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PizzaProwler posted:Same question as above but regarding Frankish footmen throwing battleaxes. Not on the same scale that the game depicts it, but they did indeed throw axes. The name Frank comes from the francisca axe, which they would throw while charging to soften up the enemy lines before impact. If blocked by a shield, the axe would get stuck and render the shield much more cumbersome; and there are reports of Frankish soldiers grabbing the embedded axes by the handle to pull the shield down and then stabbing the bearer in the face.
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Mar 22, 2020 22:57
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Badass
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Mar 22, 2020 23:00
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verbal enema posted:Badass You'll pretty much never see this in media, but the Roman legions carried javelins for precisely the same tactic - and legion javelins were specifically built with long, thin 'necks' behind the tip so the javelin would bend after hitting an enemy or a shield, preventing it from being readily pulled out.
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Mar 23, 2020 00:22
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How exactly does something being bent make it at all harder to pull out? Thinking about the mechanics of it, I should think the opposite was true. E: ah, there's no evidence to suggest it was true in the first place 
3D Megadoodoo has a new favorite as of 00:57 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 00:54
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Cythereal posted:You'll pretty much never see this in media, but the Roman legions carried javelins for precisely the same tactic - and legion javelins were specifically built with long, thin 'necks' behind the tip so the javelin would bend after hitting an enemy or a shield, preventing it from being readily pulled out. The neck part was also made of lead specifically so it was soft. That's what made them so bendy; the other side of that was that bending after landing, even if they didn't hit anything, made it impossible to throw them back. One of the reasons the legion ruined basically everybody else was because a lot of thought went into how they operated and how their gear worked.
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Mar 23, 2020 01:17
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3D Megadoodoo posted:How exactly does something being bent make it at all harder to pull out? Thinking about the mechanics of it, I should think the opposite was true. Not harder to pull out impossible to throw back. It’s also a well documented fact so I don’t know what you are looking at
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Mar 23, 2020 01:48
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There is debate as to whether the bending of pila was a deliberate part of the design. It certainly was meant to pierce through a shield, armor, and into the enemy when thrown properly. This required a long shank which also makes it more prone to bending. There is mention of it being difficult to remove from a shield, but it could just as well be due to its deep penetration and long shaft. Kevin DuBrow has a new favorite as of 01:58 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 01:53
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Considering how long the pilla was in use that’s just semantics at that point
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Mar 23, 2020 02:09
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The first thing that came to mind for “iron‐sugar” was ferrous sulphate. It looks a lot like powdered sugar when dry.  Hydrates get clumpy and green.   Ferrous sulphate is used to supplement dietary iron and it’s relatively easy to overdose on. When a kid downs a bottle of Flinstones, it’s the chief enemy.
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Mar 23, 2020 07:59
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At least in Roman Republic times (I'm not super familiar with so much that happens after lil baby jesus) you have a number of references to pila being picked up and thrown back by the enemy. You also have pila being used a bit as a stabby kinda weapon, for e.g. at Pharsalus. And both before and after these references, you have Gaius Marius supposedly experimenting with a pilum with a soft wooden pin replacing one of the iron ones, so it would break on impact and just flop around like a dead weight, and after the battle you collect the pila, repair them, and reuse them - a requirement that presumably doesn't make sense if this "only use once" feature of the weapon already exists, or was sufficiently reliable *? You have reports of pila often falling short when being thrown on flat ground (since you're only supposed to throw at like 20-25 yards out), so maybe that would leave them intact, and the damage/warping only happens upon impact with shields or something hard * it could also be to reduce overhead on metalworking etc, i dont know enough about metals or roman manufacturing to say, but it seems unlikely. there's also no mention of him wanting to change it for any reason other than to reduce/zero out the rate of return of pila Sulla Faex has a new favorite as of 09:29 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 09:23
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Mamelukes, like Janissaries, have an interesting backstory that Age of Empires II doesn't really depict outside the manual; iirc, both are different styles of slave soldiers. The original Janissaries were seemingly made to get around some religious rules or another, as they were non-Muslim children who were raised in a monastic lifestyle and taught to be elite soldiers, using the best weapons of the time. (including, eventually, gunpowder)
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Mar 23, 2020 09:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Mamelukes, like Janissaries, have an interesting backstory that Age of Empires II doesn't really depict outside the manual; iirc, both are different styles of slave soldiers. The original Janissaries were seemingly made to get around some religious rules or another, as they were non-Muslim children who were raised in a monastic lifestyle and taught to be elite soldiers, using the best weapons of the time. (including, eventually, gunpowder) It's complicated but the general thinking is that you're not allowed to enslave another muslim, and even the enslavement of non-muslims was dogmatically problematic - early islam is actually comparatively generous to non-muslims living in their lands. In reality the rules get shifted or interpreted differently. The young janissaries were forced to convert to islam and I remember reading that this process was considered to result in the boys no longer being slaves (or rather, tax assets / war booty) -- might have gotten that from wikipedia though so take it with a grain of salt. "Slave" here is also a dangerous term because modern western audiences are likely to think of american chattel slavery, which is its own very distinct phenomenon and not super illuminating when it comes to slavery in other contexts
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Mar 23, 2020 09:58
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The main difference is that although the Janissaries were increasingly influential within Ottoman politics they never quite managed to become the ruling class like the Mamaluks did.
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Mar 23, 2020 10:01
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There were also the Ghilman who were a similar class of slave-soldiers, first employed by the Abassid Caliphs, and ended up being a major factor in their decline after they started playing politics and becoming kingmakers in Samara. They would later be employed rather more successfully by the Persians, who were generally able to prevent them from achieving political power. I'm not sure if there are any examples of this sort of elite military slave caste existing outside of the Islamic world.
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Mar 23, 2020 10:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The original Janissaries were seemingly made to get around some religious rules or another, as they were non-Muslim children who were raised in a monastic lifestyle and taught to be elite soldiers, using the best weapons of the time. (including, eventually, gunpowder) What's with the ladles though?
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Mar 23, 2020 10:15
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3D Megadoodoo posted:What's with the ladles though? Eh, it ain't nobodies business but the Turks.
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Mar 23, 2020 10:22
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Samovar posted:Eh, it ain't nobodies business but the Turks. They're kind of conspicuous. 
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Mar 23, 2020 10:26
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Angry Salami posted:
If you take away ""slave caste" then elite military becoming part of the ruling class is surprisingly common. You have the shoguns in Japan, the praetorian guard in Rome, the hird in Scandinavia, the normans in France and even the varangian guard that was supposed to be extra loyal to the emperor sometimes also acted as kingmakers (or emperormakers).
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Mar 23, 2020 11:32
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Even today! A lot of nations, and not only in the developing world, have the military play a strong role not just in legitimising the government but also in the actual ruling of and/or serving in government In the developed world now you'll find a number of countries where the key statespeople come from an intelligence background, which functions in a similar context. The military has historically been a key conduit for 'underrepresented' demographics (think foreign, rural, lower caste or even slaves) to gain recognition and power, despite attempts to limit access to (and the influence of) the military It's actually kind of weird to have non-royal heads of state with science or academic backgrounds, to my mind that must be almost purely a modern phenomenon - right? Sulla Faex has a new favorite as of 11:44 on Mar 23, 2020 |
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Mar 23, 2020 11:41
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Sulla Faex posted:* it could also be to reduce overhead on metalworking etc, i dont know enough about metals or roman manufacturing to say, but it seems unlikely. there's also no mention of him wanting to change it for any reason other than to reduce/zero out the rate of return of pila Roman metalworking and blacksmithing was decent but their smelting was terrible (later communities quite profitably mined Roman ore tailings for recoverable metal). It's possible the pilum's bendable neck was a happy accident. Roman legions had forges as part of their supply train so I imagine they made their own pila, or drew from stockpiles at depots. Re: pulling it out of your shield, bear in mind as you're doing this that the rest of the Roman front line is charging you. The javelins were a last-second disruption weapon, intended to break up enemy lines and counter-charges.
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Mar 23, 2020 11:45
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Sulla Faex posted:It's actually kind of weird to have non-royal heads of state with science or academic backgrounds, to my mind that must be almost purely a modern phenomenon - right?
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Mar 23, 2020 12:43
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The Guard in Rome never really became the ruling class. They had influence but never really took the last step for whatever reason
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Mar 23, 2020 15:29
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Seems rational given how many wannabe emperors ended up getting shanked.
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Mar 23, 2020 15:48
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The answer is actually obvious but I missed it. Unlike those other two the guard was the ruling class. They could and did become emperor so creating a special position like the shogun or Mameluke did was pointless
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Mar 23, 2020 15:51
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Angry Salami posted:There were also the Ghilman who were a similar class of slave-soldiers, first employed by the Abassid Caliphs, and ended up being a major factor in their decline after they started playing politics and becoming kingmakers in Samara. They would later be employed rather more successfully by the Persians, who were generally able to prevent them from achieving political power. Ministerials in medieval Germany.
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Mar 23, 2020 16:46
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verbal enema posted:Did the Mamelukes throw swords or has AoE2 been lying to me for 20 years i have to know this No.
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Mar 23, 2020 16:50
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oh no 
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Mar 24, 2020 01:38
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 The Catalogus Librorum Prohibitorum, first appearing in 1754, was an Austrian directory of banned books based on a similar list created by the Catholic Church. It was meant to be a reference for booksellers and the authorities. It eventually became a convenient way for less rule-abiding readers to discover interesting books and was itself banned by 1777.  https://mediengeschichte.dnb.de/DBSMZBN/Content/EN/Censorship/06-catalogus-librorum-prohibitorum-en.html
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Mar 24, 2020 02:20
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An excerpt of an 1876 speech by popular orator Robert Ingersoll, “The Great Agnostic” and a Union colonel in the U.S. Civil War, that I wanted to share because primary sources are always interesting and I thought that this is a great look into “waving the bloody shirt”, the post-war political practice of making emotional appeals to avenge the Confederates’ actions during the war.quote:LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FELLOW CITIZENS AND CITIZEN SOLDIERS: -- I am opposed to the Democratic party, and I will tell you why. Every State that seceded from the United States was a Democratic State. Every ordinance of secession that was drawn was drawn by a Democrat. Every man that endeavored to tear the old flag from the heaven that it enriches was a Democrat. Every man that tried to destroy this nation was a Democrat. Every enemy this great republic has had for twenty years has been a Democrat. Every man that shot Union soldiers was a Democrat. Every man that denied to the Union prisoners even the worm-eaten crust of famine, and when some poor, emaciated Union patriot, driven to insanity by famine, saw in an insane dream the face of his mother, and she beckoned him and he followed, hoping to press her lips once again against his fevered face, and when he stepped one step beyond the dead line the wretch that put the bullet through his loving throbbing heart was and is a Democrat. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38809/38809-h/38809-h.htm#link0002 Kevin DuBrow has a new favorite as of 09:55 on Mar 24, 2020 |
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Mar 24, 2020 02:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:The Guard in Rome never really became the ruling class. They had influence but never really took the last step for whatever reason They had a lot of leverage in the Empire given that emperors who displeased them had a tendency to...uh...not survive long. You had to keep the Praetorians happy if you wanted to remain breathing. It seems that state of affairs suited them just fine. Granted the military is also part of what bankrupted the Roman Empire when it started to fall apart; they wanted more and more money which caused obvious problems. The fall was a complicated issue with a lot of causes but that was a huge contributor. One of the reasons elite military units tend to take over and get a lot of political power is because, well, what are you going to do? Kick them out? Then you have an elite fighting force you'll probably have to fight and no elite fighting force of your own. This is why lifetime, career soldiers actually become a huge problem when you have them in large enough numbers but with no way out of the military and no pensions. Better to be an elite military unit in charge of things than an elite military unit with no paycheck. In the case of the Janissaries this is why they were comprised entirely of kidnapped boys (Christians, typically) that were trained hard and then forbidden from marrying or learning trades. Once you were a Janissary you were a Janissary for life. This lasted a while but as all things do it eroded over time until they weren't the elite fighting force they used to be. Originally though being a Janissary was a pretty sweet gig in a lot of ways. While they were legally slaves they were actually paid a salary and well taken care of; far better than a common peasant or soldier would expect. They got a ton of status as well as influence. The snag was that they became too big and too powerful over time. While originally they were a modernized fighting force that was a poo poo storm to deal with they became complacent and tended to throw a revolt if you tried to change them in any way, even if that meant modernizing their tactics. This is part of why the Ottoman Empire had problems late in its existence; their formerly elite fighting force was behind technologically, not as elite as they used to be compared to other countries, and tended to throw rebellions for any excuse they could find. Kind of hard to fight off invaders when your "best" soldiers are a bunch of disloyal pricks who might just decide to fight you instead of the other team.
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Mar 24, 2020 03:46
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3D Megadoodoo posted:What's with the ladles though? Other than the picture you posted, what ladles were you referencing
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Mar 24, 2020 04:17
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Milo and POTUS posted:Other than the picture you posted, what ladles were you referencing Well you could start with that one.
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Mar 24, 2020 04:26
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  My guess would be company cooks for their unit.
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Mar 24, 2020 04:30
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The symbolism of cooking and eating together was significant to the Janissaries. The leader of an orta (analogue to a battalion) was called chorbaji, literally “soup maker”. It’s still used in Turkish as slang for “boss”. Some variants of their headgear included spoons as part of their military dress. The symbolic kazan (cauldron) was important to an orta, similar in some ways to a Roman legion’s Aquila. Tipping it over was a sign of discontent and the phrase kazan kaldırmak, “raising the cauldron” is still used to mean mutiny or rocking the boat. It goes deeper than this. For example, some of the officer ranks went into more kitchen roles like “scullion” or “baker”, and the Sultan could be referred to as “the father who feeds us”. It’s definitely worthy of an effort post by someone who knows the topic. Kevin DuBrow has a new favorite as of 05:10 on Mar 24, 2020 |
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Mar 24, 2020 05:02
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Kevin DuBrow posted:The symbolism of cooking and eating together was significant to the Janissaries. The leader of an orta (analogue to a battalion) was called chorbaji, literally “soup maker”. It’s still used in Turkish as slang for “boss”. Some variants of their headgear included spoons as part of their military dress. The symbolic kazan (cauldron) was important to an orta, similar in some ways to a Roman legion’s Aquila. Tipping it over was a sign of discontent and the phrase kazan kaldırmak, “raising the cauldron” is still used to mean mutiny or rocking the boat. Did they kill dudes with the ladles though?
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Mar 24, 2020 05:09
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Brawnfire posted:
If I know my French, the dude with the ceremonial frying pan is the Captain of the entire Janissaries. I love the symbolism, I would love to know more! Now I kinda want to see a military junta which uses cooking utensils for decoration, instead of the usual fascist eagle-themed regalia 
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Mar 24, 2020 07:22
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3D Megadoodoo posted:Did they kill dudes with the ladles though? Honestly considering how heavy duty those things look to be, odds are decent that at least once some poor schmuck had their skull turned concave with one of those
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Mar 24, 2020 10:56
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ToxicSlurpee posted:One of the reasons elite military units tend to take over and get a lot of political power is because, well, what are you going to do? Kick them out? Then you have an elite fighting force you'll probably have to fight and no elite fighting force of your own. This is why Saudi Arabia has a special branch of the military specifically dedicated to protecting the royal family from the other branches of the Saudi military, as a precaution against a coup.
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Mar 24, 2020 13:37
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drrockso20 posted:Honestly considering how heavy duty those things look to be, odds are decent that at least once some poor schmuck had their skull turned concave with one of those  Kevin Vickers
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Mar 24, 2020 18:02
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barbecue at the folks posted:If I know my French, the dude with the ceremonial frying pan is the Captain of the entire Janissaries. Yup, it says: Cazân (kazan), cooking pot of the Janissaries Cachic-dâr (not sure what the modern transliteration is), bearer of the pot ladle or Tchorbâdjy (chorbaji), captain of the Janissaries Cythereal posted:This is why Saudi Arabia has a special branch of the military specifically dedicated to protecting the royal family from the other branches of the Saudi military, as a precaution against a coup. It's also why rulers tend to recruit foreigners as part of those elite troups. No local ties of loyalty.
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