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Arcturas posted:Awesome, thank you. Generally speaking in a "regular" metagame and deck speed, 35-38 lands with that many rocks is fine. I would, however, advise against using 3 Mana cost rocks. 2 Mana ones are generally a lot better even if they only produce colorless Mana or etb tapped. Also cards like Land Tax, Tithe and Weathered Wayfarer can be nice for keeping you at par for land count even if they don't ramp you.
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Dec 18, 2019 22:47
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A wise, handsome, and very cool person once said.Toshimo posted:This reminds me. If you are using 3-CMC rocks at this point, even on a budget, you are probably loving up. Even mono-colored decks have access to 8 (now 9) 2-CMC rocks + Sol Ring and most are under $1. If you are on your 10th mana rock and it's gonna be loving Darksteel Ingot, drop that poo poo and just make a better deck without it. And also. Toshimo posted:For monocolor:
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Dec 19, 2019 01:12
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Didn't realize until the most recent Command Zone podcast that Jimmy Wong's brother is Freddie Wong ...You know, the guy who purchased the original Johnny Fiveaces drawing? Also he's supposedly a pretty big deal on YouTube or something Also Jimmy's gonna be in Mulan which is pretty lol
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Dec 19, 2019 01:27
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Thanks, both of you. I'll add some of those new recommendations and look at running Sol Ring, Arcane & Orzhov Signet, Fellwar Stone, Everflowing Chalice, Fractured Powerstone, Mind Stone, Prismatic Lens, and Talisman of Hierarchy, plus Charcoal & Marble Diamond. That's 11 mana rocks, which honestly seems like plenty and with 35-ish lands will make the deck about half mana. Seems adequate? Also, I'm assuming I should drop the taplands even though I'm aiming for budget? It's only a two-color deck so I figure things like the Basilica, Guildgate, that gain-one-life-when-played tapland, etc aren't really necessary and I can just run a bunch of swamps and plains? Now to cut down the 200-ish cards I have in Archidekt to 100... Arcturas fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 01:30
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Yeah generally speaking if a dual land can't come into play untapped at least most of the time then it's not worth running, even on a budget, especially in a two color deck.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:37
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They're also in the midrange price (more than $10 and less than $50), but Mox Amber, Mox Tantalite, Chrome Mox, and Mana Vault aren't just for mega-rich players. Lotus Petal and Thran Dynamo are playable too, but aren't as generally useful. Most of these are probably going to hold their value at the very least, and picking up $50-$100 worth of premium cards that go in every deck is a better use of money than putting together a 5th or 6th new Commander deck from scratch, for my money. The stupid expensive ones are Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Grim Monolith, and Lion's Eye Diamond. If I didn't have those in my box from when they were printed new, I'd be hard pressed to spend on those things. edit: ^^^ in a two-color deck, I'd suggest rolling with basics over the duals that come in tapped. Unless you're really heavy on colored mana costs over generic mana, you'll be able to work it out. It's 3+ colors where you start needing the expensive lands.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:37
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Caves of Koilos, Command Tower, Exotic Orchard, and Tainted Field are dirt cheap and don't come in tapped. Silent Clearing is absolutely worth 5bux. If you put those 5 in first and fill with basics, that's fine as a manabase and I'd probably do that before slowing myself down for guilgate or worse. BW temple is about the only cipt dual I'd consider and even then, it'd be close.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:45
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I forget where, but Mitch of Commander's Quarters has formulated something similar yet different to the 2 mana rock rule: he wants to get at least 1/2 the mana invested back. This naturally skews towards 2 cost because there are fairly few rocks that do that that aren't 2 already. I was thinking that what he said made sense... but then I thought about what happens when I have 3 lands and an Ur-Golem's eye. Having more 2s are almost certainly more ideal. And speaking of CitPT lands, I actually decided to buy a Lantern-Lit Graveyard and Cinder Marsh for my Xantcha to have as few taplands as possible, since I didn't want to spring for real lands like Luxury Suite. Here's hoping I don't regret that.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:56
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All 10 shocks, fetches, and painlands are worth having in a collection for EDH. The 4 Tainted lands and Bojuka Bog are all must-haves in any deck running swamps. Many of the fastlands are still inexpensive with some notable exceptions. The Battlebond ‘2 or more opponent’ lands are worth getting, even at their recent prices (no reason these aren’t printed in every commander product moving forward). City of Brass, Exotic Orchard and Forbidden Orchard are all solid gets. Reflecting Pool, Mana Confluence and Ancient Tomb are all useful across decks if you have the cash to spend.
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Dec 19, 2019 04:00
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Infinite Karma posted:
You can get a gold bordered grim monolith for  which is a slightly less insane amount to pay for a cardboard board game piece, even if it’s tournament illegal. Same with ancient tomb.
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Dec 19, 2019 05:16
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Arcturas posted:I'm brewing a Teysa, Orzhov Scion budget-ish deck (aiming to keep it under $100 since I haven't really built any decks other than tweaking the Commander 2019 precons) What kind of meta/environment are you building for? Kitchen table/friendly, LGS, or competitive?
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Dec 19, 2019 05:20
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The Clowner posted:What kind of meta/environment are you building for? Kitchen table/friendly, LGS, or competitive? Kitchen table to light LGS. My brother has some reasonably competitive decks but I can always borrow one if I want to do that. I’d just like something nicely themed to get some more table time and experience. I really like the Teysa sac/kill/spawn spirits built-in combo, especially with the enchantment that makes everything black, so I was hoping to do that and also spawn lots of little tokens, and pick up some incidental life drain on the table at the same time. I’m not sure that’s a super viable game plan, but at least I have a win condition in mind? Plus maybe swinging with a few beaters to close things out? Though I am eyeing an Ashnod’s altar, darkest hour, Teysa, and aristocrats drain sac payoff combo. Arcturas fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 05:40
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junan_paalla posted:You can get a gold bordered grim monolith for Gold border isn't legal in any format at all, so if you're going down that road, might as well just fire up the laser printer and make proxies.
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Dec 19, 2019 07:57
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Gynovore posted:Gold border isn't legal in any format at all, so if you're going down that road, might as well just fire up the laser printer and make proxies.
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Dec 19, 2019 10:48
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Gold Border cards are basically the highest quality proxies available and no Commander table will ever give you poo poo for them unless it’s a p2w cEDH pod.
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Dec 19, 2019 15:02
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Bust Rodd posted:a p2w cEDH pod. Seems contradictory to me. Every cEDH pod I've been in, for prizes or not, is proxy friendly. The general mindset seems to be "we like playing the game with powerful cards" not playing wallet wizards.
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Dec 19, 2019 15:25
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Aranan posted:Seems contradictory to me. Every cEDH pod I've been in, for prizes or not, is proxy friendly. The general mindset seems to be "we like playing the game with powerful cards" not playing wallet wizards. The only angle shooters I’ve ever played commander with were grognard megadweebs at $5 tables, and they called a judge on this kid for having a gold Rishadan Port in her deck. She swapped it out for a basic Wastes, then comboed us out with Rings of Brighthearth anyway. The guy who called the judge was a bootyhole. I don’t care about proxies just because I’ve always been very poor and not everyone who plays has had the opportunities I’ve had to slowly build a collection over 20 years. If a young 18 year old wants to get into the game but can’t afford it, I’m not gonna hold that against them. We have a dude at our store who has 4 cEDH decks that are 100% proxies and some people won’t play with him because they hate losing to fake cards. Those guys are weenies.
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Dec 19, 2019 15:30
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The only reason I would care about a proxy is if it's some lovely unreadable laser printer bullshit or literally just the name of a card written on the back of a common in sharpie. Like, it's not that hard to just shell out $4 for a decent looking Chinese fake and give yourself some deniability.
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Dec 19, 2019 16:04
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Bust Rodd posted:4 cEDH decks that are 100% proxies and some people won’t play with him because they hate losing to fake cards. Those guys are weenies. Then he doesn't have 4 cEDH decks. He has 4 piles of paper with words on them. If those decks are *literally* 100% proxies I'd tell the guy to go gently caress himself too. Guess I'm a weenie. I view proxies as a way to test a deck and work towards owning that deck...if you're not even contemplating making moves towards owning the deck why bother? Also, something something not supporting the game store he's playing in something. midge fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 16:04
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midge posted:Then he doesn't have 4 cEDH decks. He has 4 piles of paper with words on them. I have bad news about your EDH decks.
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Dec 19, 2019 16:13
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Because paying $2000-$5000 for a deck is stupid, but I also don't want to play low powered cards. I say this as someone who owns multiple decks in that price range (because I've been playing forever and I put a chunk of my decent disposable income into this stupid game). I want to be able to sit down with the average LGS player and play games. There are multiple proxy only decks at my store and, guess what, games with those decks are just as fun as games with 100 Official WotC Magic The Gathering Cards (tm). The economic barrier for this game sucks and anyone trying to argue "how dare you want to play cards worth more than the car you drive here in" is, in fact, a weenie. You might be a nice weenie, but it's still a weenie stance. Edit: there's also a difference between competitive decks and their players with that mindset versus pubstompers who enjoy taking stronger decks into weaker pods just to poo poo on people. cEDH (for me and those I play with) is about having close games that are hard fought wins. That's why we all also have various casual decks to play into other pods or (gasp) proxies cEDH decks to loan out for people who want to get a taste of the format. Because lol at the thought of me handing my $5000 Opus Thief deck to little Timmy, but it's a different story with handing over 100 sleeved basic lands with printouts in front of them. And I support my LGS by doing drafts, prereleases, and buying singles I want. If they foster a friendly and welcoming environment, people tend to spend money there. Aranan fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 16:18
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Retromancer posted:I have bad news about your EDH decks. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Dec 19, 2019 16:23
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Aranan posted:Because paying $2000-$5000 for a deck is stupid, but I also don't want to play low powered cards. I say this as someone who owns multiple decks in that price range (because I've been playing forever and I put a chunk of my decent disposable income into this stupid game). I want to be able to sit down with the average LGS player and play games. There are multiple proxy only decks at my store and, guess what, games with those decks are just as fun as games with 100 Official WotC Magic The Gathering Cards (tm). It's a personal mindset. I wouldn't even consider building a deck that was a majority of proxies with no strategy to complete that build if it deck works out. Upgrading and completing decks is gratifying for me and I'd rather sit down and play at a lower power level with legit cards. I guess my weenie stance is "if you're never going to own that card, why kid yourself?". The loaner deck thing I get and that is a cool thing to do.
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Dec 19, 2019 16:29
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midge posted:Then he doesn't have 4 cEDH decks. He has 4 piles of paper with words on them. If those decks are *literally* 100% proxies I'd tell the guy to go gently caress himself too. Guess I'm a weenie. I view proxies as a way to test a deck and work towards owning that deck...if you're not even contemplating making moves towards owning the deck why bother? Also, something something not supporting the game store he's playing in something. We’d rather not tell poor kids who want to play to gently caress off. Like I said, I spent 20 years not being able to play the cool formats because I couldn’t afford it. We have dudes at the store who won’t play with Will either, but they are also the dudes playing the jankiest decks like Naya “Goad” tribal. Anyone of pubstomper+ level doesn’t give a poo poo, it’s better for us because he’s the only one being Brago and Godo to the tables. Also from the perspective of the LGS, the kids who can’t afford to buy singles are way less of a threat to the store than the rich guys who throw cash around and offer to buy up all the good singles for more than the store can offer. We have 2 mtg finance guys at the store who always try to set stuff up in the parking lot if they hear you’re cashing out, and the store hates it. I’d rather more people play commander than less people play commander, and as someone with multiple $3,000 decks, I really don’t give a poo poo about playing against proxies. midge posted:It's a personal mindset. I wouldn't even consider building a deck that was a majority of proxies with no strategy to complete that build if it deck works out. Upgrading and completing decks is gratifying for me and I'd rather sit down and play at a lower power level with legit cards. I guess my weenie stance is "if you're never going to own that card, why kid yourself?". The loaner deck thing I get and that is a cool thing to do. Must be awesome to have a steady job with lots of disposable income.
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Dec 19, 2019 16:31
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midge posted:It's a personal mindset. I wouldn't even consider building a deck that was a majority of proxies with no strategy to complete that build if it deck works out. Upgrading and completing decks is gratifying for me and I'd rather sit down and play at a lower power level with legit cards. I guess my weenie stance is "if you're never going to own that card, why kid yourself?". The loaner deck thing I get and that is a cool thing to do. Maybe people just like playing the game and don’t care about collecting dolls you enormous loving tool.
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Dec 19, 2019 16:36
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Bust Rodd posted:We’d rather not tell poor kids who want to play to gently caress off. Like I said, I spent 20 years not being able to play the cool formats because I couldn’t afford it. This is probably part of it. Grew up poor af and now I'm not as poor.... pseudanonymous posted:Maybe people just like playing the game and don’t care about collecting dolls you enormous loving tool. Yep, I like dolls too - thanks for getting personal x
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Dec 19, 2019 16:39
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Yeah I’m not trying to come off as antagonistic, I’m sorry if I did, I’m just saying it’s easy as a 30-something year old to be like “just buy the cards” but we’re a community and if I hadn’t had cool Elder nerds take me in and teach me to play legacy and vintage despite not being able to afford a goddam booster pack, I wouldn’t be playing today. We had a high school kid come in with a pile of like water damaged draft chaff and within 20 minutes everyone was whippin dollar rares at him and penny sleeves at him until he had a full Brimaz Cat deck sleeved up and grubby retired playmat to play on. We have a little kid like 13-14 who came in with Mono-G bad stuff and now he has a loving sick little Gruul stumpy deck that can almost always take out one player. We’re also fortunate enough that we have a full jank meta in addition to a powered meta and a cEDH meta in our community, so there’s always someone playing the game you’re trying to play. We also aggressively bully pubstompers out. “Anyone want a quick game of EDH, casual?” “SURE!” “Grimonlith, Basalt Monolith, Rings of Brigthearth, Karn” “cool job buddy but that’s not what casual means”
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Dec 19, 2019 16:57
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midge posted:It's a personal mindset... I guess my weenie stance is "if you're never going to own that card, why kid yourself?". You're the one who made it personal. I don't try to tell you how to have fun with your cardboard, but you clearly judge how other people do. I'm not kidding myself at all. I have 0 desire to own "real" fake magical cards. I just like playing with my friends. I go to the LGS and I'm very clear that my decks are 100% proxies.
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Dec 19, 2019 17:35
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pseudanonymous posted:You're the one who made it personal. I don't try to tell you how to have fun with your cardboard, but you clearly judge how other people do. There is a marked difference between you taking untargeted comments on a forum *personal* and me making things personal. I'm also not judging people based on their choices, you can do whatever the gently caress you want, just as I can make a choice not to play under those conditions. If you honestly have zero desire to own cards, why are you playing? This is one of the few hobbies that someone can get into with a comparatively low cost of entry and it's seems a bit disrespectful to your friends that HAVE spent the money to have a stance of "gently caress buying this poo poo". midge fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 17:38
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Magnetic North posted:Old decommissioned decks:
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Dec 19, 2019 17:42
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midge posted:There is a marked difference between you taking untargeted comments on a forum *personal* and me making things personal. I'm also not judging people based on their choices, you can do whatever the gently caress you want, just as I can make a choice not to play under those conditions. You literally said you judge people in your post. I get it, you don't want to "judge people" but you do a thing that is judging people. Suck it up. To actually play the game? Are you stupid or what? I've been repeatedly very clear.
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Dec 19, 2019 17:44
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pseudanonymous posted:You literally said you judge people in your post. Where? pseudanonymous posted:To actually play the game? Are you stupid or what? I've been repeatedly very clear. A game that you've previously stated is a "very bad game". I honestly don't have an issue with people playing with proxies in friend groups, and under mutually agreed conditions, I'd just rather not sit at those tables; it's a personal stance. Whereas you, someone who doesn't appear to like the game nor wish to spend any money on it...is here...in a thread, about that game.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:08
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I own a few real budget decks because I like to play with real cards when I can and that's what I can afford, but gently caress paying thousands of dollars for pieces of cardboard, and absolutely gently caress anyone who plays gatekeeper because they feel insecure about spending half their working-class income on a card game and feel the need to take it out on others
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Dec 19, 2019 18:10
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midge posted:Where? You seem like you're just a complete loving idiot or a troll, so I'm done.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:11
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midge posted:I honestly don't have an issue with people playing with proxies in friend groups, and under mutually agreed conditions, I'd just rather not sit at those tables; it's a personal stance. Whereas you, someone who doesn't appear to like the game nor wish to spend any money on it...is here...in a thread, about that game. Since it seems like you feel money matters, how would you feel playing against a pod of our $10000 decks, with all real cards? Or is that not cool because you aren't as fortunate as us? It's the exact same thing when you gatekeep for whatever arbitrary price level you seem to be. If you want to play with your expensive, cool cards, you need to let everyone else be on the same footing, period. If you limit yourself to modified precons worth $50, sure, knock yourself out with the elitism. That's why we have not cEDH decks in our boxes, winning is meaningless if your opponents are handicapped by budget.
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Dec 19, 2019 18:26
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Infinite Karma posted:Since it seems like you feel money matters, how would you feel playing against a pod of our $10000 decks, with all real cards? Or is that not cool because you aren't as fortunate as us? It's the exact same thing when you gatekeep for whatever arbitrary price level you seem to be. I'd play in the pod with my deck that isn't on par and try to overcome the disadvantage, or simply bow out of the pod. Alternatively, if it wasn't the first time I was in the pod, I'd ask if it's cool I try out a couple of cards as proxies and aim to buy/trade up to those cards if they help pull the deck together enough for me to compete on that level. Infinite Karma posted:If you want to play with your expensive, cool cards, you need to let everyone else be on the same footing, period. If you limit yourself to modified precons worth $50, sure, knock yourself out with the elitism. That's why we have not cEDH decks in our boxes, winning is meaningless if your opponents are handicapped by budget. Yep - I agree with all this. At my LGS there is often a "power level" preamble that people have decent handle on. For clarity, I'm not trying to lock people out of playing EDH, but I do feel that people should be realistic about where they are and what level they are competing on. This is the same in almost every other competitive hobby, I don't understand why it's such an outrageous stance to have with MtG - and clearly I'm open to debating it. Even in modern day gaming you are ranked/ELO'd and locked out of matches that you shouldn't be in for the sake of balance and mutual enjoyment. midge fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 18:41
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Well yeah, but in an online game your ELO isn't tied to you spending $5,000. You typically practice to get better at those games. You can jam all the precon games in the world but it's not going to eventually replace your manabases with ABUR duals and fast mana rocks.. What are your opinions on the various tournaments held on platforms like Cockatrice? Should everyone playing have physical copies of their cards? Does this extend to MTGO where stuff like duals and power are relatively cheap compared to paper but you shouldn't dare to run one in your vintage cube draft unless you have the real thing? This is obviously some hyperbolic nonsense, but I'm curious where it is that you draw the line. Aranan fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 19:05
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midge posted:Yep - I agree with all this. At my LGS there is often a "power level" preamble that people have decent handle on. For clarity, I'm not trying to lock people out of playing EDH, but I do feel that people should be realistic about where they are and what level they are competing on. This is the same in almost every other competitive hobby, I don't understand why it's such an outrageous stance to have with MtG - and clearly I'm open to debating it. Even in modern day gaming you are ranked/ELO'd and locked out of matches that you shouldn't be in for the sake of balance and mutual enjoyment. Proxies are what let people play at the level their skill dictates, instead of what their day job dictates.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:05
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That's the best summary. There's a dude I know with a low paying job and two kids, so his disposable income is basically zero. But he has fun playing magic. Should we tell him he isn't welcome to play with us? I truly hate how expensive this game is, so I'm fine with people playing it without sinking huge $.
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Dec 19, 2019 19:11
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Rankings / skill levels != financial gatekeeping
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Dec 19, 2019 19:17
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