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Gnoman posted:That particular series is interesting in a few ways -for one thing, it is just about the only series he's done that didn't have WWII go much worse than the historical one-, but it shares the common flaw in Turtledove that the unexplored end state is probably much more interesting than the actual story. Yeah but when Turtledove attempts to explore the end state, it goes all big-lipped alligator, like in Worldwar.
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Sep 22, 2019 00:37
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Arquinsiel posted:The Jawa ones being bolt action rifles just seem particularly odd, because they still have the whole bolt there. The Sterling is a little bit more "black metal tube" than the SMLE is, so it's not as obvious how it works. When you actually see it on film it's not an issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDonCjhFdC0
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Sep 22, 2019 01:24
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historical recreationists are at it again, but what is it this time? let me give you an example https://twitter.com/Ada_Palmer/status/1173359613791604739
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Sep 22, 2019 01:26
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Here is a question, if you got paid for it would you totally donate your urine to make historically correct materiel's? or is this too weird to debate even for us.
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Sep 22, 2019 01:30
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SeanBeansShako posted:Here is a question, if you got paid for it would you totally donate your urine to make historically correct materiel's? It’s better than every medical study healthy people sign up for, and healthy people do sign up. Or, more poignantly, plenty of Americans are told to piss in a cup to keep their jobs, and they do.
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Sep 22, 2019 01:32
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Gnoman posted:That particular series is interesting in a few ways -for one thing, it is just about the only series he's done that didn't have WWII go much worse than the historical one-, but it shares the common flaw in Turtledove that the unexplored end state is probably much more interesting than the actual story. That's kinda true for any alt-hist though unless they pull a Draka and tries to plot it out for centuries onwards resulting in weirder and weirder counterfactuals. Platystemon posted:Yeah but when Turtledove attempts to explore the end state, it goes all big-lipped alligator, like in Worldwar. I dunno, Worldwar's end state up until the FTL drive basically made sense. They build big spaceships and spent 20 years bringing them over to the Lizard homeworld in order to negotiate a proper and real peace treaty on even footing; because the Lizards have been mulling over simply eradicating Earth and sacrificing its colonists it has living on Earth for years and years, on the fence hovering their claws over the The Button; never willing to rule it out or to go through with it. Humans arriving basically pushed them into FOR REAL NOW GUYS deliberating it until the FTL ship arrived and put the final nail in the coffin of that idea forever. Basically Homeworld Bound was about tying up loose ends and resolving the "Will they or won't they?" that was left hanging at the end of Aftershocks where fighting at least one nuclear war both made the Lizard Highcommand paradoxically both more and less willing to go that far. Basically I'd say Worldwars end state was probably one of the better written ones of his alt history books; because it was from the start decidedly less about exploring a nerdy what-if, and more about actually writing an actual story following a three act structure having real themes and asking actual questions more at home with the speculative fiction genre. Thus the actual geopolitics of the Worldwar setting, merely existing as set dressing for the character arcs being developed I feel like makes it the stronger story compared to TL-191. Which followed more closely to the "And then a Thing Happened that was Kinda Like the History Thing but slightly different(tm)". The War That Came Early I notice also seemed to have... Like actual themes? I think a big one was around the idea of how you live your life to its fullest. The Soviet sergeant who gets arrested and sent to the gulag at the end because he picked a fight with the system but lived his fullest the entire time, who will probably exit the gulag in 10 years no problem with the strength of his no fucks given attitude, versus the Armenian officer who kept his mouth shut and his head down and sold out his Karelian friend and was miserable the entire time, who will probably stay miserable? A lot of contrasting character arcs throughout the series that were kinda absent in previous stories where Turtledove was like this weird bizarro George RR Martin who would randomly kill off beloved characters and yet churns out a book a month. True TWTCE probably has the more interesting end state of the two because of just how open ended it is and how different everything is while also sufficiently close enough to us that we can relate to it.
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Sep 22, 2019 02:59
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SeanBeansShako posted:Here is a question, if you got paid for it would you totally donate your urine to make historically correct materiel's? O totally. Now if you want to make me eat nothing but pottage for a month, that's gonna cost you.
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Sep 22, 2019 03:34
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How important were roads for pre-modern warfare? Lets say between 1400 and 1650. I got into an internet argument where someone is claiming it is anachronistic to refer to roads as 'important as lines of communication and supply' for a war we had in last weeks EU4 session. I wrote an AAR claiming certain forts needed to be taken because they prevented use of certain roads for an invading army. I understand armies of the period frequently lived off the land and foraged, but that doesn't mean roads were unimportant right?
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Sep 22, 2019 04:11
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The issue with the enemy holding a fort on a road isn’t always so much that it denies you the use of the road (though it can be, e.g. if it’s in a swamp). The bigger issue can be that if you bypass the fort, the garrison can come and flank you, and the road will help them do it.
Platystemon fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 04:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:How important were roads for pre-modern warfare? Lets say between 1400 and 1650. roads are important but if you are thinking of a single track that's graded and maintained that's the wrong mental image. Think of braids of multiple tracks, most of which are varying degrees of completely poo poo.
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Sep 22, 2019 04:36
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Did old castles and forts used to get destroyed after whoever owned them decided that they couldn't afford to keep them garrisoned to keep them from becoming liabilities, and if so, how?
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Sep 22, 2019 04:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:Did old castles and forts used to get destroyed after whoever owned them decided that they couldn't afford to keep them garrisoned to keep them from becoming liabilities, and if so, how? There is a specific term for it, “slighting”. Most of them were wooden and so could be burnt.
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Sep 22, 2019 04:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:Did old castles and forts used to get destroyed after whoever owned them decided that they couldn't afford to keep them garrisoned to keep them from becoming liabilities, and if so, how? Sometimes, but most defensive emplacements seem to have been more likely destroyed by attackers to deny them to re-occupying defenders. Conquerors have been manually tearing stone walls down for literally thousands of years.
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Sep 22, 2019 04:48
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chitoryu12 posted:When you actually see it on film it's not an issue. ETA: it also implies that the Jawa's ion gun is a bolt action, because, ye know, the bolt is still there. Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 05:14
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 Mein Gotte http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/acetylene-eng/acetyleneeng.htm
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Sep 22, 2019 05:30
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Arquinsiel posted:ETA: it also implies that the Jawa's ion gun is a bolt action, because, ye know, the bolt is still there. Of course the Jawa energy weapon is operated by bolt action, I mean how else would it work? This is Star Wars. Are you implying that Chewie's laser crossbow also makes no sense being shaped like a crossbow? Randarkman fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 05:39
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The Lee–Enfield rifle is based on found alien technology. Wake up, sheeple!
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Sep 22, 2019 05:46
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On the topic of that, one of the things I find to among the chief failings of the new Star Wars movies (well, it's kind of a distant point compared to how they generally fail as movies and on a plot and character level, but that's another topic entirely), both prequel and sequel, is how they didn't really go about constructing the movies' arsenals in the same way, in that they are mostly non-functional props constructed from the ground up to look like sci-fi weapons (or made to look like the weapons of the originals) rather than the originals where they took real guns and glued or bolted stuff on them to make them look sci-fi, which somehow makes them look more authentic somehow and the universe feel more real and "lived in". Now looking at it, most of the guns used appear to have been whatever could be gotten for cheap at the time the movies were made and where they were made, which means surplus and in the 70s and 80s that seems to have meant a bunch of WWII crap and other stuff that was being phased out of use at the time (such as the Sterling SMGs). Most of this happens to be British, because obviously the principal filming location was England, but there's a noticeable amount of German crap there as well, like MG-42s and Sturmgewehrs, probably because of the shoots in Tunisia I would imagine (Eastern bloc countries came into posession of alot of captured German materiel following WWII and though much of it remained in use among police and reserve forces into the 60s it was eventually all taken out of use, and much ended up being dumped off on various Third World countries, this is a big part of the reason why you occasionally spot German WW2 equipment in Middle Eastern conflict, it's not just from the war itself but because of this post-war aid of sorts given by Eastern Bloc countries). It would have been interesting to see how the prop guys would have gone about making the surplus crap of the 90s, 2000s and 2010s into sci-fi weapons, like FN FALs, G3s and, depending on where filming was conducted (if it wasn't almost entirely on a sound stage like episodes II and III) maybe a bunch of old Warsaw Pact stuff as well. But yeah, no such luck on that. A bit sad I think.
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Sep 22, 2019 05:58
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SeanBeansShako posted:Here is a question, if you got paid for it would you totally donate your urine to make historically correct materiel's? If they feed me the liquid bread diet, they can have the resulting urine.
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Sep 22, 2019 06:28
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HEY GUNS posted:historical recreationists are at it again, but what is it this time? let me give you an example Pisstory
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Sep 22, 2019 07:24
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FAUXTON posted:Pisstory 
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Sep 22, 2019 07:35
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Randarkman posted:It would have been interesting to see how the prop guys would have gone about making the surplus crap of the 90s, 2000s and 2010s into sci-fi weapons, like FN FALs, G3s and, depending on where filming was conducted (if it wasn't almost entirely on a sound stage like episodes II and III) maybe a bunch of old Warsaw Pact stuff as well. But yeah, no such luck on that. A bit sad I think.
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Sep 22, 2019 08:24
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Siivola posted:That's literally what they did for Rogue One and it's actually kind of jarring to spot a pistol made out of an AR lower and camera kit. Ah, I'd kind of forgotten about Rogue One. Though I'm not that surprised to learn this, the production design and visuals in that movie kind of was the single standout, the movie looked really good, and it had dumb dated stuff like thick analog cables and blocky data storage tapes, which fits right into Star Wars in my opinion. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 08:33
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Randarkman posted:Ah, I'd kind of forgotten about Rogue One. Though I'm not that surprised to learn this, the production design and visuals in that movie kind of was the single standout, the movie looked really good, and it had dumb dated stuff like thick analog cables and blocky data storage tapes, which fits right into Star Wars in my opinion. And  70s mutton chops
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Sep 22, 2019 09:00
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SeanBeansShako posted:As is the case with most uniform design the stuff that works stays and the stuff that loses their function and fashion just fade away.  
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Sep 22, 2019 12:35
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HEY GUNS posted:historical recreationists are at it again, but what is it this time? let me give you an example Rejecting vaccines to own teh SCA.
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Sep 22, 2019 12:55
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Life finds a way. And with that life is somebody who thinks certain things are cool. I am one of these nerds.
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Sep 22, 2019 13:46
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HEY GUNS posted:roads are important but if you are thinking of a single track that's graded and maintained that's the wrong mental image. Think of braids of multiple tracks, most of which are varying degrees of completely poo poo. For e.g, the road which connected London and Edinburgh (and is now the A1 road on virtually the same route) started off mostly as the Roman Ermine Street (Londoninium to Eboracum) and archaeological evidence suggests that it was between 10 and 20 feet wide on a paved and graded surface that we would recognise as 'a road'. Once the Romans left the route between London and Edinburgh changed and what became known as the 'Great North Road' emerged, stitched together from stretches of the old Ermine Street and bits of entirely unpaved pre-Roman track that went where the travellers wanted to get to. In the 12th century there was a royal decree that roads had to be wide enough for 'two carts to pass or six armed knights to ride abreast', but by the time Daniel Defoe toured Britain in the 18th century the Great North Road was reported to be hundreds of yards wide, with individual tracks and threads passing either side of trees, hedgerows, farm buildings, running through different fields or even on entirely opposite sides of villages, only heading in roughly the same direction and coming together where they joined other roads, crossed rivers at fords or bridges and passed through market towns. In the winter a particular section of 'road' (really just an unmade track stamped out of the ground) would become unpassable and horses, carts and people would keep getting stuck in the mud. Travellers would then just go around the new obstacle and if that meant detouring by a few dozen yards to find a bit of higher ,drier ground or a bit of existing track that hadn't been quite so ruined, then so be it. If you were wealthy and had to make a long-distance road journey you'd often send one of your servants, or employ a specialist guide, to travel a day or so ahead of you to find out where the best parts of the route ran and leave notes at the inns along the way - and all this to navigate what was acknowledged at the time as a single 'road'. It could take as much as six days to travel by the Great North Road between London and York (200 miles). From the late 18th century the turnpike trusts were formed to rebuild, reroute, upgrade and maintain the roads, the Great North Road became recognisably 'a road' again and a stagecoach could get to York in a day's travel. Semi-interesting fact - the A1 that now sits on top of large parts of the former Great North Road is still does sudden sharp turns in the middle of nowhere where it follows the changes of course of the original Roman road (often with a truckstop off to one side which is the actual course of the former Ermine Street which was bypassed when the road was upgraded that they took the opportunity to ease out the bend a little) and on the bits that are on top of of the medieval tracks it still does mysterious wiggles for no apparent reason - because in the 16th century some travellers tramped to one side to avoid a patch of mud or a fallen tree and that became the accepted 'route' of the road which was still faithfully followed in the 1960s when they built the modern high-speed road.
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Sep 22, 2019 15:51
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SeanBeansShako posted:Life finds a way. Second best next to the navy uniform hoooooooyah!
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Sep 22, 2019 18:11
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Siivola posted:That's literally what they did for Rogue One and it's actually kind of jarring to spot a pistol made out of an AR lower and camera kit. The prequel and sequel trilogies did have a surprising amount of real firearms in use. They had some completely constructed guns to fit with the more overtly sci-fi aesthetic (which was intentional to show it as a "Golden Age" compared to life under the Empire), but Naboo security had guns based on Calico submachine guns and air pistols.   The sequel trilogy updated the E-11 to the F-11, but they had stuff like ATI AR-15 stocks on them.  My personal favorite for obscurity is this rifle that's based on a Bergmann pistol:  As for costumes, try to count all the used items on this Death Trooper: 
chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Sep 22, 2019 |
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Sep 22, 2019 18:13
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Randarkman posted:Of course the Jawa energy weapon is operated by bolt action, I mean how else would it work? This is Star Wars. Are you implying that Chewie's laser crossbow also makes no sense being shaped like a crossbow?  Platystemon posted:The Lee–Enfield rifle is based on found alien technology. Siivola posted:That's literally what they did for Rogue One and it's actually kind of jarring to spot a pistol made out of an AR lower and camera kit.
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Sep 22, 2019 18:41
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And here I thought the loss of the old junk aesthetic was just because stuff in the new movie just wasn't made of old junk anymore. I guess they just decided to make the stuff glued onto the guns in the newer movies smoother and shinier. Ties are probably the most vestigial of uniform pieces. You can't even see most of them behind the jacket. Was there ever a reason for the strap?
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Sep 22, 2019 18:59
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I hate this so much. It feels so much like cosplaying as WWII soldiers, very much like playing "dress up" instead of an actual army uniform. I think it's the first time the Army has gone backwards with a dress uniform instead of making a new one. Not to mention that they had a green uniform for 60 years, worn by generations of soldiers that was fine for office work and was recognizable to the public as an Army uniform. But hey, I'm old and the mandatory possession date is after I get out, so whatever, I don't have to buy it.
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Sep 22, 2019 20:00
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SlothfulCobra posted:And here I thought the loss of the old junk aesthetic was just because stuff in the new movie just wasn't made of old junk anymore. I guess they just decided to make the stuff glued onto the guns in the newer movies smoother and shinier. Which strap? If you're talking about the belly-button height belt it's to create an illusion of long legs and height.
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Sep 22, 2019 20:12
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SlothfulCobra posted:And here I thought the loss of the old junk aesthetic was just because stuff in the new movie just wasn't made of old junk anymore. I guess they just decided to make the stuff glued onto the guns in the newer movies smoother and shinier. Think of how much material they could save if they only used half a tie.
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Sep 22, 2019 20:12
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Milo and POTUS posted:Think of how much material they could save if they only used half a tie. Or they could go all out and make the tie a disguised, inverted Y-strap with numerous hook fasteners sewn into the jacket
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Sep 22, 2019 20:15
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LingcodKilla posted:Second best next to the navy uniform hoooooooyah! 
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Sep 22, 2019 20:19
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Cyrano4747 posted:Or they could go all out and make the tie a disguised, inverted Y-strap with numerous hook fasteners sewn into the jacket I'm trying to wrap my mind around this but I just can't
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Sep 22, 2019 20:25
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Cyrano4747 posted:Which strap? If you're talking about the belly-button height belt it's to create an illusion of long legs and height. The dangly one. That was always the part that was most confusing to me with Fullmetal Alchemist uniforms, but I know I've seen them on other fancy uniforms too. It's a neat bit of frill for a dress uniform, but I assume there was some reason at some point? Can you stick a hammer in there like with carpenter pants?
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Sep 22, 2019 20:38
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One hundred and thirty thousand shaft horsepower of steam turbine and they can't find enough spare steam to get the creases out of their trousers?
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Sep 22, 2019 20:42
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