Makes them look like like a loving swamp frog."). ulmont fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Sep 12, 2019 |
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Sep 12, 2019 21:22
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I see you aren't familiar with Phanatic's shtick of defending the freeze peach of fascists and alt-right shitheads. I also defend murderers and kidnappers, what with my support of the 4th and 5th and 8th amendments. Don’t forget to throw that into your list of calumny.
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Sep 12, 2019 21:23
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FastestGunAlive posted:Two years ago there were two staff sergeants kicked out for participating in alt right rallies and a private who was kicked out for belonging to a neo Nazi militia. He, a water purification specialist with 0 years experience in the military, offered to train the group in military tactics.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:17
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Schadenboner posted:I'm reading a book about Russian Fashies (cancerous outgrowths of the Whites in the 1930s...
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Sep 12, 2019 22:21
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once it awakens it's just going to buy a lifted f-150 at 22% apr
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Sep 12, 2019 22:22
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Crystal I've never met anyone like you before, will you make me the happiest automated doomsday device in the world
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Sep 12, 2019 22:25
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zoux posted:We're kind of free speech fetishists in the US, are/were there any countries even close to where we are on it?
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Sep 12, 2019 22:25
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HEY GUNS posted:uk, but i think there the reasoning is based on "privacy" rather than "expression." I am reminded of this case Remember when there was nothing wrong with gleefully burning an effigy of Grenfell Tower in the back garden but sharing the video was a crime?
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Sep 12, 2019 22:29
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Russia wouldn't get any support from the Allies, and the divide between East and West would likely be even greater. - North Africa was logistics limited for the Axis, not manpower limited. They can put 5 million more men in Tripoli if they like but they're going to starve to death. They can maybe send their best equipped units but their best equipped units tend to be SS and the SS tend to be horrible so it'll more or less balance out. - The Battle of Britain involved the majority of the striking power of the Luftwaffe, a couple of extra Geschwaders from the Polish border aren't going to make much difference. The Luftwaffe not being withdrawn to refit for Barbarossa makes some difference but the danger period for Britain had passed and the likely result is further city bombing until the days close in too much to do a lot of flying.
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Sep 12, 2019 22:30
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Platystemon posted:Remember when there was nothing wrong with gleefully burning an effigy of Grenfell Tower in the back garden...
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Sep 12, 2019 22:33
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