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$75k in CA seems very low for a science-related position for someone with an MS and 5+ years of experience. If you don't end up taking this job you should find another one locally. Your loyalty is likely costing you a lot of money.
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Nov 15, 2019 22:54
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Vox Nihili posted:$75k in CA seems very low for a science-related position for someone with an MS and 5+ years of experience. If you don't end up taking this job you should find another one locally. Your loyalty is likely costing you a lot of money. I'd like to second this opinion. You're getting hosed.
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Nov 15, 2019 22:59
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There's a pretty decent chance the ex-boss's pitch to the new company was along the lines of "this guy worked for me in California, he's good, and he's comically underpaid right now so we can get him cheap." Of course it's also quite possible that "cheap" turns out to mean like $105K.
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Nov 15, 2019 23:04
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Eric the Mauve posted:There's a pretty decent chance the ex-boss's pitch to the new company was along the lines of "this guy worked for me in California, he's good, and he's comically underpaid right now so we can get him cheap." I feel like the "get him cheap" part might be true if he was going from one San Diego company to another, but nobody sane is going to up and move across the country from one high cost of living location to another for an extra 10%. Also, why would the boss tell him the mid-point if he didn't imagine him getting close to that or more?
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Nov 16, 2019 00:45
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Got offered a front-end developer job. They never asked me what I wanted and instead offered 115k right off the bat. That's loving high for my area. Would I be out of place to ask for 5-10k more?  
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Nov 16, 2019 01:29
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Do the bennies suck?
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Nov 16, 2019 02:18
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I’m not familiar with Philadelphia or the east coast at all, but when looking at Glassdoor in general take it with a grain of salt, I’ve always found it to skew low and not capture non-salary compensation very well. Glassdoor lists the average base salary for my title as 25% below my actual, before bonus and stock. If you include non-salary comp it’s almost 40% below. And I’m nothing particularly special in my area, plenty of more senior ICs making more especially in stock and bonuses. And payscale.com is even further off the mark. Check out https://www.levels.fyi I’ve found it to be much more representative of what people are actually getting paid at medium/large tech companies in a region. Also be sure to factor in benefits as they can be worth (or cost you) serious money.
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Nov 16, 2019 02:26
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Is there any advice for asking for a significant raise when my contract comes up for review in 6 months or so? I was hired in August 2018 for an entry level, newly created position on the IT Support team for a non-profit charter school network. I said a number (jfc) because I didn't know any better. They accepted. Benefits are good. Then after about a month of working there, they determined this new position was actually hourly and not salaried. So at the hourly rate (same benefits) I'm actually making about 7k more (gross) but it still feels super low for IT. For my second years contract, everyone got a 3% raise. I have a pretty strong feeling I'm not going to be offered a promotion (due to the structure of the team), but I love my job, my team, and my organization, and don't plan on leaving. I want to go into this and prove I'm worth more than I'm being paid, but I'm not willing to walk away if they won't meet it. Any advice?
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Nov 16, 2019 03:22
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So I’ve been skimming this thread as I have a interview Sunday and it will be my first time of ever entering any kind of negotiation. Is there a site where I can see what a good salary to ask of would be for my area? Looking for digital marketing manager in New Hampshire. My last job I made like 38k and this new position would entail a hour long commute each way so I want to atkeast ask for 45k but don’t want to short sell myself.
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Nov 16, 2019 03:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:Do the bennies suck? I’m looking at $55/paycheck for all medical stuff, on the lowest plan. I would also have an HSA Guinness posted:Check out https://www.levels.fyi I’ve found it to be much more representative of what people are actually getting paid at medium/large tech companies in a region. Thanks. I’m definitely losing some valuable things, such as my HRA ($1500 to spend per year on medical costs), gym reimbursement, concrete work-from-home-policy And a few less vacation days. Idk if I were to negotiate, I might want to get more PTO days instead of salary
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Nov 16, 2019 04:22
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Empress Brosephine posted:So I’ve been skimming this thread as I have a interview Sunday and it will be my first time of ever entering any kind of negotiation. Is there a site where I can see what a good salary to ask of would be for my area? Looking for digital marketing manager in New Hampshire. My last job I made like 38k and this new position would entail a hour long commute each way so I want to atkeast ask for 45k but don’t want to short sell myself. I don't know about your personal position, but I would want A LOT more than 7k to commute 2 hours a day.
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Nov 16, 2019 04:23
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Thanks for the advice goons. Asking for 150k sounds insane but gently caress it I'll try it.Vox Nihili posted:$75k in CA seems very low for a science-related position for someone with an MS and 5+ years of experience. If you don't end up taking this job you should find another one locally. Your loyalty is likely costing you a lot of money. To be fair the first 2 years don't really count since I was a technician hosing mouse poo poo out of cages and other busywork for the scientists (I was desperately looking for a job after grad school in a bad job market and hadn't yet gone to therapy for my depression which didn't help things). So it's more like an MS and 3 years but I think your point still stands. Glassdoor is a little vague since my title is just generic "scientist" but it looks like I should be making at least ~90k. I need to get the gently caress outta this place. AnonymousNarcotics posted:Is there any advice for asking for a significant raise when my contract comes up for review in 6 months or so? This might only apply to working at a big corporation but is there a ticketing system? When I was an animal tech it was a similar system to IT in that the scientists would submit tickets for some procedure to be done, I'd get assigned to it, do the work, then the ticket is closed and they write feedback. I would gather all of this feedback at annual review time and give it to my boss to use as leverage to convince upper management to give me a raise/promotion. If you have goals that you set at the beginning of the year with your manager (hopefully you chose goals that are easy to beat), you can use those too. I'm not sure what to advise if there isn't anything like this in place, aside from polishing up the ol' resume.
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Nov 16, 2019 04:29
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bamhand posted:I don't know about your personal position, but I would want A LOT more than 7k to commute 2 hours a day. I’m unemployed at the moment and kind of in a pickle ; it’s either compromise for what this job would be that would be worth it for title alone or go back to retail :v
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Nov 16, 2019 04:58
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Muscular Typist posted:Hi thread, this is a cross-post from the Corporate thread regarding a job application that has progressed to the negotiation stage. If you are in CA and have made it through the first round, ask for a range. They are obligated to tell you and you don’t have to tell them poo poo. Get the range. Ask for the top end of it, or anchor above it.
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Nov 16, 2019 06:15
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Ultimate Mango posted:If you are in CA and have made it through the first round, ask for a range. They are obligated to tell you and you don’t have to tell them poo poo. Awesome. I had no idea about this law and am reading up on it now. This job's in Boston sadly but this is still good to know if I find something local. Looks like MA has a ban on asking for salary histories at least. Something younger me has been guilty of offering up...
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Nov 16, 2019 07:33
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So all the posts are about negotiating pay raises etc. I'm in a position where as strange as it seems, i am looking for the opposite. I hate my job. I am in IT, and have been at the same company now for 11 years. I have gotten large pay raises and bonuses, but nothing the last few years. I work from home, $105k, 27 days vacation, 10 public holidays, good health insurance that only costs me $40 a month. the pay and benefits are awesome and the reason I have stuck around for so long. I hate the work. Went from being jack off all trades type where i had my finger in all the pies and was part of a large team where we had a good bit of fun, stress was low. now i work on one particular item, not applicable to any other company out there, have no interaction with co workers and my boss (new) has absolutely no idea what my skill set is or what my day to day is (not as awesome as it sounds, believe me). I'm isolated, all my old team members have been laid off over the last few years, stressed to the eyeballs and generally just hating work. it sucks. i realize it sounds ideal to lots of folks, but I hate it. I am looking for more of a sys admin type job, on premise, with a team. because i have been so heavily silo'd the last few years a lot of my skill set is older (SQL server 2008, exchange 2005 etc). a level 1 or 2 sys admin position in my area makes around 60k - 80k. I would be extremely happy to make north of 70k. thankfully I knew this day was coming and i have spent the last 2 years getting completely out of debt other than mortgage, so we can take the pay cut, and if it increases the quality of my work life, its well worth it to me. Not sure how to negotiate though. I have an interview coming up, if i cannot avoid the what are you making now question, do I lie and say lower? Lying does not feel like its the way to go, I would rather be honest and then try and explain why I want this job. Just worried that asking for much lower than I make now will raise some red flags with the interviewer. Is it rare to choose a job thats lower paid for quality of life reasons?
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Nov 16, 2019 14:00
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Never tell them how much you make. It should be illegal to ask, and is in some states. If they refuse to consider you on the basis of you not telling them, run away, that's a red flag.
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Nov 16, 2019 14:44
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StonedogJones posted:So all the posts are about negotiating pay raises etc. I'm in a position where as strange as it seems, i am looking for the opposite. Don't tell them what you make, just keep saying that if they pay market rate you can work something out or that you'll evaluate the complete package and aren't focussing on salary alone. Let them make the first offer. Also, have a look at an AWS or Azure entry level certificate. It'll do wonders for your skillset. On udemy.com you can find ones from A Cloud Guru or Linux Academy that are realllly good for only 15-20 bucks. Certs are 150ish too and even with no knowledge whatsoever up front you probably only need 2-3 months to get ready. If you get it you probably don't even have to take a paycut.
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Nov 16, 2019 15:29
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LochNessMonster posted:Don't tell them what you make, just keep saying that if they pay market rate you can work something out or that you'll evaluate the complete package and aren't focussing on salary alone. Let them make the first offer. When deflecting the pay question during my last job switch I used the line, "I'm not really focusing on pay right now. I just want to make sure I'm a good fit for the roll and can add value." I can't say what would've happened if I didn't do that, but I think projecting confidence like this can only work out in your favor. There's one very consistent lesson I've learned from this thread: Goons, especially ones who focus on their weaknesses, consistently underrate themselves and their value on the market. You're focusing on your slightly dated skills and current focus on one specific area that doesn't transfer that well. To me your situation says this to me: You're a self-motivated employee who has succeeded for 11 years at their current employer. You've earned the trust of the company enough to be able to work remotely and be payed well for it. The only reason you're looking is because you're bored by your specific role and would like to learn other technologies and contribute to a team. Those are all fantastic things from an employer's perspective. I have no idea where you're getting your data that the positions you're looking at pay $60k-80k/yr, but keep in mind that fellow goons have found Glassdoor data to be lower than what the actual market is paying, especially for people with significant experience (which you have).
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Nov 16, 2019 17:44
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StonedogJones posted:Went from being jack off all trades type where i had my finger in all the pies and was part of a large team where we had a good bit of fun, stress was low. You can just say you don’t work in porn anymore.
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Nov 16, 2019 18:36
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BeastOfExmoor posted:
Thank you for this, that is not a perspective I had looked at it from at all. To my eyes, I am an IT dinosaur who stayed too long in one place because pay and benefits were too good to leave, who is now several years behind the times. I have 2 former IT directors, and one VP of operations who I have worked for, telling me I am vastly underrating myself, but I just dont see it. Especially when looking at job vacancy descriptions today. I guess we'll see which is true as I start getting interviews.
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Nov 16, 2019 23:13
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Empress Brosephine posted:I’m unemployed at the moment and kind of in a pickle ; it’s either compromise for what this job would be that would be worth it for title alone or go back to retail :v That's rough. Best of luck and keep plugging away at applications! Try to find what comparable positions in the area pay and start at the very high end of that would be my advice. You don't have a good bargaining position but you might be able to bluff them. Wouldn't hurt to try.
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Nov 16, 2019 23:26
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StonedogJones posted:Thank you for this, that is not a perspective I had looked at it from at all. To my eyes, I am an IT dinosaur who stayed too long in one place because pay and benefits were too good to leave, who is now several years behind the times. I have 2 former IT directors, and one VP of operations who I have worked for, telling me I am vastly underrating myself, but I just dont see it. Especially when looking at job vacancy descriptions today. I guess we'll see which is true as I start getting interviews. I was in a somewhat similar position myself 6 months ago. I'd worked at the same place for 13 years and worked my way up into doing something fairly specific where I felt I'd become a bit too specialized in a niche part of a field with not a ton of upward possibilities. Things had gone south in a hurry due to a really bad manager and I was panicking trying to get out of there. I was actually underpaid, but I considered taking a pay cut just to get something else because I felt I'd really reached my potential in that industry. Long story short is I was really fortunate and had a former boss point me to a opening in their company when I reached out to ask for a reference. I ended up getting a much better job, better coworkers and a huge raise. I'm not saying you'll end up with a huge raise, but don't undersell yourself and jump on the first $70k offer you get. I know you hate your job, but can you take your foot off the gas a little bit and relieve some of your stress? Focus some of your time on gaining new skills? Also, be sure to cast a wide net in your job search as far as roles go. The IT world is evolving rapidly and there's a lot more out there than just "sysadmin." If something looks remotely interesting give them a resume tailored with your best achievements that might relate in some way to that and let them decide whether or not you might be a good fit.
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Nov 17, 2019 00:38
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StonedogJones posted:(snip) You have to explain why you are doing it. In my industry people jump to lower paid positions a lot for some mix of the following reasons: travel/lifestyle/work life balance, more direct ownership of end to end, and nature of the work reasons. If you apply for a lower position, you still have to explain why.
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Nov 18, 2019 12:47
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Fireside Nut posted:Company A basically said they already had to have special permission to get up to 98k so 102k was a no go. However, they did agree to front loading 5 vacation days out of the gate - so woohoo for negotiating that! Thank you all for your advice. A quick update: I started last Monday at company A (98k and 15-30% bonus) However, I was told/under the impression that there would be 1 day, at least, WFH. After starting I find out WFH is indeed very flexible, but not an official policy, and the senior manager isn’t big on WFH. So, combine that with a longer commute and I’m feeling a little miffed about that. Company B gave me a solid offer and really wanted me and is basically as much WFH as I want with maybe a day or two a week in the office (and the commute is negligible). Anyways, the big question is how bad would it be if I were to leave company A after a short time and went to company B (assuming they reactivate their offer)? I feel like I can avoid totally burning a bridge by telling company A they never met my salary expectations (min I asked for was 102k and they only got to 98k) and this was an offer I had to take (125k with a direct path upwards, better PTO). Of course, I wouldn’t tell them the details of B’s offer. I was at my previous company ~9 years so it shouldn’t look like I’m job hopping and I can explain the same thing to any future potential employer that I received a vastly superior offer I had to pursue. Would y’all agree here or any thoughts on how badly I gently caress things up if I leave? Thanks goons, seriously appreciate the advice 
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Nov 18, 2019 17:16
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If Company A bait-and-switched you, bait-and-switch their dishonest asses right back IMO. However--your post leaves me with the impression that you asked about WFH and they dodged the question with a "company policy has nothing against it, some employees do work from home regularly" non-answer and you accepted that and moved on to the next thing. If so, that was a bad mistake. If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist.
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Nov 18, 2019 17:24
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Fireside Nut posted:Thank you all for your advice. Absolutely feel free to shrug Company A off if you can reactivate the second offer. At Will employment cuts both ways. Also, agree with Eric on that a nebulous promise of WFH means nothing unless you got it in writing. Don't sweat it, everyone has to learn that lesson at some point.
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Nov 18, 2019 17:28
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Eric the Mauve posted:If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist. Not a Children posted:Also, agree with Eric on that a nebulous promise of WFH means nothing unless you got it in writing. Don't sweat it, everyone has to learn that lesson at some point. Thank you both. It’s a lesson I had learned over and over when reading this thread but didn’t adhere to strictly enough during this process. I have a buddy on the team and he fed me a lot of insider knowledge before even applying so I think it tainted what questions I asked the managers. At this point I’m not sure where I got the impression there was one day WFH a week. Regardless, it’s a perfect example of ‘get it in writing’. I negotiated 40hrs PTO up front which I did manage to get in writing, but not this. Oh well, lesson learned. Anyways, my biggest fear is burning a bridge here, but it sounds like maybe that’s not a massive concern if I frame my decision to leave as receiving a vastly superior offer I just had to pursue? Of course, I’ll say I really appreciated the offer here and enjoyed my time, etc etc. just to leave on good terms. I would just assume I wouldn’t be hireable at Company A for probably like 2 years or so.
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Nov 18, 2019 17:51
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If you burn a bridge, you burn a bridge.
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Nov 18, 2019 18:30
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Jordan7hm posted:If you burn a bridge, you burn a bridge. The occasional burned bridge is fine if it leads you to a successful end. You can't avoid all costs.
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Nov 18, 2019 18:37
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$27k and more PTO... Light the match.
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Nov 18, 2019 19:00
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Thanks all! Scheduled to talk to Company B this afternoon. Will let you all know if I can strike the match...
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Nov 18, 2019 19:51
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So I recently accepted an offer for a new job. I had to accept it without telling my current employer as the offer came in while I was on vacation, and the deadline for an answer was during my trip. So I accepted it, the contract is at-will so not a huge deal if I walk away still. The offer came in at 10k more per year than what I am currently making. I never told them my current salary so this is good to me. I brought the offer to my current boss today and now I am ready to negotiate his counter-offer. He has offered verbally to match or beat the offer's salary and really wants me to stay on. I've been here 7 years and I have a wealth of knowledge that will disappear with me if I leave. I know they truly value me as an employee and they do want me to stay. I whipped up a pros and cons list: Stay with current company: Pros : • They are willing to match the offer for pay from the new company. • Short commute (takes me 8 mins to get to work, I often go home over my lunch hour to see my dogs, eat, rest up, etc). • Decent amount of vacation time (three weeks total). • Flex hours (I am currently working four 10 hour days, with Fridays off, so I get a 3 day weekend every weekend) • Seniority - I am a sysadmin and I have complete control over the infrastructure, and there is a service desk team below me to handle all the level 1 and 2 bullshit calls. I have a lot of authority, my opinions and skills are respected. Stay with the company: Cons: • I just got a new boss on my team who was my peer previously. I am a bit unsure about him, he is trying, but I feel he gets distracted easily, doesn't finish projects, and is not all that well respected. • I am stuck on a bullshit frustrating project indefinitely. I am working with inept vendors on this project who can barely figure out how to log in to a computer, but we are paying through the nose for their support. I spend 95% of my time on this project and there is no end in sight. The frustrations are what made me look for jobs in the first place. • Could be missing a big opportunity with the new job. • Not much room to move up from here, I don't want to do leadership positions, leaving just technical positions in play, and there aren't any new ones opening up in the next year. Take the new job: Pros: • More money + bonuses, probably would make even more money than if the current company matches offer, due to the bonus and profit sharing structure. • Free flight benefits- it’s for an airline so I could travel for free. • This is a new opportunity to gain knowledge and experience and generally bolster my resume. • It seems like a more prestigious company to work for. • Room to move up for technical skills and positions, one of the guys I interviewed even said he would bring my resume up to a different team. Take the new job: Cons: • Not as much control at the job - not an admin position, would not be in control of the infrastructure. Would be basically taking orders which is fine, but I fear my skillset may be under-utilized a bit. • Was told there would be some level 1 bullshit- including replacing keyboards and monitors for end users. Luckily all of the end-users that I would be working with are IT people, mostly developers, so that is a bonus. Still, level 1 bullshit is definitely not my thing anymore. • Commute is much longer, google says 48-55 minutes by car during rush hour, or about an hour via the light rail. • No 4 10s or flex schedule options. I attempted to negotiate this and they said it was not possible for the position, as they need visibility for the person in the position. • Not much vacation time (only two weeks per year for the first five years. I tried to negotiate an extra week, and the recruiter actually went to bat for me on this, but it was shot down). What would you guys do? Should I stick around and renegotiate my salary? Seems I didn't get too far with the two things I tried to negotiate for at the new company. Not sure if that is due to my lack of negotiation skills, or a true inability to budge on their end.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:15
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I would question whether you're actually getting a 10k raise if the following are true of the new job:quote:• Commute is much longer, google says 48-55 minutes by car during rush hour, or about an hour via the light rail. I would negotiate / take whatever your current place is offering and keep looking for something better, because doing this will hurt your long term position at current employer.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:23
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Drunk Beekeeper posted:• Was told there would be some level 1 bullshit- including replacing keyboards and monitors for end users. Luckily all of the end-users that I would be working with are IT people, mostly developers, so that is a bonus. Still, level 1 bullshit is definitely not my thing anymore. As a former IT lackey this would be the biggest red flag in the world for me. You could easily end up back as tier 1 help desk most of the time. When you also factor in the bad commute I would stay at the current job even without the 10k/yr raise. I would also continue to look for a new job.
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Nov 18, 2019 22:37
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Thank you guys, I think this is what I needed to hear. The big career move sounds enticing but the cons are starting to outweigh the pros in my head. I have my current boss drafting up a counter offer so we will see what he comes up with and go from there.
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Nov 18, 2019 23:54
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Drunk Beekeeper posted:Thank you guys, I think this is what I needed to hear. The big career move sounds enticing but the cons are starting to outweigh the pros in my head. I have my current boss drafting up a counter offer so we will see what he comes up with and go from there. Start looking for a job now. There's a huge chance you're on a list as a flight risk now and could just be suddenly laid off/replaced if you take that counteroffer, but you don't have much of a choice at this point. Next time, if you're "eh" on a job opportunity, don't even bring up that you got an offer to your current employer unless it's to give your two weeks or it's a huge risk for you. It doesn't matter how integral/irreplaceable/high performing you are. Read the thread more- this has been discussed repeatedly. That said, not trying to make you panic- good luck.
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Nov 19, 2019 14:39
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yeah if you accept the counter (which it sounds like is a good idea in your case) you need to continue looking, because that's a short term solution
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Nov 19, 2019 14:58
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Counterpoint: an ex of mine put in her notice and her employer beat the new offer, bumping her from 48,000 —-> 72,000 to stay onboard. That was 5 years ago and she’s been there ever since.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:44
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tesilential posted:Counterpoint: an ex of mine put in her notice and her employer beat the new offer, bumping her from 48,000 —-> 72,000 to stay onboard. That was 5 years ago and she’s been there ever since. wow one whole anecdote that should definitely be the basis of m0therfux0r's decision
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Nov 19, 2019 16:58
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