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Germany's good war is the Napoleonic war, I think. The German historiography IIRC gives a lot of credit to Blucher at Waterloo.quote:Under what definition would even 100% nationalization of your economic resources (note, not even the USSR achieved this, domestic consumption of GDP was reduced to only 52% during the peak of the 5 Year Plans) not be a liberal democracy if you still hold regular free elections and uphold the rule of law? Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:39 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 12:31
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Xakura posted:(Edit: ^^^^ Not to say serbia was "good guys", but once the war broke out, they are not fighting a war of profit and conquest.) Serbia was pretty explicitly fighting a war of "Everything in southeast Europe is actually Serbia" with a side of genocide against everyone who disagreed, and had been for the last few decades, they just didn't want A-H to start a fully fledged war at this particular time.
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May 2, 2020 12:35
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Fangz posted:
It's more that in a planned economy power always falls to the executive conducing the planning and even with the best of intentions nobody has ever proposed a model that would allow democratic representatives to exert any meaningful control over it. If you hold free and fair elections that enable elected representatives to gather and then do absolutely nothing because the state decision making apparatus has divorced them from the process then you aren't a democracy.
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May 2, 2020 13:10
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Fish of hemp posted:I watched the They shall not grow old and it got me thinking that how is the First World War remembered in Germany? Because I think that you could think of it as a Germany's "good war" because everyone was fighting for their Empire and imperial profits so hardly anyone can say they were the good guy. Or is it thought of simply as a precursor to the second? If you mean in the general population I don't think many people care. Definitely nothing approaching the poppy thing the anglos do. Feeling bad is covered by WW2 so it's unclear what its function could even be. Occasionally there's a Red Baron movie with dashing doomed pilots and cute nurses and all that schlock. HEY GUNS posted:what the HELL. you were around when it was around! how do you forget an entire nation (kinda)! Far away, never did anything important? Idk  I mean you know from your time here how GDR cultural memories are still basically nonexistent in unified German cultural institutions, and "German" history in TV shows or whatever is basically always implicitly understood to be FRG history. It just sorta slips my mind.
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May 2, 2020 13:25
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:If you nationalize, or even semi-nationalize, 90% of your economy you are no longer a liberal democracy. For Iraq, doing this for the oil sector would mean that 60-95% of the economy be under public ownership, it would be ridiculous to call that a liberal democracy, the state controls the economy! You know that Iraq is a real country right? With an oil industry that was nationalised in the 70s, just like every other opec member. Iraqi government spending is 32% of GDP, compared to around 50% for most European countries, and 35% in the USA. There is absolutely no way you could argue that the Iraqi state controls 100% of the economy.
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May 2, 2020 13:38
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Alchenar posted:It's more that in a planned economy power always falls to the executive conducing the planning and even with the best of intentions nobody has ever proposed a model that would allow democratic representatives to exert any meaningful control over it. Doesn't that describe most Liberal Democracies now being governed by Neo-Liberal principles? Neo-Liberalism whole thing is the government gets out of the way of the market. Elected Executives and representatives are giving up decision making to the Market. The Market is undemocratic and controlled by Capital. So basically there are no Democracies right now?
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May 2, 2020 13:43
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Cythereal posted:Serbia was pretty explicitly fighting a war of "Everything in southeast Europe is actually Serbia" with a side of genocide against everyone who disagreed, and had been for the last few decades, they just didn't want A-H to start a fully fledged war at this particular time. France and Russia had agreed to territorial expansion prior to the war started. Both had agreed in principle that a crisis in the Balkans would be used to spark the war. Their thinking was it was perferable to start the war while the UK was aligned with them. Belgium was one of the most brutal colonial powers.
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May 2, 2020 13:47
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axelord posted:France and Russia had agreed to territorial expansion prior to the war started. Both had agreed in principle that a crisis in the Balkans would be used to spark the war. Their thinking was it was perferable to start the war while the UK was aligned with them. Found von Moltkes alt account. Belgium being poo poo does not excuse Germany from invading a neutral country. France and Russia planning on using a crisis in the Balkans to expand their territory does not excuse Germany from using a crisis in the Balkans to expand their territory.
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May 2, 2020 14:09
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Mr Enderby posted:You know that Iraq is a real country right? With an oil industry that was nationalised in the 70s, just like every other opec member. Iraqi government spending is 32% of GDP, compared to around 50% for most European countries, and 35% in the USA. There is absolutely no way you could argue that the Iraqi state controls 100% of the economy. Iraq wasn't a liberal democracy at the time. axelord posted:Doesn't that describe most Liberal Democracies now being governed by Neo-Liberal principles? That's not what neoliberalism means, but this whole discussion is way too D&D at this point.
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May 2, 2020 14:31
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axelord posted:Doesn't that describe most Liberal Democracies now being governed by Neo-Liberal principles? No. We should stop this derail but the obvious mistake you are making is that 'The Market' is not a real person. There is a difference between 'not being free' (no we aren't free under Capitalism, we're all subject to a myriad of relationships and power dynamics) and 'being the subject of an individual with enormous concentrated executive power to make decisions about every aspect of your life'.
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May 2, 2020 14:58
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Xakura posted:Found von Moltkes alt account. Belgium rolling into the Congo chopping off hands. Belgium: "This is awesome" Germany rolling into Belgium shooting civilians. Belgium: "drat this sucks" World War 1 was more of a war of choice. Germany wanted to fight now because they were afraid a more powerful Russia in the future that would put them at a disadvantage later. France and Russia wanted to fight now because they had Britain on their side. Britain was fixated on Germany being their main threat. All sides planned to take territory from the losers when they won. If was a stupid war that got a lot of people killed and lead to a even more devastating war.
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May 2, 2020 15:02
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I was playing Battlefield 3 and there was a throwaway line of dialogue from this FBI / DHS agent about how he lost his buddies to a rocket attack in Bosnia, and it got me thinking: did the US ever get involved in any of the Balkans conflicts in the 90s where you would have had A. American boots-on-the-ground, and B. in close enough proximity to forces hostile to them that they could have been hit by a rocket attack, that would have made this line of dialogue plausible? If so, which conflict/which deployment might that have been? I ask because I was under the impression that most US involvement was in the form of air strikes, and that even ground troops were "UN peacekeepers" and wouldn't have involved US military servicemen per se.
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May 2, 2020 15:36
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axelord posted:Belgium rolling into the Congo chopping off hands. Belgium: "This is awesome" If you think that the German invasion of Belgium was linked in any way to the brutality of Belgian colonialism in the Congo or that random Belgium civilians had it coming because of said colonial brutality, I have some bad news for you about Germany's general outlook on Africa and its policies there.
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May 2, 2020 15:39
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axelord posted:Belgium rolling into the Congo chopping off hands. Belgium: "This is awesome" This is not how cause and effect work.
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May 2, 2020 15:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:I was playing Battlefield 3 and there was a throwaway line of dialogue from this FBI / DHS agent about how he lost his buddies to a rocket attack in Bosnia, and it got me thinking: did the US ever get involved in any of the Balkans conflicts in the 90s where you would have had A. American boots-on-the-ground, and B. in close enough proximity to forces hostile to them that they could have been hit by a rocket attack, that would have made this line of dialogue plausible? This is a question about special forces. You aren't going to get a full answer for obvious reasons, but here's a quick google research result: https://fas.org/man/eprint/ramirez.pdf
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May 2, 2020 15:45
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Alchenar posted:No. We should stop this derail but the obvious mistake you are making is that 'The Market' is not a real person. Markets are people my dude. A person decides to sell, a person decides to buy, there's no magic just very real people making decisions. In Markets there are people with a lot of power and people with very limited power. Jeff Bezos has more power in the Market than all other American but a few with comparable wealth. When elected government officials give up power in favor of "Market based solutions" they are abdicating power to a market dominated by powerful concentrations of wealth. I don't think it's as different as you do. FDR during WWII had that power you are talking about, but he was elected. No one voted for Bezos.
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May 2, 2020 15:46
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Grenrow posted:If you think that the German invasion of Belgium was linked in any way to the brutality of Belgian colonialism in the Congo or that random Belgium civilians had it coming because of said colonial brutality, I have some bad news for you about Germany's general outlook on Africa and its policies there. German children didn't deserve to starve to death, Belgium civilians didn't deserve to be slaughtered, the people of the Congo didn't deserve to be brutalized. No sympathy for the Belgium or German State.
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May 2, 2020 15:55
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gradenko_2000 posted:I was playing Battlefield 3 and there was a throwaway line of dialogue from this FBI / DHS agent about how he lost his buddies to a rocket attack in Bosnia, and it got me thinking: did the US ever get involved in any of the Balkans conflicts in the 90s where you would have had A. American boots-on-the-ground, and B. in close enough proximity to forces hostile to them that they could have been hit by a rocket attack, that would have made this line of dialogue plausible? This is, of course, the list of acknowledged operations. I'm sure the snake-eaters were having a good time over there and that feels like a more likely career path into FBI Interrogator than being part of a MASH team.
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May 2, 2020 15:57
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axelord posted:Markets are people my dude. A person decides to sell, a person decides to buy, there's no magic just very real people making decisions. When people talk about market based solutions there is a wide range of what they can be talking about, with many *specifically* advocating enhancing the competitiveness of the market by tackling powerful concentrations of power and wealth, offering support to startups and smaller players, and punishing bad actors. You are describing anarcho-capitalism. The market != private sector. Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:23 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 16:17
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Alchenar posted:This is a question about special forces. You aren't going to get a full answer for obvious reasons, but here's a quick google research result: https://fas.org/man/eprint/ramirez.pdf FrangibleCover posted:Some US servicepeople were deployed as part of UNPROFOR and subsequent operations in Bosnia but I can't find any records of casualties. Of course, if he was with UNPROFOR then he might well have been friendly with some of the 160ish international casualties or even some locals. Thank you both. This is, of course, a work of fiction, so I wasn't really expecting an exact match, but that's good enough for me.
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May 2, 2020 16:26
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gradenko_2000 posted:I was playing Battlefield 3 and there was a throwaway line of dialogue from this FBI / DHS agent about how he lost his buddies to a rocket attack in Bosnia, and it got me thinking: did the US ever get involved in any of the Balkans conflicts in the 90s where you would have had A. American boots-on-the-ground, and B. in close enough proximity to forces hostile to them that they could have been hit by a rocket attack, that would have made this line of dialogue plausible? Yes, there were a decent number (thousands) of US soldiers and marines over the years of IFOR and later KFOR who would have been actually on the ground in the Balkans in a position where an RPG was a legitimate threat, however, I'm not sure if there were ever casualties along those lines. There were some tense confrontations and other NATO members did have some combat, but the only US ground casualties I can remember were from accidents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twq5x5i1JPc This is pretty in-depth for IFOR, and I assume you can find something similar for KFOR.
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May 2, 2020 16:33
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Fangz posted:When people talk about market based solutions there is a wide range of what they can be talking about, with many *specifically* advocating enhancing the competitiveness of the market by tackling powerful concentrations of power and wealth, offering support to startups and smaller players, and punishing bad actors. You are describing anarcho-capitalism. The market != private sector. True. Especially in a military thread, it's very true that markets and governments interact in ways that aren't cleanly reducible to slogans or ideology. Pick your favorite stupendously wealthy billionaire, he or she is probably that wealthy due to ownership of a corporation, which is basically a legal structure that the government invented and could change. Like taxi medallions or transferrable machine guns or security clearances, the value in the market is not necessary coming purely from private forces.
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May 2, 2020 17:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:To include actual content, here's a picture of the most handsomest admiral ever: Parry, riposte! 
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May 2, 2020 17:48
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I think the Danes or Swedes got themselves into a tank battle during the Yugoslavian breakup Lots of stuff that I can't remember reading in the news about at the time e: Every time I try to link to the wiki article the scandi crossed through "o" gets broken, but Googling for "operation bollebank" with a normal "o" works just fine. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 13:18 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 18:11
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Fangz posted:this whole discussion is way too D&D at this point.
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May 2, 2020 18:12
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glynnenstein posted:Yes, there were a decent number (thousands) of US soldiers and marines over the years of IFOR and later KFOR who would have been actually on the ground in the Balkans in a position where an RPG was a legitimate threat, however, I'm not sure if there were ever casualties along those lines. I think in the context of Bosnia a Rocket Attack is more likely to refer to some description of MRL, like a Plamen or perhaps one of the concealable Oganj rocket launching trucks that could have a canopy pulled over the launcher to make it look like a standard covered truck. The use of massed LATW against fortifications or infantry positions is much more of a GWOT thing.
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May 2, 2020 18:24
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FrangibleCover posted:Point of order, there was no risk whatsoever from RPG attack during the Yugoslav Wars. They didn't have them! Yugoslav light anti tank weapons were mostly derived from Western designs with marginal Soviet Bloc influence. The Yugoslav army didn't have them. But the moment the Balkan wars started the whole region was flooded with surplus weapons from the ex-USSR. Milita groups were using RPGs all over the place.
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May 2, 2020 18:33
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aphid_licker posted:If you mean in the general population I don't think many people care. Definitely nothing approaching the poppy thing the anglos do. Feeling bad is covered by WW2 so it's unclear what its function could even be. Occasionally there's a Red Baron movie with dashing doomed pilots and cute nurses and all that schlock. quote:Far away, never did anything important? Idk HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 19:22
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anyway, it came from peer review. i always get some version of this: 1. i loved your writing, it's vivid and immediate. it's "real." 2. remove the words that made it read this way. had a guy get mad over "macho" once. in this article, they want me to remove "bent" as a synonym for "corrupt"
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May 2, 2020 19:34
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S-51 and other open high caliber SPGs Queue: SU-76I, T-26 with mine detection equipment, T-34M/T-44 (1941), T-43 (1942), T-43 (1943), Maus development in 1943-44, Trials of the LT vz. 35 in the USSR, Development of Slovakian tank forces 1939-1941, T-46, SU-76M (SU-15M) production, Object 237 (IS-1 prototype), ISU-122, Object 704, Jagdpanzer IV, VK 30.02 DB and other predecessors of the Panther, RSO tank destroyer, Sd.Kfz. 10/4, Czech anti-tank rifles in German service, Hotchkiss H 39/Pz.Kpfw.38H(f) in German service, Flakpanzer 38(t), Grille series, Jagdpanther, Boys and PIAT, Heavy Tank T26E5, History of German diesel engines for tanks, King Tiger trials in the USSR, T-44 prototypes, T-44 prototypes second round, Black Prince, PT-76, M4A3E2 Jumbo Sherman, M4A2 Sherman in the Red Army, T-54, T-44 prototypes, T-44 prototypes second round, T-44 production, Soviet HEAT anti-tank grenades, T-34-85M, Myths of Soviet tank building: interbellum tanks, Light Tank M24, German anti-tank rifles, PT-76 modernizations, ISU-122 front line impressions, German additional tank protection (zimmerit, schurzen, track links), Winter and swamp tracks, Paper light tank destroyers, Allied intel on the Maus , Summary of French interbellum tank development, Medium Tank T20, Medium Tank T23, Myths of Soviet tank building, GMC M10, Tiger II predecessors, Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.H-J,IS-6, SU-101/SU-102/Uralmash-1, Centurion Mk.I, SU-100 front line impressions, IS-2 front line impressions, Myths of Soviet tank building: early Great Patriotic War, Influence of the T-34 on German tank building, Medium Tank T25, Heavy Tank T26/T26E1/T26E3, Career of Harry Knox, GMC M36, Geschützwagen Tiger für 17cm K72 (Sf), Early Early Soviet tank development (MS-1, AN Teplokhod), Career of Semyon Aleksandrovich Ginzburg, AT-1, Object 140, SU-76 frontline impressions, Creation of the IS-3, IS-6, SU-5 Available for request:  Myths of Soviet tank building: 1943-44 IS-2 post-war modifications NEW  HMC M7 Priest  15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf) Oerlikon and Solothurn anti-tank rifles  Lahti L-39  AMR 35 ZT
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May 2, 2020 19:39
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HEY GUNS posted:had friends tell me you were undefeated in the field. Anyway, if Germans didn't have a romanticised view of WW1 why does the thread get into an argument about whether Germany started WW1 every three months?
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May 2, 2020 19:42
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HEY GUNS posted:anyway, it came from peer review. i always get some version of this: Hegel keep this draft for the inevitable pop history book.
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May 2, 2020 20:06
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Jack2142 posted:Hegel keep this draft for the inevitable pop history book.
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May 2, 2020 20:11
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FrangibleCover posted:WW1: Germany's Vietnam It's probably not the Germans starting that argument.
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May 2, 2020 20:13
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HEY GUNS posted:you don't see all the awful little small town lists of names as public remembrance? i kind of do. i wouldn't call ww1 your "good war" because yall aren't allowed to think of wars like that any more (that's definitely the wars against Napoleon, which invented romantic nationalism. Please pay no attention to all the germans who fought for him, and did not believe in romantic nationalism), but I have definitely seen memorials, and had friends tell me you were undefeated in the field. I know those memorials ofc but I've never seen anyone interact with one. quote:they don't have your memories either, you know. it's an entire other country over there with an entire other past, and their own opinions. come hang out eeeehhhh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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May 2, 2020 20:38
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aphid_licker posted:eeeehhhh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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May 2, 2020 20:45
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HEY GUNS posted:solyanka and pelmeni are good, and beer is 45 cents a pint Was zum Fick how does that work?? e: the beer thing
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May 2, 2020 20:55
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aphid_licker posted:Was zum Fick how does that work?? you buy a beer
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May 2, 2020 20:55
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HEY GUNS posted:i'm not going to remove it. i'm going to write a detailed paragraph explaining why not. Are you going to preface it with "with all due respect,"
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May 2, 2020 21:09
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HEY GUNS posted:you go to the grocery store Ahhh, at ze Supermarkt. Yeah that's just normal.
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May 2, 2020 21:18
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