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DA2, despite being one of my favorite bioware games, is not a good game. The wave based combat meant the improvements to combat didn't matter because every fight was a slog as more invincible assholes showed up and posed before you could hit them. The endlessly reused dungeons were ugly and boring, and just made me hate sidequests. However it had some of my favorite companions and my single favorite companion affection mechanic of any bioware game, a story I really liked for being fate of the city instead of fate of the world, and it generally just is enjoyable to me when ever I'm not dealing with the fact that there are 6 enemy types and 8 areas to fight in.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:02
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KittyEmpress posted:DA2, despite being one of my favorite bioware games, is not a good game. The lovely combat encounters and reused dungeons is why I wish BioWare encouraged modding to the extent that Bethesda does. Sure, Bethesda also releases buggy shithouses, but then they release the Creation Kit and people can go nuts. If we could have built new dungeons and hand placed enemies I think the game would have much, much more staying power.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:26
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Tallis will 99 percent be a companion in DA4, by the by Part of a questline at the very least
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Apr 16, 2020 21:28
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there's a youtube clip out there of felicia day flirting with tallis with her own player character. and that has always struck me (impressively) as one of the most narcissistic things someone could ever accomplish.
Zane fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Apr 16, 2020 |
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Apr 16, 2020 21:35
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Pattonesque posted:Tallis will 99 percent be a companion in DA4, by the by I mean, it would make sense. She'd be a spy in Tevinter I imagine. Helping us bring the wisdom of the Qun.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:39
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NikkolasKing posted:I mean, it would make sense. She'd be a spy in Tevinter I imagine. my thought is that there are four characters who are definitely carryovers into major, non-cameo roles: Tallis Dorian Scout Harding Charter First two have obvious connections, the second two get mentioned all the time as potential Leliana successors in codex entries and Charter is (according to the wiki) in like half the comics and books since DAI
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Apr 16, 2020 21:44
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Zane posted:there's a youtube clip out there of felicia day flirting with tallis with her own player character. and that has always struck me (impressively) as one of the most narcissistic things someone could ever accomplish. Look Joe Zieja played female Byleth to romance Claude(himself) and that was hilarious so if he can do it she can too. Also when it comes to the Qunari they wrote themselves into what feels like a corner because of how divisive people feel over it. Like I think it's interesting, but it's also absolutely horrific to me. I like seeing them around but I can't picture a scenario I'd side with them.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:45
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I find it interesting that Solas is so against the Qun in DAI. I'm guessing it's something to do with their indoctrination methods being similar to what the elf gods did with their slaves, though maybe without the lyrium facial tattoos.
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Apr 16, 2020 21:55
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Plucky Brit posted:I find it interesting that Solas is so against the Qun in DAI. I'm guessing it's something to do with their indoctrination methods being similar to what the elf gods did with their slaves, though maybe without the lyrium facial tattoos. the one thing Solas loves above anything else is asking questions, which the qun aren't really about on an individual level
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Apr 16, 2020 21:57
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Plucky Brit posted:I find it interesting that Solas is so against the Qun in DAI. I'm guessing it's something to do with their indoctrination methods being similar to what the elf gods did with their slaves, though maybe without the lyrium facial tattoos. The Qunari are also rabidly anti-magic and want to totally seal the world off from the Fade. It's something you find on the random papers during Trespasser. Even without his new goal of restoring the Fade, he wants to preserve magic and ancient power as much as he can. And in general even without the Fade nonsense how the Qunari handle their mages is the most horrific out of any culture we knew of in Thedas.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:01
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Eimi posted:Look Joe Zieja played female Byleth to romance Claude(himself) and that was hilarious so if he can do it she can too. I think it's a mark of BW's writing talent that they made something like the Qun so appealing to so many. quote:It's a pity, because DA2 at least seemed to indicate that they understood what people like about the qunari: their harshly ascetic code, but also the way that code seems genuinely appealing and fulfilling for those who adhere to it, and the way their meditations on the nature of reality inform their society and conduct. The Arishok took up the ideas Sten explored and did a lot with them. I'm sure I've said before: what's great about the Arishok is the extent to which he is able to make religious fanaticism and asceticism seem genuinely appealing. The Qun is profoundly illiberal, and its logic is opposed to pretty much everything any modern Western person is raised to believe in (individualism, freedom, ambition, democracy, etc.), but the undeniable charisma of the Arishok combined with the chaos and degeneracy of Kirkwall manages to make the Qun actually look quite tempting. It also raises questions on things like persona autonomy or sovereignty. Do you remember the qunari mage in DA2 who chooses to commit suicide? You can try to stop him and he adroitly points out how you're trying to force your cultural values on him. "I do not wish to die, I wish to live by the Qun." Forcing him to live would be to make a slave of him in your own way and "for his own good" just like the Qunari did. It really made me stop to think and I let him go through with it. Some people really would find a meaningful, happy existence under a totalitarian regime like the Qun's. Is that wrong? I'm not sure but I think that's a good question to ask. We take too many things as a given without ever wondering Why they are right or wrong.
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Apr 16, 2020 22:13
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The mage stuff aside, if the Qun got rid of the super-harsh 'born into your job, die in your job' caste system it would be pretty A-OK tbh. Remember, we only really see warriors and Ben-Hassrath, and both very much on duty in a foreign power, which is hardly representative. Perhaps during off-time people chat poo poo just like anywhere else. Maybe some members of society are encouraged to debate the finer points of the Qun at length? If they did it justice, exploring an actual functional Qunari city in peacetime and seeing how it works day-to-day for your average fucker would be very cool so long as they're not super lazy with it which lol Bioware in 2020 .
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Apr 16, 2020 22:39
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The problem with me about the Qunari isn't the converts, for they joined willingly with an understanding of their new society, but the baker in Par Vollen. The soldiers and spies can interact with places they can flee to if they decide the Qun is not for them, but what of someone in the center of their empire? There's not much hope for someone who rejects the Qun. Which is my own feeling for these extreme cults. I have no problem with someone choosing them, but how do you ensure that there is an escape valve for those who do not choose them?
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Apr 16, 2020 23:01
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I seem to remember someone saying that the retcons in Inquisition about the Qun having indoctrination camps and thought police etc were specifically put in because the writers were horrified that people actually liked the Qun in DA2 and wanted to 'correct' that. Which if true I always thought was a troubling prospect since it kind of pre-supposes the superiority of western ideals and culture and makes me think they aren't really going to ever portray the Qun in a credible light to the player going forward. Especially since it seems most likely the next game is going to be a Solas vs Tevinter vs Qun showdown. I could be misremembering that but they do seem to go out of their way to villainise the Qun in that game.
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Apr 16, 2020 23:15
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Eimi posted:The problem with me about the Qunari isn't the converts, for they joined willingly with an understanding of their new society, but the baker in Par Vollen. The soldiers and spies can interact with places they can flee to if they decide the Qun is not for them, but what of someone in the center of their empire? There's not much hope for someone who rejects the Qun. Which is my own feeling for these extreme cults. I have no problem with someone choosing them, but how do you ensure that there is an escape valve for those who do not choose them? Sure but you can say that just as easily about literally any type of social organisation both in fiction and reality. People just don't think the same way about the place they were born because that's the 'default' for them, but to the outsider Orlais OR THE USA HO HO HO might seem incomprehensibly bizarre, cruel, and cult-like.
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Apr 16, 2020 23:21
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Hell, I think Orlais and Ferelden are incomprehensibly bizarre, cruel, and cult-like. My greatest problem with Inquisition's writing is that I wanted to side with Solas or the qunari and burn everything to the ground.
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Apr 16, 2020 23:36
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Nephthys posted:I seem to remember someone saying that the retcons in Inquisition about the Qun having indoctrination camps and thought police etc were specifically put in because the writers were horrified that people actually liked the Qun in DA2 and wanted to 'correct' that. Which if true I always thought was a troubling prospect since it kind of pre-supposes the superiority of western ideals and culture and makes me think they aren't really going to ever portray the Qun in a credible light to the player going forward. Especially since it seems most likely the next game is going to be a Solas vs Tevinter vs Qun showdown. I'm also worried they might reduce the Qunari to a super evil caricature in DA4 but I gotta have hope. Really, between the Murder Happy Slavers, the Totalitarians and the sorta benevolent but really incompetent, I'm not sure which they would narratively favor.
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Apr 16, 2020 23:44
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I'm pretty sure the reeducation camps were there with Sten, though it's been forever since I fully talked to him. I guess I'm also just going off the assumption that how else would they keep their super strict regimented society strict and regimented?
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Apr 16, 2020 23:48
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The re-education camps were mentioned in interviews with Gaider and Mary Kirby before DA2 released, so they aren't a retcon in reaction to people liking the Arishok at the very least.
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Apr 16, 2020 23:52
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Nephthys posted:I could be misremembering that but they do seem to go out of their way to villainise the Qun in that game. I'm not sure if the first part is true, but the Qun (and the Qunari by relation) in Inquisition are definitely presented as more negative than before, but I don't think in a particularly forced way. We just finally are seeing the targets and negativity of the Qun, through watching the Iron Bull be told that everyone he's met and bonded with is worthless and should all die or else. But we see these traits in Origins too. Sten literally believes that without his sword he has lost all use and admits his people would prefer to execute him than to accept that he could have failed. The Arishok in 2 is... sorta understandable because holy gently caress Kirkwall is a mess, but he still goes on a religious rampage and murders the leaders of a foreign nation because someone (cough cough, Isabelle) stole his religious book, and he sees no fault in what he is doing. The Qun was always presented as very overbearing and terrifying. It's just still very attractive to some people in setting because you don't have the issues that are everywhere else: Orlais has noble chevalier who literally have the right to rape and murder the peasantry, they freely are allowed to do it. Everywhere has rampant ethnic slums for elves, where again: the nobles are able to murder rape and do whatever they want to people in them, as seen in the City Elf Origin. In Tevinter you are either a mage, a mage's valued slave aka semi-person, or a slave-slave. Either of the latter two can become blood magic sacrifices at the drop of the hat. The Free Marches are a bunch of city states that are constantly in flux, where money buys anything, including human (or more cheaply, elven) lives. The Qun tells you 'you are a baker' and you bake. So long as you keep baking for your life, you live a comfortable enough life where no, the nobility cannot come in and rape or murder you for no reason with no punishment. Just.... you will be killed if you refuse to bake. Is that better? Probably not. Thedas seems like it kinda just sucks.
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Apr 16, 2020 23:52
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I have no idea who Tallis is but since you've mentioned Felicia Day I assume she's from DA2 DLC. Normally I'd say there's no danger of a DLC person being in the game later but then Anders and Cory himself prove me wrong. Weird how bioware does that really.
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Apr 17, 2020 00:32
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Taear posted:I have no idea who Tallis is but since you've mentioned Felicia Day I assume she's from DA2 DLC. yeah she's an elven qunari spy who recruits Hawke and co. into a heist. Her actual goal is a list of qunari spies that Orlais had acquired. she seems like a no-brainer for DA4 'cause of the Tevinter connection ("I just know we haven't seen the last of Tallis" was a line in Hawke's journal IIRC), the fact that she's guaranteed to be alive and unromanced, and the fact that Felicia Day is famous enough to be marketable but not so much that having her voice lines would break the bank. but then again this is Bioware 2020
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Apr 17, 2020 00:57
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KittyEmpress posted:The Qun tells you 'you are a baker' and you bake. So long as you keep baking for your life, you live a comfortable enough life where no, the nobility cannot come in and rape or murder you for no reason with no punishment. Unless the Qun tells you it's your job to be raped, as a Tamassran or whatever they're called. I don't think we learned about those until DAI and Iron Bull presenting it as a chill thing really grated.
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Apr 17, 2020 00:59
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Oh dear me posted:Unless the Qun tells you it's your job to be raped, as a Tamassran or whatever they're called. I don't think we learned about those until DAI and Iron Bull presenting it as a chill thing really grated. I do feel like that was a deliberate thing - showing us how he's brainwashed as much as he says he doesn't feel he is.
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Apr 17, 2020 01:09
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Pattonesque posted:yeah she's an elven qunari spy who recruits Hawke and co. into a heist. Her actual goal is a list of qunari spies that Orlais had acquired. She's also in contact with the qunari mage boss ofTrespasser. You can find a note from him to her. I always took that as a definite sign they are at least leaving the door open for her return.
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Apr 17, 2020 01:25
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Oh dear me posted:Unless the Qun tells you it's your job to be raped, as a Tamassran or whatever they're called. I don't think we learned about those until DAI and Iron Bull presenting it as a chill thing really grated. Without getting too cultural relativist they seem way more complex than that, and while there are some sexual aspects the job isn't portrayed as a exploitative one - much the opposite. There's certainly no lack of consent implied unless I missed something, though I guess that concept is much more ambiguous when it comes to the Qun. Again, like most of their society it's alien both to us and to the rest of Thedas, but I've felt that for the most part it has been consistently written well enough to be radically different in terms of social organisation to anywhere else and distinctly threatening, but never outright moustache twirling evil in the way Corypheus as an individual was, and sometimes actively compelling. I also liked what they did with Tevinter in DA:I, where Dorian talks about how most of the blood magic and slavery still happens but on the hush hush, and that there is major opposition and lots of good people there too. I really appreciate what they've done to create believable living civilisations with murky histories just beyond the borders of the gameworld, to the point that Ferelden and Orlais and even to an extent the free marches seem pretty bland by comparison. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll do the setup justice in DA4 but given Andromeda I'm refusing to get hyped.
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Apr 17, 2020 01:40
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of course there's a lack of consent. the qun decides you're going to be a sex worker and your options are go along with it or go to a reeducation camp and get brainwashed into going along with it
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Apr 17, 2020 01:53
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My point is that the job itself isn't sex work in the sense that we understand it, but religious work that occasionally involves sex as one part of it. There have been plenty of human societies that have understood the perception and meaningfulness of intercourse in different ways, many of which have incorporated it into various ceremonies and rituals. That totally changes the gender power dynamics at play, and you should think about consent with that in mind. That's not to say you're wrong - they are forced into a job and expected to perform the associated tasks, which involves sex - but it's absolutely possible to imagine an alien civilisation in which that carries none of the baggage it does for us, and the respected women priests who occasionally gently caress people consider doing so no more an indignity than the paperwork they have to do afterwards. I don't ever remember seeing anything that suggested that they had to get with anyone who asked, anyway. They are the powerful party in the arrangement. e: I just took a step back and realised I was arguing about the sexual politics of a fictional society depicted in the videogame 'dragon age', in the middle of the night, on the somethingawful.com forums, as a 30 year old man. I think it might be time for me to hit the hay and have a good old soul search lmao
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Apr 17, 2020 02:28
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Dont forget about the inability to withdraw consent even if they initially had it either.
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Apr 17, 2020 02:28
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The Qun loving SUCKS but they are right about mages and the Fade, gently caress magic.
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Apr 17, 2020 02:34
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Admiral Ray posted:The Qun loving SUCKS but they are right about mages and the Fade, gently caress magic. drat straight. I remember in the DAO lp that ran here I had a running counter of the number of major plot events caused by mages vs total major plot events. It did not paint a pretty picture. It's really funny how much bioware wanted you to side with the poor, oppressed mages when the actual game events suggest the opposite.
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Apr 17, 2020 02:41
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FoolyCharged posted:drat straight. I remember in the DAO lp that ran here I had a running counter of the number of major plot events caused by mages vs total major plot events. Bioware talked about it regarding DA2 at least: They knew the natural reaction about Templars was... bad. No one sided with them, most people wanted the mages to be free and hated Templar. So their solution was that all but 2 mages in the game are blood mages or abominations of some type. Even with this, a vast majority of people sided with the mages over the Templars. Edit: I'm one of them. Elf mage warden + mage hawke + mage elf inquisitor is my go to 'main' playthrough. Go mages. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 02:47
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I side with the templars only on the basis of loving drat It Anders, and that I always play Hawke as killing every blood mage she sees. That whole ending sequence is hilariously rushed no matter who you side with. Given I've only beat DAI twice once as a mage and once as a rogue as much as I'd like to view the canon as a mage, mage sucks in that game compared to rogue. Otherwise yes mages all the way.
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Apr 17, 2020 02:50
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See, I don't get how you hate mage in Inquisitor so much. I had so much more fun going mage than my second (warrior) playthrough. I'm not gonna talk at all about my Rogue playthrough because that was my 100% run and I hated it.
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Apr 17, 2020 02:53
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if i were a mage in that world I'd use blood magic and gently caress as much poo poo up as I could too. they'll make you tranquil if you look at a templar funny, so if you're gonna break the rules (and it's near impossible not to) you might as well go all the way with it.
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Apr 17, 2020 02:57
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KittyEmpress posted:See, I don't get how you hate mage in Inquisitor so much. I had so much more fun going mage than my second (warrior) playthrough. I'm not gonna talk at all about my Rogue playthrough because that was my 100% run and I hated it. I just felt like I was doing no damage. They erred on the side of CC and support. Like oh you set up all the cool combos but that doesn't feel as cool to me as it does to detonate them. It just felt like a huge downgrade in power from DAO and 2. Granted for me the ideal mage is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hk2DcFB3LU 
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Apr 17, 2020 03:01
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I went Knight Enchanter, and while I wasn't doing the most damage, being literally immortal and then turning invisible and blowing up someone from the inside out was really fun. It felt like it did more damage while in the same 'role' as my Warrior (who went Champion, to be fair) while also overall having more ability to survive. I don't remember any fights really being 'hard' or even long on my Knight Enchanter. Except maybe the dragon fights but that was more because dragon fights.
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Apr 17, 2020 03:07
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Challenge wasn't my problem, tedium was. things would just take ages to die and I felt I was contributing gently caress all, and so just felt weak.  Fighting a randomly agroed wolf for five minutes or whatever just was not my idea of a fun game.
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Apr 17, 2020 03:08
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I looked up 'Tamrassan' in the DA Wiki and the only reference to sex I was able to find was that they choose who is allowed to have children. Their main role is childrearing. I remember the sex worker talk but I think it was a different role? This is just pendantry, it doesn't change any of the greater points.
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Apr 17, 2020 03:14
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KittyEmpress posted:The Qun tells you 'you are a baker' and you bake. So long as you keep baking for your life, you live a comfortable enough life... Just.... you will be killed if you refuse to bake. Is that better? Probably not. Zane fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Apr 17, 2020 |
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Apr 17, 2020 03:17
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