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Now this is what a Pyrrhic victory looks like: The terradons survived by running away, at the end I had the DS at 129 health and 4 units of temple guards (a mod flavour but pretty much the same) at around 200, plus the Slann and steggy at 300 or so.
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May 7, 2020 00:02
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Mandalore's video inspired me to start a Gelt campaign I hadn't tried Empire since game 1 and these new mechanics are very well done, really makes you feel like you're stuck in the fantasy HRE also Gelt is a lot more fun of a lord than I expected even with Mandalore hyping him up a bit, I don't really like generic human factions in scifi and fantasy games but Gelt is just weird enough to keep it interesting
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May 7, 2020 00:55
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Ammanas posted:greenskins have one of the worst rosters in the game. they have no anti large, their heroes and lords suck, their monsters suck. their LLs are bad (grimgor which is just loving ridiculous, he should be a top tier foot combat lord) to middling (wurrzag). the only non-suck elements are black orcs and orc shamans. Greenskins have a diverse and effective roster. Their anti-large is rusty arrers and archer firing line, or a combination of spider and giant (or doom divers for eliminating flying monsters). Or skulkers with some sort of fast punishing unit. Grimgor isn’t bad, just slow (he needs a snare or a taunt or something) and he’s still a decent, cheapish support lord able to pull 3-4 waaughs in a match. I take him against dwarfs on ladder. Foot lords keep getting better for the price. The strongest point of an Orc list is blorcs, yes, but they also have the best skirmishers in the game for their price. Even the cheap wolf riders are incredible value for chasing off routers. As I said, the biggest hole in their roster is a support unit that can buff boyz into more of a buzzsaw without having to rely on big waagh. And better campaign mechanics, their campaign mechanics are boring as gently caress
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May 7, 2020 01:57
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Sure, but I think most people are grading them on how they stack up in single-player, where the cap of 20 units is more important than whatever money cap is applied to the match. Orcs may be cost-effective in a single fight, but they really struggle against the expensive mid- and end-game stacks that most other factions can put together.
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May 7, 2020 02:19
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Krazyface posted:Sure, but I think most people are grading them on how they stack up in single-player, where the cap of 20 units is more important than whatever money cap is applied to the match. Orcs may be cost-effective in a single fight, but they really struggle against the expensive mid- and end-game stacks that most other factions can put together. Yeah, a typical mid to late campaign dwarf army will absolutely wipe the floor with anything the orcs can fit into 20 slots. It's not that hard to have 1 well-put together dwarf army clown on 4+ stacks of greenskins. MP and SP are 2 different animals.
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May 7, 2020 02:25
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I hope we don't get the pump wagon or (probably renamed) spear chukka. The last thing Greenskins need are a low tier chariot and a low tier artillery. Hell, I've never even once used the ballista you get from the Dwarf DLC.
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May 7, 2020 02:28
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Vargs posted:I hope we don't get the pump wagon or (probably renamed) spear chukka. The last thing Greenskins need are a low tier chariot and a low tier artillery. Hell, I've never even once used the ballista you get from the Dwarf DLC. I agree with this, and the thing the Orcs need the most is more replenishment. For a faction that is supposed to spend most of its time in enemy territory raiding/sacking/conquering, they have the worst replenishment in the game. The new greenskin hero has to have replenish attached to it.
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May 7, 2020 02:42
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Vargs posted:I hope we don't get the pump wagon or (probably renamed) spear chukka. The last thing Greenskins need are a low tier chariot and a low tier artillery. Hell, I've never even once used the ballista you get from the Dwarf DLC. in the campaign the ballista is useful as a cheaper and less terrain dependent large killer. on legendary the biggest constraint is the economy. last i looked dwarfs aren't that great in multiplayer, so i don't know if it has a similar cost-effective niche.
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May 7, 2020 02:56
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Greenskins have a diverse and effective roster. Their anti-large is rusty arrers and archer firing line, or a combination of spider and giant (or doom divers for eliminating flying monsters). Or skulkers with some sort of fast punishing unit. Grimgor isn’t bad, just slow (he needs a snare or a taunt or something) and he’s still a decent, cheapish support lord able to pull 3-4 waaughs in a match. I take him against dwarfs on ladder. Foot lords keep getting better for the price. yea ok this is first and foremost a single player game and they suck* in campaign *you can still beat the poo poo outta the ai but the fun factor just isnt there unlike many other factions
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May 7, 2020 02:56
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Aurubin posted:in the campaign the ballista is useful as a cheaper and less terrain dependent large killer. on legendary the biggest constraint is the economy. last i looked dwarfs aren't that great in multiplayer, so i don't know if it has a similar cost-effective niche. i have recruited ballista once at their release and never since theyre trash
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May 7, 2020 02:58
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Aurubin posted:in the campaign the ballista is useful as a cheaper and less terrain dependent large killer. on legendary the biggest constraint is the economy. last i looked dwarfs aren't that great in multiplayer, so i don't know if it has a similar cost-effective niche. I've never really seen any artillery on any faction as a great anti-large solution. Quarrellers (against low armor) or Thunderers will do a better job while also being far, far more effective against everything else. Giants do get a bit hosed up against artillery since they move so slowly and get staggered with every hit, but giants suck rear end and get demolished by even the shittiest ranged infantry so who cares
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May 7, 2020 03:02
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Bolt Throwers should totally inflict like, a speed debuff on enemies or something; as it is, Quarellers are a way better use of their slot for that tier. For the next tier, Cannons just straight up obsolete them.
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May 7, 2020 03:06
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AnEdgelord posted:Mandalore's video inspired me to start a Gelt campaign link to this? fill my soul with warhammer youtubes
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May 7, 2020 03:13
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Mother fucker god drat it I just want to play without having to wait for my loving mods to update loving hell Steam let me freeze updating until the mods catch up this is loving stupid gently caress. 
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May 7, 2020 03:14
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Rogue Idol may be a good candidate for proximity buffing nearby Greenskins
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May 7, 2020 03:24
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What mods are people running these days? Any recs? Playing m&b2 got me horned up for this again but I haven't played for a couple months
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May 7, 2020 03:42
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Ammanas posted:link to this? fill my soul with warhammer youtubes https://youtu.be/WA_iXKhoujA
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May 7, 2020 03:44
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Dandywalken posted:Rogue Idol may be a good candidate for proximity buffing nearby Greenskins i mean it looks a lot like the treekin model it also looks a lot like the fallen angels from Noah and those things fuckin owned less arms of course
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May 7, 2020 04:40
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Vargs posted:I've never really seen any artillery on any faction as a great anti-large solution. Luminarks can be pretty vicious
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May 7, 2020 04:44
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Yeah you eat one of those to the face and it'll take a real chunk out of big stuff and lords. Just as well as the fuckers are useless in the field otherwise.
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May 7, 2020 04:49
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Vargs posted:I've never really seen any artillery on any faction as a great anti-large solution. Really accurate artillery that packs all its damage into one shot can work. Carronades, luminarks, the lizardman laser on the back of a bastiodon (ark of Sotek I think?), lightning cannon, etc. The bigger problem is that all of these are really narrowly-applicable units that are sometimes totally useless and difficult to use under the best of circumstances, while massed handguns/crossbows don't have those problems and still do the job. And, sometimes, you have enemies like cygors or stegadons or necrofexes that might just straight up win a firefight with your direct-fire artillery anyway.
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May 7, 2020 04:54
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Solar Engine Bastiladon. Also Warp Lightning Cannons make up with raw power and volley fire what they lack in accuracy. That's what Jezzails are for!
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May 7, 2020 05:08
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Its also important to realize that you use different kinds of anti-large strategies for different kinds of large units. What works against lizardmen dinos wont necessarily work against massed Bretonnian cavalry and vice versa.
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May 7, 2020 05:10
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AnEdgelord posted:Its also important to realize that you use different kinds of anti-large strategies for different kinds of large units. What works against lizardmen dinos wont necessarily work against massed Bretonnian cavalry and vice versa. Again, bullets are the exception.
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May 7, 2020 05:43
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Ammanas posted:yea ok this is first and foremost a single player game and they suck* in campaign oh in that case they should get spammable ranged armor piercing. just give them bad moon flash gitz from 40km reskinned rat gunners. in other words: Cease to Hope posted:Again, bullets are the exception.
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May 7, 2020 06:52
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:oh in that case they should get spammable ranged armor piercing. just give them bad moon flash gitz from 40km reskinned rat gunners. in other words: You say that as if it wouldn't be amazingly fun.
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May 7, 2020 07:18
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Turning orcs into skaven does not sound fun. I wish the developers cared about campaign balance half as much as multiplayer balance. Either make goblin-tier units viable through technology or embrace multiplayer balance and don't make the 20 unit limit the single most important aspect of combat.
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May 7, 2020 07:49
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I mean, the biggest balance-issue campaign-wise is just battle AI in my experience, especially when combined with poo poo like corner-camping in the case of range-heavy armies. The AI gets easily baited by fliers/fast cav to split its army even when it's smart enough to not send its faster units in to die alone before the rest can catch up. That's before even cheesier poo poo like sieging armies never coming out of the fortress and just letting you pick it off at your choosing after having a single tanky character drain 100% of the defending AI's ammunition. I'm not sure improving melee Orc units is gonna meaningfully help any of these issues.
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May 7, 2020 08:32
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I mean, it's fine if orcs are kinda bad against shock cavalry. It's really more that they're kinda bad at everything, and their main gimmick - running lots of bad troops - is punished so severely by TWW2's current army structure. The other armies that run lots of chaff also have some sort of elite element that does all of the actual work. Skaven and vampirates have their guns, counts and TKs have their monsters and cav/chariots, etc. By late in the game, the elite element takes over your entire army and you run these ridiculous doomstacks made up of all vargheists or you just shoot the enemies off the board (or autoresolve because autoresolve loves guns) before they get to do anything. Orcs, in theory, need to be making value trades with their hordes of dudes, because their elites aren't supposed to be better than actual elite troops and they don't have some sort of devastating gimmick other than more mediocre 8dudes. The problem is that "more dudes" currently wrecks your economy and runs up against the 40 unit cap.
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May 7, 2020 08:39
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https://twitter.com/totalwar/status/1258033949693132800?s=20 Another mention of the word 'horizon'.
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May 7, 2020 09:08
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Cease to Hope posted:They're very cheap shock chariots with randomized movement in WHFB. i enjoy and hate how people talk up gw's rules in chats about tww because gw's rules sucked, and they kept around a bunch of random poo poo in their mechanics for all their games despite it being done in an incredibly boring and bad way. im glad skaven poo poo doesnt explode because its exactly one of those design concepts that sounds so fun and wacky in concept and then in execution its something that gets really trite and irritating in a hurry, and often ends up reducing the game down to essentially glorified yahtzee. if you want random dice bullshit done okay its blood bowl and even then you see the inherent weaknesses in assuming unmitigated randomness means "chaotic" or "interesting" because the dominating way to play blood bowl if you want to win, is to play like a gigantic panzy, never doing anything risky instead of just doing the thing that is mathematically most optimal. But I don't think they really need a thing they're best at. Generalist factions are fine too; its never all brutal or all cunning, its brutally cunning or cunningly brutal. But to be a good generalist faction they need to have actual threatening tools in their kit like the Empire has; they have too many obvious weaknesses they can't really cope with and their campaign setup makes it all the worse. and to be fair, black orcs are very good but, well, they're melee infantry so unexciting and limited Mercrom posted:I wish the developers cared about campaign balance half as much as multiplayer balance. Either make goblin-tier units viable through technology or embrace multiplayer balance and don't make the 20 unit limit the single most important aspect of combat. I'd mind the 20 unit limit less if reinforcements weren't implemented so horribly. Some of the battlefields also just end up a little too cramped when you have 40 units a side (and its a pain to goddamn manage in real time). I'm not sure upping the card limit would really help much, since the problem with the strategy of "put all your best units into one army and stomp the gently caress everywhere with it" is endemic to basically every single 4x game that doesn't do something like 1 unit per tile or adding an actual logistic system where problems scale exponentially rather than linearly when you try to put all your eggs in one basket, and both of those have their own problems (ai making GBS threads itself, never being fun, etc). i'm all for being an immense dick and like, removing replenishment outside of stances (including ranged ammo), making said replenishment cost money depending on troop cost, and making troop upkeep go up as you put more units in your army but I think people might have a problem with that. I do think the whole "techs give unit buffs" ends up being pretty poo poo since they're not very well balanced and a lot of tech trees seriously gimp your ability to actually specialize or give you choices. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 09:31 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 09:27
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Insurrectionist posted:I mean, the biggest balance-issue campaign-wise is just battle AI in my experience, especially when combined with poo poo like corner-camping in the case of range-heavy armies. The AI gets easily baited by fliers/fast cav to split its army even when it's smart enough to not send its faster units in to die alone before the rest can catch up. That's before even cheesier poo poo like sieging armies never coming out of the fortress and just letting you pick it off at your choosing after having a single tanky character drain 100% of the defending AI's ammunition. I'm not sure improving melee Orc units is gonna meaningfully help any of these issues. If you want a strategy game where that isn't true your only option is chess. It's still something you can balance around.
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May 7, 2020 09:38
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Tiler Kiwi posted:But I don't think [orcs] really need a thing they're best at. Generalist factions are fine too; its never all brutal or all cunning, its brutally cunning or cunningly brutal. But to be a good generalist faction they need to have actual threatening tools in their kit like the Empire has; they have too many obvious weaknesses they can't really cope with and their campaign setup makes it all the worse. every faction needs a defining gimmick, though, and orcs' only defining gimmick in fantasy is the exact sort of randomized bullshit you identify (imo correctly) as not terribly fun and correctly dropped from TWW2. it creates an identity crisis, because the only thing remaining that orcs do well is not only a thing other factions also do well, but (as i noted in a later post) a thing other factions stop doing because of how armies are structured in this game. orcs would be better if their late game were big blocks of black orcs and that actually worked, but it wouldn't be very interesting. it also wouldn't leave much room for chaos warriors to ever be interesting again, although I guess that's not a TWW2 problem.
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May 7, 2020 09:41
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This game is way, way better with the mod that gives armies a cost limit just like in multiplayer. Solves the 20 unit issue pretty handily and it really should have been part of base TWW from the beginning. CA already even fuckin' balances around it. Although speaking of balancing around multiplayer, I do take another huge issue with it. In mp if you win, you win. Doesn't matter if you have nothing but a single half-health skink remaining. This sort of win in single player, however, is completely unsustainable. It drastically lowers the usefulness of high-risk units and melee troops in particular. You are incentivized to make army builds that can come out victorious with little to no losses, which tends to mean shooting everything to death. This only gets exacerbated on higher difficulties thanks to the AI melee stat buffs and the need to never take casualties because they will pump out 20 stacks for every 1 of yours. This hurt factions like greenskins even more since they are so melee-focused.
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May 7, 2020 09:46
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would it change orcs much if your WAAAAGH level just, like, changed your unit size? i.e. standard amount of 120 boyz at 50 waaagh, but an army at full waaagh has e.g. 180 boyz in a unit, representing more dudes showing up to fight no more units to control, more trash orcs to die, more health/damage/staying power on all your units without a buff being applied. they would also need a replenishment buff to ensure your momentum can keep going, i guess.
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May 7, 2020 09:49
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One problem with the (many) evil swarm factions in warhammer it seems is that every swarm faction's backstory is it's the swarmiest swarming swarmer but someones gotta be the best at it and someones gonna be the worst at it.
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May 7, 2020 09:59
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I've started a Markus campaign on the vortex map. drat the first few battles are really tough, teying to hold a line against saurus warriors with unbuffed T1 empire troops is hard.
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May 7, 2020 10:15
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:One problem with the (many) evil swarm factions in warhammer it seems is that every swarm faction's backstory is it's the swarmiest swarming swarmer but someones gotta be the best at it and someones gonna be the worst at it. The other swarm factions at least have some other major gameplay facet going for them. Skaven swarm poo poo and blow everything up with the most powerful ranged units in any Total War. Vamp Counts swarm poo poo and then dive in with the strongest lords/heroes/magic in the game. Orcs swarm poo poo and....that's about it, really. Maybe plink away with some ultra trash archers or send in awful boar cav to die. If you want to get saucy you can spice it up with Little Waagh magic which isn't actually coded to do anything but lower your winds of magic pool as far as I can tell.
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May 7, 2020 10:16
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Arcsquad12 posted:Solar Engine Bastiladon. speaking of, i'm playing an Eshin Vortex campaign and it's incredibly satisfying to watch Repanse get brained by a Jezzails-WLC wombo combo while henri gets shanked to death by Snikch and his buddies edit: i know it's kind of silly to field a jezzails AND WLC, but it felt thematic to have a jezzails in an assassin army. I run a warlock engineer to boost my gutter runners and I felt like he needed a friend, so he got to bring his WLC TheHoosier fucked around with this message at 11:23 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 11:17
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:would it change orcs much if your WAAAAGH level just, like, changed your unit size? i.e. standard amount of 120 boyz at 50 waaagh, but an army at full waaagh has e.g. 180 boyz in a unit, representing more dudes showing up to fight It'd probably cause some peoples computers to melt.
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May 7, 2020 11:33
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