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Shigaraki does need soldiers. And capital. You wanna know why? "I have a dream!" That one day, everyone in this nation will control THEIR OWN destiny. A land of the TRULY free, goddammit! A nation of ACTION, not words! Ruled by STRENGTH, not committee! Where the law changes to suit the individual, not the other way around! Where power and justice are back where they belong: in the hands of the people with the strongest Quirks!
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Mar 17, 2020 20:01
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Has anyone given a thought that maybe the villains are a metaphor for homosexuals and minorities?
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Mar 17, 2020 20:01
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No, because they ARE queer and minorities.
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Mar 17, 2020 20:20
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Nephthys posted:I'd be more inclined to buy this all as a legitimate goal if there wasn't a very prominent shot of a baby in that scene of Shigaraki saying he wants to 'destroy everything'. Destroying everything is bad already, you don't need to elaborate.
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Mar 17, 2020 20:30
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When are people going to realize that the correct response to Toga and Twice and Shigaraki and Spinner's sad backstories is 
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Mar 17, 2020 20:45
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Mystic Mongol posted:...so I'm not really anticipating the Paranormal Liberation Front to enact a universal basic income and nationalize the banks. But society's crushing down so hard that the liberation army managed to recruit one hundred fifteen thousand people, willing to fight and kill and die for the right to use their quirks. Punching them good is not the end of that problem. The story has already devoted a pretty huge amount of airtime to sympathetic portrayals of a shitload of villains, and devoted an entire arc to Gentle - a character tailor made and introduced specifically for the purpose of introducing Deku to the idea that maybe poo poo isn't good the way it is. Hawks's offer of a light sentence and help to Twice is him explicitly acknowledging that Twice is worth redeeming despite his crimes(which, even if you ignore what he did before joining the LoV, include juicy stuff like attempted murder, attempted kidnapping, Actual Murder, and so on - not misdemeanors by any means). It's a superhero shonen manga so the villains will absolutely be stopped by Good Punches, but Horikoshi has already spent a ton of time hammering home the idea that "beat them up, throw them into prison, and throw away the key" doesn't fix this stuff, so it seems odd that people like to characterize the manga as boosting some kind of fascist police state as a flawless ideal. If the manga was really interested in boosting hero society as flawless and utterly good, it wouldn't waste so much time humanizing the enemies of said society and making the reader go "man i feel bad for them". I think a lot of people seem to be conflating the idea that the LoV needs to suffer some real consequences for what they've done with the idea that that means none of their grievances or personal tragedies are valid, which does not necessarily connect at all.
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Mar 17, 2020 21:01
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Funky Valentine posted:Shigaraki does need soldiers. And capital. You wanna know why? "I have a dream!" That one day, everyone in this nation will control THEIR OWN destiny. A land of the TRULY free, goddammit! A nation of ACTION, not words! Ruled by STRENGTH, not committee! Where the law changes to suit the individual, not the other way around! Where power and justice are back where they belong: in the hands of the people with the strongest Quirks! Hey theres an idea, Shigaraki becomes a US senator
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Mar 17, 2020 21:20
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Kanos posted:If the manga was really interested in boosting hero society as flawless and utterly good, it wouldn't waste so much time humanizing the enemies of said society and making the reader go "man i feel bad for them". Goon analysis is really fixated on the idea of all subtext being accidental and unintentional on the part of the author. I'm not sure why. "This character was supposed to be a bad guy, but instead they're their own character with motivation for acting the way they do. Ugh horrible writing why would you do something like this." mycot fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 21:42
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Mystic Mongol posted:Yeah, all those British soldiers killed because those colonists didn't want to pay their taxes! Greedy shits, killing good men over money. The revolution was unjustified. Why are you invoking real life comparisons? I didn't say there aren't valid revolutions/causes out there I am asking about the specific motives of the League of Villains a group possess that make it so you justify their mass murdering?
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Mar 17, 2020 22:04
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RareAcumen posted:Has anyone given a thought that maybe the villains are a metaphor for homosexuals and minorities? Sometimes a guy that turns people to dust is just a guy that turns people to dust
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Mar 17, 2020 22:19
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socialsecurity posted:Why are you invoking real life comparisons? I didn't say there aren't valid revolutions/causes out there I am asking about the specific motives of the League of Villains a group possess that make it so you justify their mass murdering? Seemed the fastest way to say that the motivations of the LoV don't matter as much as the effects of the PLA. Which probably aren't going to be good!
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Mar 17, 2020 22:36
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TheKingofSprings posted:Sometimes a guy that turns people to dust is just a guy that turns people to dust I mean Shigs aside that just literally describes Magne and Spinner. For those two being discriminated against by society wasn’t the whole reason they joined the VA but it was definitely a big part of why they did.
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Mar 17, 2020 22:39
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RareAcumen posted:Has anyone given a thought that maybe the villains are a metaphor for homosexuals and minorities? I don't think Magne was a metaphor.
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Mar 17, 2020 22:48
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For a series that so explicitly borrows from Western cape books it's weird that everyone is apparently overlooking the X-Men angle.
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Mar 17, 2020 22:49
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I don't see it... care to expand?
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Mar 17, 2020 23:04
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Mystic Mongol posted:I don't see it... care to expand? The Metahuman Liberation Front is basically just the Brotherhood of Mutants but with way more manpower.
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Mar 17, 2020 23:08
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Junpei posted:When are people going to realize that the correct response to Toga and Twice and Shigaraki and Spinner's sad backstories is People do realize that, but the ones responding to them take the sympathy displayed and acknowledgement of the injustices suffered to be absolution and then lecture them on how it's okay to have sympathy for the villains and acknowledge the injustice they suffered without absolving them. It's extremely tedious. Kanos posted:I think a lot of people seem to be conflating the idea that the LoV needs to suffer some real consequences for what they've done with the idea that that means none of their grievances or personal tragedies are valid, which does not necessarily connect at all. Justice being punitive rather than rehabilitative (i.e. criminals need to "suffer some real consequences") is a major part of why things are so bad. I agree with a lot of what you said otherwise, including that the LoV needs to be stopped even if they're sympathetic and many were utterly failed by the existing system, but I feel this is worth noting. What about a "lighter" sentence would help Twice, when he's already so broken that he's developed split personalities he can barely control, for example? Prison (not to be confused with "restraint or containment in any form whatsoever") would just mess him up even worse and keep him on the path he was going down prior to joining the League. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 17, 2020 |
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Mar 17, 2020 23:24
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Narratively consequences are the only thing that matter. That's why trying to 1:1 things to the real life issue is a bad idea.
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Mar 18, 2020 00:02
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Roland Jones posted:People do realize that, but the ones responding to them take the sympathy displayed and acknowledgement of the injustices suffered to be absolution and then lecture them on how it's okay to have sympathy for the villains and acknowledge the injustice they suffered without absolving them. Mystic Mongol posted:Yeah, all those British soldiers killed because those colonists didn't want to pay their taxes! Greedy shits, killing good men over money. The revolution was unjustified. 
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Mar 18, 2020 00:16
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:Miruko merked the Noumu cause they were corpses but she would never have done that to actual living villains. Are you sure? It's just, nothing she's done has given me the impression she routinely practices much restraint. She looked like she was 3 paces away from beating the poo poo out a grade school, high-school aged kid with a quirk he couldn't control. She's also encouraged Bakugo that his 'straight up intent to kill the villain is great!'. I would be very surprised to hear that her 'hare trigger' has never sent a villain to the hospital before. I wouldn't be very surprised to hear that she's killed or permanently crippled opponents.
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Mar 18, 2020 01:38
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"Extremely tedious" is a good summary of this discussion as a whole
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Mar 18, 2020 02:00
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socialsecurity posted:What is LoV's end goal that justifies murdering so many people? How many named characters have died to the LoV that had a greater degree of characterization than the sand hero jobbed by Dabi/Compress? Because that's my threshold, I'm not really interested in faceless goons Gabi torches in an alleyway we've never heard of. As far as Shonen mangas are concerned I'm not going to dwell too much on faceless takedowns. Wake me up when a LoV character kills a beloved Hero we've spent time with and gotten invested in, I'll care about that.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:08
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Roland Jones posted:Justice being punitive rather than rehabilitative (i.e. criminals need to "suffer some real consequences") is a major part of why things are so bad. "Consequences" in this scenario effectively means "you are forcibly not allowed to interact with society until it can be proven after treatment that you're not going to be a mass murderer anymore", which, for some members of the league, would likely mean a really loving long time. Rehabilitative justice is the ultimate goal both in terms of humanitarianism and reducing recidivism over time, but for some individuals rehabilitation takes a really, really long time to never. Your "not to be confused with restraint or containment" strikes me as a mealy-mouthed way of stepping around the issue that some villains are probably not rehabilitatable. Do you think someone like AfO or Stain is going to renounce their ways and become a good citizen? Do you think it's safe to just let them go free because punitive justice is bad? How about Shigaraki, the man who can and has brutally disintegrated like 300 people(in self defense) in four seconds, has repeatedly tried to murder and kidnap children, and openly avows that his life goal is to literally destroy everything in society? He had a terrible, horribly tragic past and was made into what he is by a monster, but that doesn't change that he's a mass murderer whose specific and only goal is to continue killing endlessly. Twice getting a light sentence would mean that the restraints on his freedom and movement could be substantially less restrictive due to the #2 hero vouching for him personally, allowing him to live a more normal life while receiving the treatment he obviously desperately needs. Think house arrest or a minimum security prison instead of gen pop or maximum security.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:12
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Crasical posted:Are you sure? Heroes cannot kill. A Hero killing is a crime, thus they would face consequences. This isn't to say that Heroes, even high-ranked ones, are free of sin - Endeavor's the Number 1 Hero after all! - but the idea that one of the highest ranking Heroes in the country would break such an incredibly public rule and not get immediately punished and stripped of her position is insane. Yeah, she agreed with Bakugou. She clearly has the same idea re:violence, but it's also heavily important to remember that Bakugou has also never killed anyone and has said "die" in every possible situation. His murderous intent is metaphorical, he's just highly spirited, pretty drat violent and has a terrible mouth on him, but he's fully aware what a Hero can and cannot do. Mirko agreeing with him and their overall similarities just tell us that such a behaviour isn't necessarily un-Heroic, but it's clear that the line is still there. Plus, Mirko being excited beyond belief she can actually go all-out is absolute proof she doesn't get to do it often. Otherwise she'd just see it as an everyday thing.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:23
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KazigluBey posted:How many named characters have died to the LoV that had a greater degree of characterization than the sand hero jobbed by Dabi/Compress? Because that's my threshold, I'm not really interested in faceless goons Gabi torches in an alleyway we've never heard of. As far as Shonen mangas are concerned I'm not going to dwell too much on faceless takedowns. Wake me up when a LoV character kills a beloved Hero we've spent time with and gotten invested in, I'll care about that. I get having sympathy for them but why are you rooting for them, what even is their goal that you are rooting for? They don't have any sort of ideal beyond killing/destruction at this point.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:26
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Kanos posted:"Consequences" in this scenario effectively means "you are forcibly not allowed to interact with society until it can be proven after treatment that you're not going to be a mass murderer anymore", which, for some members of the league, would likely mean a really loving long time. Rehabilitative justice is the ultimate goal both in terms of humanitarianism and reducing recidivism over time, but for some individuals rehabilitation takes a really, really long time to never. Wow, that sure is a lot of words that prescribe positions to me that I did not take and argue with things I did not actually say. This is why the discussion has been so lovely lately, it's mostly been people reading each other's posts in bad faith and arguing with the most extreme and negative interpretations of them rather than what was actually said. Roland Jones posted:It's extremely tedious.
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Mar 18, 2020 02:31
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Roland Jones posted:Wow, that sure is a lot of words that prescribe positions to me that I did not take and argue with things I did not actually say. You made a statement: Roland Jones posted:Justice being punitive rather than rehabilitative (i.e. criminals need to "suffer some real consequences") is a major part of why things are so bad. Which I engaged with directly by discussing what I meant by consequences. You then stated: Roland Jones posted:I agree with a lot of what you said otherwise, including that the LoV needs to be stopped even if they're sympathetic and many were utterly failed by the existing system, but I feel this is worth noting. What about a "lighter" sentence would help Twice, when he's already so broken that he's developed split personalities he can barely control, for example? Prison (not to be confused with "restraint or containment in any form whatsoever") would just mess him up even worse and keep him on the path he was going down prior to joining the League. To which I addressed how a "lighter sentence" in the context of a prison system could help Twice, despite how broken he is. Your last sentence, combined with your initial criticism of punitive justice vs rehabilitative justice, is why I spent time talking about the difficulties of rehabilitation in the prison system. I apologize for my "mealy mouthed" wording, which wasn't necessary on reflection, but there's a real big issue when the need for compassion and rehabilitation clashes with the need to make sure that people who hurt others cannot continue to hurt them. How am I talking past you or not reading your posts when I'm directly responding to your statements? (What's really tedious is people coming out of the woodwork to write one line shitposts about how boring and tedious an ongoing discussion is when there's nothing else going on in the thread because we're between chapters, though.)
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Mar 18, 2020 02:52
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Imagine arguing about this dumb poo poo when no one pointed out that Horikoshi added a character that gives people corona
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Mar 18, 2020 03:21
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socialsecurity posted:I get having sympathy for them but why are you rooting for them, what even is their goal that you are rooting for? They don't have any sort of ideal beyond killing/destruction at this point. I'm rooting for them, right now, because short of the inevitable powerup Tomura is going to wake up with (oh and Gigantomachia, I guess?) they're the underdogs in this fight and I am drawn to that. I'm also rooting for them because they have cool designs and/or interesting/compelling backstories. Oh and I guess I'm also rooting for them because they're at least adjacent to the idea that the society in MHA needs some reforming, which pretty much none of the Heroes, old or new, can really claim. Rooting for the badguys in fiction is perfectly acceptable prima facie and shouldn't really require justifying btw, as an aside.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:46
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Blaze Dragon posted:Heroes cannot kill. A Hero killing is a crime, thus they would face consequences. This isn't to say that Heroes, even high-ranked ones, are free of sin - Endeavor's the Number 1 Hero after all! - but the idea that one of the highest ranking Heroes in the country would break such an incredibly public rule and not get immediately punished and stripped of her position is insane. Heroes seem to be permitted to kill, judging from some of All Might's cases, and how Endeavor wasn't punished for frying that first Nomu before it was confirmed they were walking corpses, but it does seem to be subject to strict review, even for the top heroes. Killing someone is a very big deal, which means an adrenaline junkie like Mirko has to keep herself in check all the time. And the fact she was so excited about cutting loose suggests that was a lot of keeping herself in check normally.
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Mar 18, 2020 03:55
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chiasaur11 posted:Heroes seem to be permitted to kill, judging from some of All Might's cases, and how Endeavor wasn't punished for frying that first Nomu before it was confirmed they were walking corpses, but it does seem to be subject to strict review, even for the top heroes. I think they already learned the Nomu were corpses. Also apparently that first Nomu lived.
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Mar 18, 2020 04:33
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People do realize that "Lethal force is authorized" is a common phrase among police and the army when thing get real enough, right? I assume there's a similar thing for Heroes.
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Mar 18, 2020 04:34
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Endeavor even tried to capture High End alive at first before it rapidly became apparent that he was far too dangerous to hold back against.
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Mar 18, 2020 04:35
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Blaze Dragon posted:Heroes cannot kill. A Hero killing is a crime, thus they would face consequences. Didn't we get that one guy who was attempting Suicide by Cape not too long ago? He must have believed that if he pushed Endeavor a little, Endeavor would kill him, despite his ranking as #1 hero. I mean, heck, apply those lines above but with 'policeman' substituted for 'Hero'.
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Mar 18, 2020 04:44
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I like the one who shoots beams out of his belly. That's rad.
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Mar 18, 2020 05:20
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Crasical posted:Didn't we get that one guy who was attempting Suicide by Cape not too long ago? He must have believed that if he pushed Endeavor a little, Endeavor would kill him, despite his ranking as #1 hero. Yes but Endeavor took him alive last time and probably would have again. The only issue is that he hesitated due to his son being the hostage. (Which still probably would not have resulted in him failing to save Natsuo and take the villain out non lethally, but did result in him being beaten to the punch in resolving the incident.)
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Mar 18, 2020 05:21
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Izuku kills President Shigaraki in response to his execution of Mina, skip to two years later where Izuku and the rest of 1-A are now the fascist dictators of the world.Crasical posted:Didn't we get that one guy who was attempting Suicide by Cape not too long ago? He must have believed that if he pushed Endeavor a little, Endeavor would kill him, despite his ranking as #1 hero.
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Mar 18, 2020 05:24
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This just shows why we need a new All Might. Not for public safety or maintaining the peace or any of that silly nonsense but so there's someone around that'll keep people in line. Otherwise they'll punch the planet apart and let space sort out who's guilty or not.
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Mar 18, 2020 07:35
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Is the villain a good villain or bad villain if they’re doing villainy so Mirko will murder them with her thighs
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Mar 18, 2020 07:45
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TheKingofSprings posted:Is the villain a good villain or bad villain if they’re doing villainy so Mirko will murder them with her thighs Trying to force someone to participate against their will in your sexual fetishes is a bad thing.
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Mar 18, 2020 07:52
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